Pin, Spider questions

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

WOW.

-adam

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No need for that.....we all make mistakes or misunderstand things at times.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Super is not really a genetics term..its a snake breeder's term, bnut its a good term......its a term that describes the appearance of a snake. (It describes phenotypes not genotypes).

A couple of other definations:

Allele: Version of a gene
Phenotype: Appearance or trait of an organism
Genotype: The specific composition of alleles for a give gene pair or set of
gene pairs (i.e. Pp or SsPp)


Hetrozygous (adl.)-having two different alleles for a given gene pair (Ss)
Homozygous-having two of the same allele for a given gene pair (SS or ss)

Dominant-Only Need one copy of the Gene to look different than normal (Ss)
recessive-need to copies of the gene to look different than normal (albinos for example aa)


Super is used when the homozygous dominant genotype looks different than the hetrozygote. This occurs with co-dominant genetics.

SuperPastel occurs with the homozygous dominant genotype (PP) of the Pastel allele. Because the (PP) genotype is visually different from the hetrozygous pastel genotype (Pp), the prefix Super- is applied to this appearance.

In dominant genetics the dominant homozygote (SS) looks no different than the hetrozygote (Ss).

This means that you can never be 100% certain with simple breeding experiments that you have a homozygous spider. You could breed a normal to a spider and see if you only got spiders year after year.

If you got 3 clutches which had all 8 spiders you could be pretty statistically confident that you had a Spider with a homozygous dominant genotype (SS).

The chance of not producing a normal from a Ss x ss in 24 offspring would be over 1 in a million.

By now someone ethier has a spider that only produces spiders or we dont fully understand the genetics of the trait.....(ie something else is going on so that the SS genotype is not produced)

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I know this- i refer to it as super.. .....

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

I'm saying maybe they arent idoits for giving him "heat"...they are just curious and want to know. I agree with you that if they are making baseless accusations while pressuring him that this is a stupid behavior. But only if they are doing that.....everything else seems just like curiousity to me.

Not trying to twist your words...I think I just misunderstood them. Thanks for clarifying your position and what you meant.

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I hate to break it up, but I just had to add my thoughts in here too.

I think it's downright rude to harass anyone because you're 'curious'. These aren't your animals, and you have no right to expect all information to be given to you when you demand. If you are that curious, go and ask the source and accept the answer. Don't go posting all over about not knowing or playing devil's advocate with someone else's livelihood.

Of course that's just me........ :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by tigerlily

I hate to break it up, but I just had to add my thoughts in here too.

I think it's downright rude to harass anyone because you're 'curious'. These aren't your animals, and you have no right to expect all information to be given to you when you demand. If you are that curious, go and ask the source and accept the answer. Don't go posting all over about not knowing or playing devil's advocate with someone else's livelihood.

Of course that's just me........ :rolleyes:

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Sorry....no harm intended.

Hey I agree with you that most people are going to be very curious, but I don't think people go about the best way to assauge that curiousity. I think these questions are going to get asked, but a better way to ask would be ask the breeders directly. No not all information is going to cross our paths immediately, but it will come out eventually. In either case.... So much information is out there, and most of it from these big breeders who have pioneered this industry. It's not like they are forever withholding information, but dispensing it once they have a reasonable certainty.

Hey, what do I know. :confuzd: I'm still so new to this stuff, and am not an expert by any means. :oops:

I like pie!

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

This has been hashed over a couple of times on this site ... search around for the full discussion.

But, the bottom line is, spiders were proven in 99 ... but since it was a brand new project, only a small number of girls were produced ... you figure if all goes well 3 years to raise up the girls to breeding size ... producing the first possible super spiders in 2002 ... no visual, so now you gotta figure what's going on ... some of those spider (possible supers) were surely sold because Kevin was probably figuring that he just "missed" (who knows if the people that bought them actually bred them, killed them by accident, or what) .... keep some of those males and breed them in 2003 ... maybe there were all spider clutches in 04, and then again, maybe Kev just missed? ... maybe he picked the wrong males to breed ... since they all do look alike, it's not easy, and 1 year for males/3 years for girls isn't always as easy as it sounds ... neither is always getting clutches from the girls you put boys with ... or having enough girls to "dink" in large scale while you're still trying to run a business ... all that aside, if there were some all spider clutches from possible super spider males in 04 or 05, with all of the heat that Kev is getting from "internet experts" *cough*idiots*cough* would you think he'd be willing to come running to a message board and scream "I did it! I did it!" when he could have just gotten lucky in the odds game? OR do you think he'd want to do those same breedings again for another season just to be sure ... so that the "internet experts" don't have any "ammo" to fire off conspiracy theories with ... Based on the timeline ... if all went perfect, 05 or 06 should be that "second year" ... if "all went perfect" ... the rub about working with live animals, is that nothing ever works out how you'd like ... they always have a way of humbling you.

Just my :2cent:

-adam

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Thanks for the summary Adam, I should be more diligent in searching, as always appreciated :)

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It's not like they are forever withholding information, but dispensing it once they have a reasonable certainty.

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When has the pioneering breeder ever publicly broke any even marginally negative information about a morph first? If we waited for them we still wouldn't know about spinning spiders, pearl life expectancy, or het piebald indicators. What do we still not know about now?

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

When has the pioneering breeder ever publicly broke any even marginally negative information about a morph first? If we waited for them we still wouldn't know about spinning spiders, pearl life expectancy, or het piebald indicators. What do we still not know about now?

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Psstt.... We're talking about releasing information on a possible super spider. Nothing negative there. :rolleyes:

Hey Bryan, I like pie too. I could go for some Chocolate Creme myself. :D

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

When has the pioneering breeder ever publicly broke any even marginally negative information about a morph first? If we waited for them we still wouldn't know about spinning spiders, pearl life expectancy, or het piebald indicators. What do we still not know about now?

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Who's "we"? ... do you own a spider, woma, or pied? Well, I do and I was given all of the scoop about each mutation at the time of my purchases ... the breeders obligations are to their customers first, and good breeders bend over backwards to make sure their customers are taken care of. So as far as information coming out, it did ... just because you specifically didn't get it or it wasn't released on a message board doesn't mean it's not out there. Believe it or not, the ball python world is MUCH larger than internet message boards ... over 1/2 of the top breeders in the biz don't even post on the internet ... so what does that tell you.

And what exactly do we know about het piebald indicators? That some hets have them and some do not but no one knows for sure in what ratio? That animals with the "marker" are sometimes normal? That CH imports come in from Africa every year with the “marker”? That the exporters in Africa that are breeding ball pythons themselves now and that know ball pythons better than any five US breeders put together totally ignore the “marker”? That even possible hets with the "marker" don't prove to be hets? That the 3 largest producers of pieds in the world can't even agree on what the "marker" may or may not be? That every breeder that has tried to prove out a het pied "marker" from possible hets has not been able to come up with anything conclusive? Yeah, that's good stuff! :sweeet:

Your best bet, if you're really "curious" as Mendel discussed above is to pick up the phone and call some of the big breeders ... they'll talk to you, for the most part they're all really great people! ... You'll definitely get a lot farther with a phone call than message boards. :sweeet:

-adam