Opinions on my first pairing

Piebald is a form of luecism, but hypo is just a reduction in melanistic so not luecism. I believe the direct meaning of the root luec is white. In my opinion a super fire is a super fire and a lesser pied is a lesser pied, and they both are black eyed luecistic. This was not the original intent of this thread, so if you have opinions on the my original question not having to do with semantics I would like to hear it.

Actually I think this is a great first pairing! Especially since your male is the pied. You can keep all the female hets and breed them back to the male, then you'll end up with a bunch of pieds and you can ditch all the hets at that point. I'm actually at a point where I'm looking to stop buying snakes for my breeding projects and just make my own with what I have. I'm also breeding my very first pair this year, actually my female is full of eggs and she just shed today, I'm counting down the days until she lays, should be 30 days! Then another 60 before they hatch.

Also you may have a Kinpin that's het for pied already and not even know it, that's what I'm hoping for as well. You will get 100% hets, then 50% hets, then possible hets, then as people breed the possibilities are not even mentioned although they may still be there...

Here's the odds for your first pairing:

Percent	Fraction	Genes
25 %	1/4	Het Piebald
25 %	1/4	Pinstripe (pin) Het Piebald
25 %	1/4	Lesser (Lesser Platinum) Het Piebald
25 %	1/4	Kingpin (Lesser Pinstripe) Het Piebald

And if you breed back a Kinpin het pied you'll get these odds, it's actually pretty good. You'll get Pieds, Pinstripe Pieds, Lesser Pieds, and Kinpin Pieds (50% will be pieds). From what I've seen no one has ever produced a Kinpin Pied, it may be the worlds first!

12.5 %	1/8	Het Piebald
12.5 %	1/8	Piebald (pied)
12.5 %	1/8	Pinstripe (pin) Het Piebald
12.5 %	1/8	Lesser (Lesser Platinum) Het Piebald
12.5 %	1/8	Pied Pin (Pin Pied, Pinstripe Pied)
12.5 %	1/8	Lesser Pied
12.5 %	1/8	Kingpin (Lesser Pinstripe) Het Piebald
12.5 %	1/8	Lesser (Lesser Platinum) Piebald (pied) Pinstripe (pin)

Personally I wouldn't worry about how desirable the babies would be on the first few pairings, if you price them low enough they will sell, and you won't have very many to start. As you progress into more exotic combos they will be more and more desirable. Prices are tough as well, I've seen some hold their value over a couple years, some will drop 50% in less than a year. It comes down to supply and demand and how much people undercut each other. I'm actually working with some pied combos that run about $600 on Morphmarket, but they all sell out as soon as they are posted. I know I can raise the price and sell them, maybe even double the price since the supply is limited and the demand is high. Lots of people are so concerned about cutting the lowest price out there they don't even stop to consider supply and demand logistics and the thought that prices can be increased in some cases, sometimes significantly increased. I actually had to wait a full year to get my pied combo and I jumped on it super fast, and within a week they were all sold out again.

Thanks Chadwick, you covered a lot of information. I definitely intend to breed for some high quality animals to keep as breeders. It is great to get some advice from a fellow Coloradan.

Sure I'll give my opinion on desirability. I first will assume that you are keeping the morph het pied females. And selling males.
Het pied male are very hard to find homes for ( most of mine go to a local pet store as norrmals). Pin het pied male. Obviously easier to move as it is a 2 gene animal and pin pied is a popular combo. Lesser het pied not as popular as a pin pied but you can sell them because lesser is still a popular base morph kingpin het pied do a easy sell it is a 3 gene animal and people will want it just for it's potential. The only thing that you will have issues with are the normal het pied males. I suggest that you find a mom and pop pet shop and those sell to them as normals

Unfortunately in my state there was a recent change where an old agency, PACFA, began regulating reptile breeding. The stores can only buy from registered breeders, which is a $300 dollar license. It is not worth the money if I am only producing one clutch. They allow hobbiest to sell at expos under the expos license. They do not control out of state sales. I am aware het pied males don't fetch much, really I intend to give them away as free gifts with the purchase of other snakes. Hopefully the odds are with me and there are no normals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Unfortunately in my state there was a recent change where an old agency, PACFA, began regulating reptile breeding. The stores can only buy from registered breeders, which is a $300 dollar license. It is not worth the money if I am only producing one clutch. They allow hobbiest to sell at expos under the expos license.

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Typical politics. Take something simple and complicate it.
Well. In that case I will keep my fingers crossed for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StillBP

Typical politics. Take something simple and complicate it.
Well. In that case I will keep my fingers crossed for you.

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I mean the oversight was definitely needed. I am sure I will be fine.

#1 don't try to sell your hatchlings before they actually hatch, I know it's an exiting time but it does not mean you will produce viable eggs and if you do many things can happen including the fact that you might produced and entire clutch of nothing more than Het Pieds.

Pricing is a combination of several factors supply and demand will affect the price at the time of production so will sex, your name and reputation will as well, if you do not have an established reputation and come out of nowhere selling hets will be difficult so while breeder A might commend higher price, you might not.

Usually I don't start pricing my animals before they hatch and feed for me at least 3 times, at that point I do some research on similar animals and calculate the average and base my price on that, does that mean that the animal will sell for that, not always but over the years I have had no issue selling animals at my asking price.

Now the reason not many work with this type of pairing is because people would rather stay away from Lesser Pied projects due to the tendency of those to have small eyes, which is why people not likely spend the extra money for a lesser or kingpin het pied if they do not intend to use them to their full potential.

People who intend to breed are educating themselves asking breeders if they would do such and such pairing and a lot of breeder are honest about it, and as far as the average pet owner they will not care if their animal is het pied.

As to how I feel about the whole Lesser Pied project or the possibilities of Lesser combos Het Pied well I personally have no interest, I have some Lesser combos possible het pied (the sire was CG Leopard DH Hypo Pied and I was interested in the Hypo potential in the pairing I made) however I will never try to prove those animals by pairing them to a Pied.

Thank you Deborah. I am fully aware of the potential genetic odds and many other reasons I may not end up with desirable results. The reason I am looking at prices is so that I have an idea what is reasonable and am not rushing things at the end of the line. The small eye thing seems to be not well understood but seems to have little effect on the animals. If you know more about it, I would be interested to hear it. To me it seems like less of an issue than say the spider wobble.