Quick question for the breeders...

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mr~python,

What I meant by "pastel (het and homozygous)" was that both the heterozygous and the homozygous pastel genotypes have clear bellies.

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oh, ok. i thought so, just wasnt sure.;)

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But do try to avoid mixing the morph type descriptions with the word "form" as in "dominant form" and "co-dominant form"

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im pretty sure i said HET "form". it sounds fine to me.:)

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The het form of pastel is a visible pastel morph.

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i was under the impression that there wasnt a het form for a pastel and they were the het for a super pastel!! i thought the het form of a SUPER pastel was a visible pastel morph. are you saying if a breed a pastel and a normal i will get pastel "hets" and they will be visible pastel morphs?

you're starting to confuse me.

Sorry, the confusion may be over the word "pastel" being used to refer to an individual snake's appearance and also to the mutant gene that causes that appearance. The snakes with the pastel appearance (phenotype) are heterozygous for the pastel gene (genotype). They have one copy of the pastel mutated version of that gene and one normal copy of that gene.

If you say that a pastel is het for super pastel you are back to corrupting the meaning of the word heterozygous again. We are starting to realize that heterozygous doesn't mean normal looking gene carrier just because that's how it works out with recessive genes. But heterozygous also doesn't mean half way to another morph just because that's how it works out with co-dominant mutation types. What if some day a completely dominant mutation is proven? With the completely dominant mutation type the hets will look just like the homozygous mutant genotypes. The hets will not be halfway to another appearance.

What heterozygous really means is having an unmatched pair of whatever gene you are talking about. The pastel phenotype is heterozygous for the pastel mutation of the pastel gene because it has one normal copy of that gene and one pastel mutant copy.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

If you say that a pastel is het for super pastel you are back to corrupting the meaning of the word heterozygous again.

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how? thats what a pastel is, het for super pastel. isnt it?

Heterozygous is a genetic term and refers to a gene's genotype. So if you are using "het" and "pastel" together you are talking about the pastel mutant version of the gene rather than the "pastel" appearance. I suppose we could call it the "super pastel" gene rather than the "pastel" gene then it would work out that the pastel looking animals are het for the super pastel gene.

It's hard to know what to call a gene because we are usually talking about the phenotype. For example, if it turns out that mojave and lesser are at the same locus what should we call that gene?

Unfortunately without html code enabled I don't think I can post the updated spreadsheet of belly types here. I tried using “[“ instead of “<” but tables don’t seem to be an undocumented vB code like I had hoped. I'll try it out on another forum.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

Genetically speaking....the yellowbelly (het. ivory) really facinates me....it seems to 'bring' out or enhance anything.....then you get a crazying looking animal like a yellowbelly stipe....

Also, wasn't RDRs 'goblin marker' in the mix in some of his phantom breedings? I never hear to much about the chance of that being mixed in with the lucies somewhere.

Like Ken, I am trying to get a true grasp on this stuff ;)

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I think I read somewhere that the "Goblin Marker" was a het ivory (yellowbelly).. but of course, I'm not completely sure.

Back on the subject of Lucy's. It's truely amazing to me all of the different combos that can be made to come up with Blue Eyed Lucies. Just off the top of my head, I can think of five different combos. Of course, as Daniel says, the Lesser/Lesser seems to produce the most clean version of it... but there are many others as well.

The "hidden" gene that seems to be in Lesser sibs is amazing as well... what could possibly be in there... what is this hidden gene and how can it be used? And how can you tell which sib carries the hidden gene? If the hidden gene can somehow be used effectively, then its completely feasable that as soon as the lesser becomes more common (10 years or so), completely normal looking (and normal marketed) balls could pop out some amazing mutations that people never thought they'd get.

The "hidden" gene that turns a lesser into a platy is what I'm calling "dilute". Per the Hahaman theory all the normal looking offspring of platty X normal would have it and none of the lessers would have it (or they would be platys).

It looks like being homozygous for the dilute gene either isn't possible or it doesn't do anything major to the appearance. Given that being het for the dilute gene doesn't seem to do anything by it's self without being combined with lesser or butter (or perhaps other leucistic hets) it may well be that the homozygous dilutes are normal looking too. I don't know if RDR has sold any dilute hets or their descendents or any platy's (which are also dilute hets per this theory). However, given the "hidden" nature of this gene there may be other lines out there with it that will eventually be found by accident when breeding with lessers, butters, or possibly other mutations in the leucistic het group.

Dude, Update your website for crying outloud..