i have a predisposition to never want any spiders or morphs

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

thank for all of your helpful insight! that helps me understand the morph much better. so my whole idea of "bad breeders produce bad spiders for $$$" is just in my head? is there such a thing as "bad" spider morphs?

i really, really do appreciate your reply. thank you so much for the reply!

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Sure there are train wrecks but they are rare, very rare, the vast majority of spiders are doing just fine living their life just like any other BP.

In most cases the wobble is hardly noticeable especially if you do not know what to look for and it can lessen or worsen depending on several factors (temps, stress, feeding). A bad wobbler can produce offsprings that hardly wobble and vice versa.

Like with producing anything there are risk spiders however is not the only mutation known to wobble however it is the one people talk about the most (see champagne, woma)

As for the money in spider that's not where the money is if you really want to make money.

Bottom line breeding has it's risk there is no guarentee when pairing 2 animals regardless of the mutation that the offsprings will be healthy.

When it comes to known issues we all draw a line somewhere mine is regarding known physical deformities I don't work with caramel or super black pastel and super black pastel combos for that reason even though I would love to have a panda.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Bottom line breeding has it's risk there is no guarentee when pairing 2 animals regardless of the mutation that the offsprings will be healthy.

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always nice to hear from you, Deborah. thank you for your insight. like i said above, my opinion was based on little knowledge, and this is the first place i come to when i have BP questions. thanks again. :D

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Originally Posted by kxr

In my opinion the rare chance that an animal has a severe wobble is not worth missing the opportunity of working with these beautiful genes. I do however think that the ethical thing to do is avoid breeding any wobbly morphs together. I currently own a beautiful spider that seems to be perfectly normal. Someday I'd also love to add hidden gene woma, spotnose and champagne into my collection. I will do my best to avoid any breedings that combine those genes in effort to reduce the chances of producing severe wobble animals.

I've heard spotnose is less severe then the other genes mentioned and even has a viable super but I'm still going to avoid combining it with other wobble genes and producing the super.

One question I have is what do you do with an animal with a really bad wobble?
Is it right for breeders to cull those animals or is it there responsibility to try to keep the animal alive despite a potentially low quality of life? I feel like it would be more ethical to cull these animals but I have no first hand experience with a bad wobble animal and how bad it actually effects them.


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in terms of mixing wobblers together, they tend to not thrive 99% of the time such as spider champagne, spider powerball, hidden gene woma champagne. But some of them come out perfectly normal like hidden gene woma spider, spotnose champagne, and spotnose hidden gene woma. Spotnose spider is iffybecause i've heard varying degress of the viability. Ben renick has made numerous combos of thatpairing and they'veall lived to adulthood with no noticeable problems or differences from regular spiders where as justin kobylka has stated that spider spotnose comes out extremely dingy but can still eat so, spider crosses with spotnose are still in infancy interms of information. (I got this information from asking them directly)

As for animals will really bad wobbles, from my understanding, the amount of spiders that come out with a really bad wobble still thrive, it's just a bit more time consuming during feeding time because you have to check wvery little bit to see if they lost track oftherat ornot. That is also a moot point because i have to that with my non-wobblers anyway. In my opinion a bad wobbler that would have to be euthanized would be something that's dingy beyond repair like NERD's pearls that Kevin would accidently make back in like 2009-era where lethal combos were still being discovered. Those snakes have a wobble that's a 100x more problematic than the spiders.

A little side note: I do not have anything against people who choose not to own spiders but what I have a problem with is people bad mouthing and bashing people who own or breed spiders. (I.e. Reptiblr)

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Originally Posted by DreDeuce

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with the OP's pre-post mindset. I've done a good bit of reading on the Spider Gene, and to me is just not worth it. I seen from multiple sources that every spider has the wobble, to different effects and severity, and that's just not for me. I do feel sorry for them. I know there is a snake and a morph out there for everyone who is interested, but I just couldn't do it. So you can imagine my level of disappointment when i found out 2 morphs that I really like and aspired to get, contained the spider gene. I.E. ... Killer Clown and Bumblebee.:(. There only possible way I see myself owning a spider is if I had to rescue one.

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I don't believe killer clown has the spider gene, not sure how you got that but killer clown is super pastel and clown. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

As far as avoiding spiders, I'm glad I never heard about the wobbles until after I already owned two spider morphs. I may have avoided them as well but now having two, I am still yet to understand what these wobbles people talk about even are. My two spiders are both perfectly normal and gorgeous, it is one of my favorite morphs. I'm glad that I didn't miss the opportunity to enjoy such a great morph based on something that could be an issue but is not at all as bad as some people believe without ever even owning a spider. I could go look it up on youtube but why? I'd rather base my opinion on experience. I might be more hesitant to buy a spider based on a picture but I have no issue with adding more to my collection as long as I choose them in person like I did with my first two. At least this way I can see how they move and act. I think anyone that loves the spider morph should not miss out on owning one because of the fear of it having wobbles. If your really that worried, just wait until you have the opportunity to observe one before purchasing and you can avoid the chance of getting one that has any serious case of the wobbles. Spiders really are a beautiful morph, it's too bad a few bad cases have caused so many to miss out on owning them.

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Originally Posted by GoingPostal

This is my issue with it honestly, that people are like, well only "some" of them are screwed up and wobbling all over so it's fine? 9/10 turn out fine but the last one is a trainwreck so let's play the odds and who cares about the bad ones because they aren't the majority? Clearly most of them live fine, but it's the ones who don't that concern me more, their lives matter just as much don't they? Idk, seems like a sad attitude to me but I don't breed. I try to stay out of the morph game entirely and wouldn't want a wobbly snake but maybe that's holdover from my other animals where reputable people aim to breed for the best and healthiest but bybs often go for defective flashy new stuff. I used to really like caramel albinos when I first got in the hobby until I found out they kink and that probably colored my attitude towards morphs a lot too.

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I hate to post this video as it is somewhat graphic but it really addresses your concerns. I believe this animal is a chocolate butter ghost. None of those genes are known to have defects as far as I know however there is clearly something very wrong with this animal.

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=BZJo_2sM9hQ

If there's a 1% chance of hatching a ball python regardless of the genes at play should we avoid breeding them? I understand this is your argument taken to a ridiculous extreme but the point is there is always a chance of defects regardless of the genes at play.


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Originally Posted by kxr

If there's a 1% chance of hatching a ball python regardless of the genes at play should we avoid breeding them? I understand this is your argument taken to a ridiculous extreme but the point is there is always a chance of defects regardless of the genes at play.

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I know you are just exaggerating numbers but even with two normals you are already at 1%. I have 3 spiders. One of which is a train wreck and one that used to be (symptoms can return at any time though). I used to avoid these guys but after acquiring one by accident (long story), I have found that actually make really good pets. All three of the animals are thriving and are being bred this season. As Deborah said we all have our line of what we will breed and what we will not. I will not go spider to spider and I will not breed anything that has known kinking issues.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I know you are just exaggerating numbers but even with two normals you are already at 1%. I have 3 spiders. One of which is a train wreck and one that used to be (symptoms can return at any time though). I used to avoid these guys but after acquiring one by accident (long story), I have found that actually make really good pets. All three of the animals are thriving and are being bred this season. As Deborah said we all have our line of what we will breed and what we will not. I will not go spider to spider and I will not breed anything that has known kinking issues.

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I agree. Everyone has boundaries and we should all respect each other's boundaries. Personally, I will never purchase a caramel albino especially when ultramels are so nice. I will also never intentionally produce a super cinnamon/black pastel or eight ball.


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Originally Posted by rufretic

I don't believe killer clown has the spider gene, not sure how you got that but killer clown is super pastel and clown. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

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You are correct. Killer clown is super pastel clown. No spider

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

in terms of mixing wobblers together, they tend to not thrive 99% of the time such as spider champagne, spider powerball, hidden gene woma champagne. But some of them come out perfectly normal like hidden gene woma spider, spotnose champagne, and spotnose hidden gene woma. Spotnose spider is iffybecause i've heard varying degress of the viability. Ben renick has made numerous combos of thatpairing and they'veall lived to adulthood with no noticeable problems or differences from regular spiders where as justin kobylka has stated that spider spotnose comes out extremely dingy but can still eat so, spider crosses with spotnose are still in infancy interms of information. (I got this information from asking them directly) )

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I want to comment on this really quickly. I don't want this to be taken the wrong way (although it probably will be) because by no means do I think Kevin or Ben are bad people but I'm not convinced of the viability of any of those animals. In a (somewhat) recent nerd video (one of the ones with Bill Galloway) it shows a spotnose hgw combo and that animal appears to be very wonky. Again I suppose this comes down to personal preference but I don't see an animal that wonky as something that should be intentionally propagated just because it CAN survive.

Now that could have just been a severe case considering the sample size is exactly one but the logical part of my brain says "even if there isn't a synergistic effect on the wobble of an animal by combining two wobbly genes together it would be twice as likely to produce a severely afflicted animal because there are twice as many genes that could create a severe wobble".

Either way until I have first hand experience with larger quantities of these animals (which I doubt I will ever have) I will be intentionally avoiding producing any combos involving more then one "wobbly" gene.

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Originally Posted by kxr

I agree. Everyone has boundaries and we should all respect each other's boundaries. Personally, I will never purchase a caramel albino especially when ultramels are so nice. I will also never intentionally produce a super cinnamon/black pastel or eight ball.


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I'm curious, what is the issue with super cinnamons? I ask because I own a pastel super cinnamon who hatched with a pretty big birth defect but didn't think it was an issue with her morph so much as an unfortunate one off. She's thriving in spite of it and is a very beloved pet who will never be bred.