Baby Ball in critical condition - how to switch from tube feeding to self-feeding

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Originally Posted by Ellizaryn

Six qt seems small. Is this what I'm aiming for?

I have Aspen but heard that it can choke the snake if she accidentally swallows it from feeding. Should I be concerned?

How can you have a "hot side" and "cool side" in a tub that small?

I also don't understand what you mean by the flowerpot saucer. So what is currently in the picture is the hide or a water bowl? Do I need both? Are the 6" upturned bowls I have pictured insufficient? Could you post a link to what I need to buy?

She's currently in an opaque bin. With a clear bin, do I just rely on towels to keep out the light?

Also, should I be worried about household sounds disturbing her?

Are these temperatures your recommendation for day and night, or should it be adjusted for night?

Thank you so much for you help.

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Yes, that's the size tub you want. Set it up so that your UTH is under about 1/4 of the tub. If your room is around 70 degrees or so, if the hot side of the tub is around 90, the other side will take care of itself and sit in the mid-high 70's, which should be fine. I'd cover half of it with a towel or foil, to keep some darkenss (help the snake feel safe, but still let it realize day/night cycle) but that isn't really needed unless there is a lot of activity going on in the room (other pets, lot of foot traffic, etc..). The flower pot saucer Deborah is refering to is something like a very small bowl. Something similiar to this: http://www.reptilebasics.com/small-hide-box you can make one out of a butter bowl or small pot. Or if you want to private message me, I'll send you one.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Provide a hot spot of 86/88 at the most on the hot spot and 76/78 on the cool side.

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Idaho Veterinary Hospital:

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Temperature:

"The ambient air temperature throughout the enclosure must be maintained between 80-85F during the day with a basking area kept at 90-93F. At night, the ambient air temperature on the coolest side may drop to no less than 75F, and only if a basking area of at least 80F remains available. Considering your companion's situation, we suggest never letting the ambient temperature drop much below 80F. Always include a water dish."

Humidity:

"Typical humidity should be maintained between 50-60%. For your case, humidity may reach 70% due to her dehydration."

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Those quotes are from a 5 page (single spaced) care guide that my veterinarian provided for me.

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Six qt seems small. Is this what I'm aiming for?

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It is you can pickup a 6 quart tub locally anywhere between $1 to $3

Being in a very small/cramped enclosure is the purpose the smaller the better it will provide the security your BP needs and I recommend that your BP is kept in a 6 quarts shoe box until it reaches 150/200 grams, once you reach that point it can be move to what you have now.

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I have Aspen but heard that it can choke the snake if she accidentally swallows it from feeding. Should I be concerned?

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Nope the ingest and digest whole prey that have fur, teeth and nails and a little aspen will not hurt, I keep all my hatchlings on aspen have so for years without any issue.

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How can you have a "hot side" and "cool side" in a tub that small?

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You achieve those temps the same way than you achieve the temp in any enclosure a small UTH covering 1/3 of the enclosure (if the one you have is too big simply move it to only cover that much of the enclosure, as for ambient temps it will be achieve based on the ambient temp.

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Are these temperatures your recommendation for day and night, or should it be adjusted for night?

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Those temps MUST be maintain 24/7 year round, fluctuation for an animal that has issues are to be avoided.

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I also don't understand what you mean by the flowerpot saucer. So what is currently in the picture is the hide or a water bowl? Do I need both? Are the 6" upturned bowls I have pictured insufficient? Could you post a link to what I need to buy?

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You do need both in my picture what you see is a water dish (which is a given you can use your or a smaller one if it does not fit) , I do not use hides unless I have a problem hatchling so in your case you will need to add the flower pot saucer to use as an hide, it will look like this once you cut a hole in it.

http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/a...iles/Hide1.jpg

you can find them plastic flower pot saucers in the gardening section of Walmart, Lowes or home depot for about $1, the six inches ones are perfect size for hatchlings that size and in a 6 quarts tub you will only need one.

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She's currently in an opaque bin. With a clear bin, do I just rely on towels to keep out the light?

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You can do that of buy a darker tub (around easter you can find blue and pink one at Walmart), you can still see through but they will be darker.

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Also, should I be worried about household sounds disturbing her?

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You definitely want your BP in a low traffic area for now

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Originally Posted by Ellizaryn

Idaho Veterinary Hospital:



Those quotes are from a 5 page (single spaced) care guide that my veterinarian provided for me.

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The temperature quoted are way too high for the enclosure in question, a smaller enclosure means if the temperatures are that high it leaves very little room for thermoregulation, hatchlings also do better at slightly cooler temps.

85 ambient is too hot and if you were to keep ambient at 85 than you should avoid providing a hot spot. Your temps should also not have a 5 degrees fluctuation.

If you want to provide 80 because your vet said so it’s fine but the hot spot should still be no higher than 86/88

Your vet jumped to tube feeding when it was likely not necessary and assisting would have been a better course of action if even necessary at all.

Again there should not be any drop in temperature EVER and temps MUST remain as stable as possible day and night.

Keep in mind that those are temporary changes until the animal eats for you with consistency after that it you can provide another setup but the key will remain SECURITY which mean adequate enclosure size, hides that are very snug etc.

This is not an unusual problem and many people that are new to owning BP experience the same issue and in the majority of cases when changes are made the animal quickly make progress.

I just wanted to note that unless you are going to a reptile/herp-specific veterinarian... most vets do not have a single clue what they are doing or advising when it comes to snakes. They follow some outdated guide from their back cabinet, and give you advice on the fly according to their one pamphlet, whether it is correct or not. I've seen way too many people asking for help on this forum and other groups after following the improper advice of vets who had no idea what they were talking about when it comes to snakes, potentially making the situation worse.

You can do better with your own research online + advice from long-time keepers of many healthy ball pythons specifically, like on this forum.

Another type of hide that I find works really well for security is the cardboard end of a paper towel roll. They don't last long and need to be checked frequently for cleanliness. But they work really well. They also fit almost perfectly into a six quart tub. :)

I suggested the rat pup (cats have kittens, cows have calves, and rats have PUPS) weighed in appropriately because OP has tried mice and a rat pup with its eyes closed will not eat the snake making it safe to leave in there for two days. I would not leave any rodent with its eyes open in with a refusing reptile for more than a couple hours, weaned or not. Eyes open = teeth=ready to eat a live snake if need be to stay alive. No need to bash me, I have raised hundreds of hatchlings and never ever have had to feed mice. Not one single time. I do not like mice and I have never had a hatchling not thrive just fine on rats from the get go. Certainly worth a try! Done.

So, what should be my next course of action?

I last tube fed her 50 hours ago. I will have the smaller tank setup by tomorrow (or today, Tuesday). Should I try offering her food again, or should I just put her in the new habitat wait (?) many days before trying to feed? When and should attempt an assist feed if she's not taking it? Is it best to offer f/t or live?


Thank you all so much for your help. I've had reptiles and birds in the past, but this is my first snake. I typically do a LOT more research before taking in a new animal.

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Originally Posted by Kibbleswhites

I suggested the rat pup (cats have kittens, cows have calves, and rats have PUPS) weighed in appropriately because OP has tried mice and a rat pup with its eyes closed will not eat the snake making it safe to leave in there for two days. I would not leave any rodent with its eyes open in with a refusing reptile for more than a couple hours, weaned or not. Eyes open = teeth=ready to eat a live snake if need be to stay alive. No need to bash me, I have raised hundreds of hatchlings and never ever have had to feed mice. Not one single time. I do not like mice and I have never had a hatchling not thrive just fine on rats from the get go. Certainly worth a try! Done.

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Your intentions were good, just some confusion/misunderstanding on the lingo. When ordering or buying rats, a rat "pup" is around 30g-40g, and obviously would be way too large for this scenario. The rat you are describing would be a rat "pinky" (still all pink, no open eyes, etc....)

If started on rats from the beginning, there is no question a snake would do just fine. I think the statements above were just going back to the fact that THIS animal was started on mice, so it knows their scent and knows to associate that food. They can and do react to mice and rats differently. Yes, if it would take a rat that is fine, but I think the suggestions were made with mice to avoid any changes in what little this snake already knows.

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Originally Posted by Ellizaryn

So, what should be my next course of action?

I last tube fed her 50 hours ago. I will have the smaller tank setup by tomorrow (or today, Tuesday). Should I try offering her food again, or should I just put her in the new habitat wait (?) many days before trying to feed? When and should attempt an assist feed if she's not taking it? Is it best to offer f/t or live?


Thank you all so much for your help. I've had reptiles and birds in the past, but this is my first snake. I typically do a LOT more research before taking in a new animal.

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Once you have done the changes, NO HANDLING, no tube feeding, for a week, once a week as passed offer a live hopper mouse....it may fail at first given what the animal has been through but if it does no more tube feeding there are other options but you will see when you get there.

When offering leave the mouse near the tub for 30 min to an hour before feeding offering a little food and water. Than put the mouse in the enclosure and close the tub, try offering at dark. If not eaten remove after 20 min.

NO HANDLING un the animal eats on it's own 3 times if successful.

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^^^^^^

This

Tube feeding has to stop it is just making the situation worse, in a week if she did not eat advise and something other than tube feeding will be done.

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Originally Posted by LittleTreeGuy

Your intentions were good, just some confusion/misunderstanding on the lingo. When ordering or buying rats, a rat "pup" is around 30g-40g, and obviously would be way too large for this scenario. The rat you are describing would be a rat "pinky" (still all pink, no open eyes, etc....)

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Negative, that would be a weaned rat range.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...ps6c837bf2.jpg