Ball python neglect help

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

I was under the impression that most captive reptiles were calcium/ phosphorus deficient due to the inadequate uva/uvb light absorption from the sun. We provide artificial lighting to help supplement those reptiles that are diurnal so that the sub optimal calcium and phosphorus can be utilized. Ball pythons are underground and termite mound dwellers and are nocturnal so I don’t think they fall into the category normally. I thought the sunlight / artificial lighting was necessary for the uptake and utilization of calcium?

:cool:

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Well, I don't think it is true that "most captive reptiles were calcium/ phosphorus deficient ". Most are doing just fine. Maybe that's not how you intended that sentence to come out, though. ;)

Captive reptiles that do have hypocalcemia may indeed have it due to inadequate levels of Vitamin D, since D3 is necessary for dietary calcium absorption. Many, or even most, reptiles we keep in captivity can utilize dietary D3 well (strict herbivores tend to be exceptions; they don't seem to utilize dietary D3 well). Almost all captive herp species (even nocturnal ones, since cutaneous D3 production is probably a conserved evolutionary trait) can in fact use UVB to manufacture D3. The only exception I've read about are some species of Varanus that cannot quite make enough D3 from sunlight and need some in their diet, which they typically get in no short supply. Not all species have been studied on this, of course, not by a long shot. I personally think dietary dosing (when D3 needs to be supplemented, that is) makes infinitely more sense when possible, since it is cheap and easy and foolproof, none of which is the case with captive UVB. But that's another topic, maybe.

All of this, though, is independent of the need for a correct Ca/P ratio in food. UVB exposure will not produce calcium, and will not correct a dietary imbalance of calcium and phosphorus. All animals need a dietary source of the proper ratio of Ca and P, and also need adequate blood levels of D3 (either from the diet, or UVB, or both).

Reptiles that eat primarily whole rodent (or other whole terrestrial vertebrate) prey have no shortage of dietary D3, nor of calcium or phosphorus in a fairly acceptable ratio.

I think the part that worries me most is the fact that there's other animals involved. I hope that they at least come back relatively 'okay'. I wouldn't wish it on anything but I hope it's just a matter of neglect as opposed to neglect and infectious diseases on top of that.

I also have my fingers crossed for you that this guy will start getting some body weight back and that he comes back with some decent labs when he's well enough for them. Hopefully there's no long term damage to the liver or kidneys from the malnourishment.

Regarding the vitamins, while I do agree that most ball pythons are relatively good when they're on the correct size of properly raised feeder rodent... I think doing some minor supplements in this case will definitely be a benefit to help jumpstart this guy. Glad the vet is on board with that as well. Eventually he can probably be weaned off those as his meal size increases.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

Well, I don't think it is true that "most captive reptiles were calcium/ phosphorus deficient ". Most are doing just fine. Maybe that's not how you intended that sentence to come out, though. ;)

Captive reptiles that do have hypocalcemia may indeed have it due to inadequate levels of Vitamin D, since D3 is necessary for dietary calcium absorption. Many, or even most, reptiles we keep in captivity can utilize dietary D3 well (strict herbivores tend to be exceptions; they don't seem to utilize dietary D3 well). Almost all captive herp species (even nocturnal ones, since cutaneous D3 production is probably a conserved evolutionary trait) can in fact use UVB to manufacture D3. The only exception I've read about are some species of Varanus that cannot quite make enough D3 from sunlight and need some in their diet, which they typically get in no short supply. Not all species have been studied on this, of course, not by a long shot. I personally think dietary dosing (when D3 needs to be supplemented, that is) makes infinitely more sense when possible, since it is cheap and easy and foolproof, none of which is the case with captive UVB. But that's another topic, maybe.

All of this, though, is independent of the need for a correct Ca/P ratio in food. UVB exposure will not produce calcium, and will not correct a dietary imbalance of calcium and phosphorus. All animals need a dietary source of the proper ratio of Ca and P, and also need adequate blood levels of D3 (either from the diet, or UVB, or both).

Reptiles that eat primarily whole rodent (or other whole terrestrial vertebrate) prey have no shortage of dietary D3, nor of calcium or phosphorus in a fairly acceptable ratio.

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Ok, gotcha! The D3 is the necessary ingredient for the utilization and uptake of calcium. I know uvb / uva doesn’t produce calcium/ phosphorus it was my impression that the rays and exposure helped intrinsically for it to be utilized and remain at optimal levels. Thanks for the correction. So the calcium containing D3 is the one someone should look for? Or the one vet recommended.

UPDATE.. Nakoa is doing great
Had a weigh in at the vets today and has gone from 520 grams (how he even weighed this much we don't know) which was his weight on the day we picked him up to 551 grams so gaining weight at a nice steady rate can even see he has gained weight as his ribs ain't so visible they are still but there is clearly a little fat between his skin and bone now, he hasn't pooped yet but the vets did a ultra sound on him and doesn't see any reason why he shouldn't we just think his food right now he isn't producing much waste from it.
and as for himself he is definitely coming out of his shell more he has some attitude :D

We are thinking of ways for physio for him and came up with a idea of a pipe climbing frame padded so when he grips the padding will add to his grip so that once he puts a bit more weight on he can start building some muscle back, but its all looking good for him. They still wasn't comfortable taking blood from him yet as he is still very under weight and very delicate.

The bloods for the others all came back fairly ok other than lacking in nutrition they are clear of anything serious thank god and also seem to be clear of mites now to but still treating to make sure.

but il still keep updating on how Nakoa is doing and once he has some more weight il post some pics of him

Thank you everyone for all the helpful advice