IHS - FBH - Spider Morph Ban & others

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril

I know the spider issue is separate since it's a neuro issues fully associated with the morph and proven to not go away with out-crossing. However originally albino boas were thought to be unhealthy, there were eye issues (missing eyes, bulging eyes), kinks, premature litters, albino females not producing... all things that would lead one to believe the morph is unhealthy. However years of out-crossing has stabilized the issues quite a bit and you hardly ever hear about these things happening and tons of healthy good litters have since been produced and female albinos breed now without issue. If, in the first 5 or so years of them being out, people all saw them as unhealthy would they have been 'banned'? What is the line of something being considered an 'unhealthy' morph? Can definitions change over time or once it's labeled bad - it's bad?
I'm simply asking because I think it's a very interesting discussion
:)

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This is why I specified never being able to be healthy. If it can be outcrossed and lessened/eliminated, then simply following responsible breeding is all that is needed. Just like registered dog breeds, many of the unhealthy breeds are now being bred for healthier standards, and unhealthy genetics are not bred for and looked down upon when they are (such as albino dobermans). Same should go with reptiles.

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Originally Posted by zina10

April, you are correct.

There are a lot of other "issues" with many morphs. Some internal and not readily seen.

The issue with albinos in Boas (and resulting morphs, like Sunglows) has been an ongoing one. I'm not sure what some breeders did, but I do know that quite a few animals got culled. It was the price to pay for the ones that were healthy and beautiful. But even throughout years of trying to eradicate that problem, it tends to linger from what I've been told. The "bad ones" usually just don't make it onto the market. Efforts are ongoing and reputable breeders do all they can to minimize this problem.

I stand by my opinion that people find it easier to disregard interference such as that, if it doesn't affect them directly. And I do stand by my opinion that interference such as that can grow and eventually affect more and more people. That is not fear mongering. It has already happened in other instances. While this is not a ban, yet, it is how these things get started. And who are we to say what is "worse" for quality of life? A spider with a wobble (and most aren't bad) or a animal with a kinked spine (ouch)? With eye problems, missing eyes, bug eyes, etc ? (remember, eye problems can be painful) Issues that come along with albinism? Reproductive issues? Genes that produce "lethals"? Genes with possible internal problems?

Its similar to actual laws and regulations that are passed. Some cities banned giant snakes. Of course that didn't cause a huge outcry, because ..its only "that" city. Its only giant snakes, and not every reptile keeper owns them. But then the laws changed. Suddenly its not just giants but constrictors. Or anything over 4 feet. And not just the city, but the county or other cities. Suddenly it affects more people but at this point, but it is getting harder and harder to fight this, because the stronghold has been achieved.

Personally, I do not own any Spiders anymore. I won't breed any. I owned a Bumblebee that was simply a beautiful and amazing Ball Python, no wobble seen, happy, healthy and a great eater. Many are just like that. Technically I have "no dog in this fight". I simply find it irrational they pick "one" morph with issues. Do it right, or don't do it. I can't agree with their ignorance.

However, in the end, this is just "my" opinion. And I respect that others don't share it. It would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything.
At least we all love and care for our reptiles, and that is the most important part :)

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I think you’re confusing an event banning certain animals to be sold with animals being banned. Just because those animals aren’t allowed in those specific events doesn’t mean they’ll be banned elsewhere or that any other animals will become banned. You’re not allowed to smoke in many public buildings in the US, but has that caused cigarettes to be banned? No. Because that is not the government, whether state, city, or federal, banning them. It’s privately owned businesses. Same deal here, and conflating the two is fear mongering.


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Originally Posted by CloudtheBoa

I think you’re confusing an event banning certain animals to be sold with animals being banned. Just because those animals aren’t allowed in those specific events doesn’t mean they’ll be banned elsewhere or that any other animals will become banned. You’re not allowed to smoke in many public buildings in the US, but has that caused cigarettes to be banned? No. Because that is not the government, whether state, city, or federal, banning them. It’s privately owned businesses. Same deal here, and conflating the two is fear mongering.


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No, I'm not confusing the two. I know its not the same as a general ban. My point was that things such as that get things going into that direction and that people that aren't affected by it may overlook such things UNTIL they become affected (when its an animal they own or desire).

Also, for example, the issues with albino boas has not been eliminated in all those years of trying to do so. Many animals suffered infections or were culled. Still are. Has it "lessened" ? It appears so. Or the animals with the problems aren't making it to the market. To be politically correct, those animals and resulting morphs should also not be bred. Or owned, if one is against suffering through breeding genetic faults..

And still, there are all the other morphs with "issues".

My "issue" is that they simply picked one out. That is being "ignorant" of the big picture.

But its becoming clear that we go in circles and we can just agree to disagree ;)

Here is a example of a "ignorant" law pertaining reptiles (and other rodent eating animals)

In the UK it is against the law to feed live rodents. I find that asinine to tell you the truth. Complete Bull Manure.
First of all, you can still kill the rodents around your house and business with all kinds of traps (not just live capture) and poisons etc. Or have companies come that will do it for you.

But feed an animal the mouse/rat it needs to survive? Now that is CRUEL !!! :rolleyes:

I don't even like to feed live, and I find that incredible ridiculous!! I used to rescue snakes and some of them absolutely needed some live feedings after recovery and until they gained enough weight until I could attempt to switch them to frozen/thawed.

Then there are hatchlings. Some of them are hard to get eating to begin with. A lot of them will downright refuse anything but live.


I'm willing to bet this "law" was applied to snakes/rodents after some private animal rights groups or organizations had a issue with the mean snakes killing the poor mice and rats. Next was more awareness to this. Most people don't care about reptiles, so they didn't fight it. It didn't apply to them, actually, they dislike snakes. And then it spread. Until the official law was applied to this. And here we go...


ps. I know that some people still feed live, or make exceptions. I don't know of anyone caught getting into trouble. But it IS per law forbidden!!

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Originally Posted by zina10

Here is a example of a "ignorant" law pertaining reptiles (and other rodent eating animals)

In the UK it is against the law to feed live rodents. I find that asinine to tell you the truth. Complete Bull Manure.
First of all, you can still kill the rodents around your house and business with all kinds of traps (not just live capture) and poisons etc. Or have companies come that will do it for you.

But feed an animal the mouse/rat it needs to survive? Now that is CRUEL !!! :rolleyes:

I don't even like to feed live, and I find that incredible ridiculous!! I used to rescue snakes and some of them absolutely needed some live feedings after recovery and until they gained enough weight until I could attempt to switch them to frozen/thawed.

Then there are hatchlings. Some of them are hard to get eating to begin with. A lot of them will downright refuse anything but live.


I'm willing to bet this "law" was applied to snakes/rodents after some private animal rights groups or organizations had a issue with the mean snakes killing the poor mice and rats. Next was more awareness to this. Most people don't care about reptiles, so they didn't fight it. It didn't apply to them, actually, they dislike snakes. And then it spread. Until the official law was applied to this. And here we go...


ps. I know that some people still feed live, or make exceptions. I don't know of anyone caught getting into trouble. But it IS per law forbidden!!

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I want to say a UK poster told us once that it wasn't strictly forbidden... They did have an exception for live-only feeders, but it was pretty harsh. I think he said you had to take the snake in to a vet and have them evaluate it to prove that it was loosing body condition and nothing else was to blame. Basically 'exhaust all other options' first. I agree that this law was obviously written by people that did not own reptiles and probably wanted to discourage ownership. And I'm sure it was backed by all the rodent groups, etc. They would never be able to convince the public poisoning and trapping pest rodents was wrong, but who cares about the snake owners / snakes (most people would probably say that it was good they starve).

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

That's the craziest thing I've ever heard, that would ban a large part of my collection LOL. I have a few spiders that are perfectly normal. They may as well ban every snake that the sponsors don't like, just go down the tables and pull them one by one LOL.

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Well as I understand things -they have banned all snake shows in the uk apart from ONE at Doncaster already !


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