New ball python over a year old and only 166 grams!

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Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

What the hell is maintainance fed mean? Sounds like a box store (which I don't even do):)

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Maintenance fed just means that when an animal is a few years old and out of it's 'growing' phase, you basically feed it enough to keep it healthy but not get obese. Problem with captive snakes especially boas who have a slow metabolism is that that 6' snake kept in that 4x2 cage has no real room to move around like in the wild where they would have to climb, swim, crawl and basically hunt for food and possibly go months without finding it. They would burn calories looking but in captivity, they dont need to do anything except sit there like a bump on a log waiting for that clockwork feeding to come around.

Same goes for a BP. They usually hang out in termite mounds and abandoned dens. So they literally hav2 choices, wait for dinner to wander in and pray they catch it or go out looking for it. In a cage, using energy to go out looking for dinner is pretty minimal since again, most people use very small cages for them. So they wait around. Well in the wild, I would imagine that dinner doesn't come wandering in like clockwork every week or 2 and is the optimum size. So you basically maintenance feed to basically do what mother nature does, only artificially.

And some guys will actually lower temps and quit feeding altogether for a few months for boas to simulate winter. Also heard its not bad for them to do that. My boas all live in an eternal summer though but I do tend to stretch their feedings out more in the winter. And for my BP, well she regulates herself. Last winter she quit eating for 6 months but managed to shed, poop and grow during that time haha. My boas do that too. In winter when I feed them less, they seem to shed more and grow more haha.

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Originally Posted by zina10

I think a distinction needs to be made!!

If there is a breeder that routinely and purposefully STARVES snakes or in any other form neglects them, sends out unhealthy snakes, lies, is dishonest, etc etc etc, then there is a problem. Even one single one of those things is a problem.

Has that been determined though ? Are all of the snakes from this breeder underweight, starved, sickly and neglected animals ?

Or is this particular hatchling one that didn't grow as fast , which there can be many reasons for, and those reasons don't have to be starving it, neglecting it, abusing it?

There are MANY terrible breeders out there. One only has to read the Fauna classifieds or Facebook FBI (feedback). The stories will make ones hair stand straight up.

I'm pretty sure I know which breeder is being discussed. ALL of my Desert Ghost animals have come from him. And I have no problem at all stating this. I have shared pictures and stories of all of my animals and have yet to hear that they look bad. I know for a fact they are amazing. Were they HUGE for their age ? Nope. Were they underweight or starved ? Nope. They are healthy, beautiful animals that are doing very well and are growing at a healthy rate, nothing stunted here.

Now, one could say I'm only speaking in that breeders defense because my animals are from there. But ...that is not my agenda. I don't have an agenda. I have several breeders I have bought from and that I trust and I am VERY VERY picky. I do my research. I have researched from years back. Spoken to other buyers. I have my own experience to fall back on. I don't owe that or any breeder anything, nor do I have undying loyalty to any one of them.

166 gr. IS small !!! However, the breeder HAD the size on the webpage. One has to take the time and ask the questions. There may be a reason it grew slower.

I'm also not saying that a breeder can't do something wrong to one person just because they've been good to others. I'm saying that determining whether a breeder is good or bad should depend on a whole lot more then one animal that is small for its size, esp. when that doesn't seem to be a common problem. People talk about bad experiences. Even if they only think they have been wronged. You find out real quick if someone does something wrong. This breeder has had a stellar reputation for well bred, nice and healthy animals and for not screwing people over. Would someone risk that by starving their animals knowing that buyers will talk about that? Maybe so, but doubtful.

Maintenance feeding is NOT starving. Its just an expression. All it means is that they are not trying to hurry the snake along. And no way would a snake in the wild grow at a rate then the ones in our homes do. There is a difference to feeding one to grow nice and slow and starving one. They look quite different from one another.

Power feeding is also an expression. People thought it meant to "force" the snake to eat more then it wants by "chain feeding". What it really means is to keep the snake growing at a incredible speed. It works with Ball Pythons, with Boas you will have them regurge and fail. Ball Pythons will grow quickly, but like Deb pointed out, it has been established through necropsies just how damaging it can be.

I'm not coming to the defense of THIS breeder. I'm saying to not throw anyone into a pot based on a expression and one small animal.

There are feedback pages. If someone feels wronged, they can certainly post on there. They can also question whether other people had a problem. At least in that way the breeder can present their side and other buyers can relate with their own experience. Who knows, maybe a pattern emerges in one way or another.


edited to say: Just want to point out one more time that maintenance feeding is not something that ends up with 166 gr. yearlings. All mine were bigger at that age. Obviously there was something else going on. A very small hatchling, slow to start, picky about particular food items, etc. Some take longer and then take off. This should have been discussed before the sale, that is for sure. Perhaps something can be worked out about returning the animal if there is dissatisfaction?

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Zina I love your post and it is very well written. I have no clue who this breeder is and I really don't care. My root question in this though is why didn't this breeder fully disclose all the information on this 166 gram snake when it was up for sale. It's not too hard to write in the sale description "This snake is small for it's age due to (blank)". Even if they don't know, put on the description "I have no explanation for it's smaller than average size and it feeds regularly once a week or whatever the time frame may be. Should the buyer have researched this snake before he bought it? In the world I wish we lived in no he shouldn't of had to. Unfortunately in this world we do live in yes he should have. To assume......well we all know how the saying goes. Will this snake grow up to be happy and healthy? Without a doubt yes but it's life up to this point sounds like it has sucked. I have no description for me to believe other wise.

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Originally Posted by Momokahn

Zina I love your post and it is very well written. I have no clue who this breeder is and I really don't care. My root question in this though is why didn't this breeder fully disclose all the information on this 166 gram snake when it was up for sale.

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The weight was listed in the sale the buyer assumed it was a typo.....

I'd also like to say that the seller was completely honest and upfront about the whole transaction, no deception at all. I'm happy with my purchase and received two beautiful snakes that are amazing. I was just shocked and surprised that he didn't feed them very much, that was totally unexpected. I just assumed that a big breeder like that would feed better and assumed the weights were just not updated. He was not trying to hide anything, these were his exact words, "we maintenance feed our hatchlings and feed them smaller meals over a longer period of time". Doesn't sound like a problem feeder to me, sounds like they just don't feed them very much.

Intersting informative thread. After reading this, I will confess that I am a "power-feeder" and I like to see my snakes eating relatively larger meals, relatively quickly. I only have one snake that is overweight and I bought her that way as an adult, and I have recently trimmed her down a bit by feeding smaller meals.

You regulars have all seen photos of my snakes, and with the exception of the Araza that I bought super-fat, none of my snakes are overweight. My snakes do grow rapidly from hatchlings to adults. I do not feel guilty one bit about "power-feeding". My first snake Ragnarok, I adopted on Craigslist, and he was tiny! He was emaciated and his scales were always dried out and poor shed. I "power-fed" him, feeding the maximum sized meals he could possible swallow, and feeding every week. His length grew extremely rapidly, and he went from 22" to 47" in 1 year!!!! I was really amazed, I asked the local reptile retailer about it, and he told me that Ragnarok may have been a lot older than he appeared, and once I fixed his husbandry and started feeding him thanksgiving meals:hungry: he grew fast, because of his older age, a "catch-up growth" so to speak. The reptile store owner that I asked about the growth, stated he had never heard of a ball python growing that fast, and was pretty amazed himself!

Anyway, my point is I am a power-feeder according to the above guidelines, and I feel good about it. Once they get to healthy adult size, then I go to 'maintenance feed" schedule of course. I would much rather be a power-feeder, than have troubled eaters that are emaciated or 1 year old snakes that look like newborns! That is SICK!

Another point I've been pondering.

We all agree, that without the "larger scale" breeders (and not talking of the puppymills for snakes here, just bigger then hobby breeders) we wouldn't have the availability of quality Ball Pythons and the affordability of many morphs. That is just a fact.

Unless one successfully runs such a larger breeding facility, the day to day challenges might not become clear until one grows to that size.

You have often said that you are rapidly expanding your collection of late, adding lots of animals to really take off as a larger scale breeder. Lets just say that you will have 35 breed-able females (all that just an example). Lets say they each lay a clutch of 7 eggs. You will have some with more eggs, some with less, some with none. But lets just say 7 eggs times 35.

You will have 245 hatchlings. Feeding them really is no problem once you breed your own rodents.

Lets say you feed them strongly, because you believe it raises their value and you like to feed them well. They grow rapidly, like strongly fed Ball Pythons do. While you are trying to sell them, you will have to quickly move them into Juvie tubs at the minimum. And they do not sell THAT fast. Many breeders have their hatchlings for a year OR MORE while promoting them.

Lets say despite aggressively promoting, selling (shows and online) you, like so many others, will still have quite a few left at a year old. Even if only lets say...100 of them. Remember, you are "new" and it takes a while for people to trust a "new" breeder with a un-known reputation. Selling is not as easy at all. Unless you start dumping them or their prices, which will cut into your profit and doesn't do a reputation well, either. So 100 of them will quickly need to go into adult tubs at the rate you fed them.

Do you have the space to house not only your adults, the hatchling racks but also adult racks for AT LEAST 100+ (most likely more) adult sized tubs for quickly grown juvies that reached 1000 gr before you could sell them? Plus some "juvie" racks...

Breeding animals at that level is going to be different then doing it as a hobby. That is why I rather not go into it full blown. But I have all the respect for people that DO do it, because it is thanks to them we have the availability and there are far less imports.

I do understand that there are challenges at that level, though. In order to do this "right" there is a LOT of time and investment, and I doubt the profit is as high as many that go into this think. At least not until they build up a reputation and a gorgeous collection of carefully picked out or home grown animals.

All it takes is bringing in one animal from a questionable source and not quarantine correctly. And an entire collection can be destroyed..

If a breeder (and I'm not talking about that breeder alone) has consistently and for many years produced and sold healthy and quality animals and has a slew of happy customers plus no drama/deception/lies and scams, then maintenance fed animals are nothing I worry about. Esp. with so many bad breeders around. Maintenance feeding is most likely far more "natural" to the snake, then the way we feed them once we bring them home, esp. the ones that get rushed along to get them up to breeding size.

Again, 166 gr. IS low, though. I don't think its typical for that breeder for them to be "that" low. At least not in my experience nor have I heard that complaint. That does not mean that Chris shouldn't have been concerned or disappointed in that fact. I'm not trying to downplay his right to be concerned. The breeder could have had more of an explanation since I don't feel that is exactly a "normal" weight for a maintenance fed yearling. Could it have been a late in the season '16 ? One that took off late? Again, that could have been explained better.

I'm happy for Chris that the animals appear healthy and beautiful and I'm looking forward to pictures. I'm sure he'll have them up to size in no time :)

Zina, you are my hero today!!!
Too many people dont want to look at or accept all corners of breeding and your last post shines a great light on what others refuse to contemplate.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Zina, you are my hero today!!!
Too many people dont want to look at or accept all corners of breeding and your last post shines a great light on what others refuse to contemplate.

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Aw, thank you ;)

That is because I'm a bit of a "over thinker". At night, when I can't sleep, I go through different scenarios in my head. All the implications of any situations, planning it out, thinking of all the different factors.

Plus I've been there before when starting projects (not animal breeding). Thinking "I can do that". Even going so far as to think "I can do this better". Only to figure out that there are things I haven't factored in and it doesn't quite work out like I've thought. And its a humbling experience. When animals or any living being is involved, it becomes even more critical to think through every little teeny tiny aspect. Rarely is there a "good profit" to be made with animal breeding. Its a fickle business and a lot can go wrong. Many come and go.

The ones that stick it out and make it a success (that incl. quality healthy animals and great business ethics) have my greatest respect.

Maintenance feeding I have no problem with, if everything else checks out and has checked out for many years.

But again, i do understand that Chris was taken aback. 166 gr. is on the small side, even if it was a late 16 hatchling and slow to start. But hopefully it will take off and turn into another prize animal in his collection :)

Well Zina I have had time to think about all of this and once again love your posts. Yes I do agree without the dedication of breeders, we wouldn't have these animals we so dearly care about. My passion for snakes runs very deep and at times maybe to deep.

Thanks again Zina and I :salute::salute: you. :)

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Originally Posted by Momokahn

My passion for snakes runs very deep and at times maybe to deep.

Thanks again Zina and I :salute::salute: you. :)

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No such thing as to deep when it comes to that :)