Spider with very little "wobble"

If you mean other animals when you say "outside this debate" then I beg to differ.

Quality of life. We can all agree that "Pain" lowers it. There are quite a few neurological abnormalities that cause NO pain. Aside from a balance problem. There are quite a few dogs and cats that suffer from such an abnormality, their gait is funny, they fall over at times, yet they are by all means happy go lucky animals and pain free.

Yet, there are many breeds (dogs, cats, horses) that are purposely bred to resemble a certain trait humans like, that have issues (even if not neurological) that affect quality of life.

For example in horses. There is a typical color that people strive for, but in order to get it you risk creating a "lethal white" foal. A foal that is born bright white and cannot live. They appear normal for a few hours or a day, then experience severe pain and eventually die or have to be put down. They cannot pass feces. Yet...breeders still breed with that risk, to get the color they want. Which people want to buy, despite knowing the risk.

Horses with HYPP. Muscle disorder that causes muscle spasms. People bred these horses on purpose, to get those giant muscled up horses. To this day some breeders continue with that gene and with the risk of horses that will keel over and die suddenly, making them dangerous to have around.

And then there are the dogs...

Start with the short faced breeds such as the english bulldogs. I have had 2 of them and I have chosen good breeders. No matter how good the breeder, that breed is plagued by issues that can (and does) greatly affect quality of life. The breathing is compromised and they cannot tolerate heat or over heating. They can't breed without assistance, they can't birth safely without a cesarean. They often have such tight screw tails that they either have to be removed or cause the dog pain and discomfort through out the life. Not to mention the many skin infections around the tight skin rolls. They often "lick the air" because their tail bothers them and they cannot reach it to "scratch the itch" or relieve their pain. The heavy skin folds around their eyes often cause problems with entropian, or they suffer from cherry eye. They are, from a medical standpoint, a mess. Yet, they are one of the most popular dog breeds and come at a high price. Most short faced breeds face quite a few problems that can and do cause pain and compromise quality of life.

Giant breeds that are purposely bred to be even bigger then they should be suffer from a lot of issues. Many compromising length and quality of life.

Tiny breeds that are purposely bred to be even tinier. Huge holes in the skull that won't close, joint issues, bite (teeth) issues, etc etc.

Cats bred purposely to have super short legs, causing them skeletal issues.

I could go on and on.


Does it make ANY of that "alright" ? Nope.

One has to choose where ones own principles and morals lay.

All that said, based on my own research and experiences, I feel that "Spiders" live a normal life and do not seem to be affected greatly by their sometimes apparent imbalance. Based on the fact they readily eat, breed and do not seem stressed (if husbandry is correct) But that is just my opinion and I don't expect others to agree with it.

Point of my message was simply that all over the "pet" world (and even livestock) animals are bred for certain characteristics that humans look for, even if that does not create the healthiest and/or anatomically correct animal.

If someone wants to make sure that there are no "hidden" defects in their BP morph (and some defects could be internal/hidden) then one would have to stick with "normals" only. Of course that would not be a 100% guarantee on health, but it would fit the principle of staying away from genetically "different" animals that were bred that way on purpose.

That said, one must also note that with dogs/horses/livestock it is far harder to establish "quality of life".

A dog will still eat and live in even deplorable conditions (for example, puppy mill)
Most animals will still live whether they are in freezing or hot temperatures, or in less then ideal husbandry for their breed / species.

They may not be happy or healthy, they may have a good quality of life, but they go on...for a long while before perishing due to neglect.

With snakes, particularly Ball Pythons, it is different.

BP that are stressed for which ever reason, health, fear, no privacy, to cold, to hot do NOT do well. They usually will not eat, and they will not thrive.

Therefore it is easier to establish when a BP is not doing well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zina10

One has to choose where ones own principles and morals lay.

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This. Only the individual gets to decide for themselves what is moral for them. There is no moral high ground, no right or wrong. It is a decision based on personal feelings and only applies to the individual.