How to feel about the ethics of the spider wobble?

When I bought my spider I didn't fully understand the spider wobble as no one mentioned it to me (pet store) and was certainly freaked out when he corked screwed at the first feeding. People will do as they like but if they choose to breed spider morphs I think any buyers of offspring should be fully informed of the potential for serious wobble as it could lead to the animal being re-homed by an inexperienced or first time keeper.
I love my spider guy, he's settled a lot and doesn't corkscrew at feeding anymore, I'll likely never get rid of him, but I don't think I'll ever purchase another spider morph.
To each his own, be an informed buyer

I don't have a problem with breeding spider morphs unless it's a pairing known to create a lethal combo, such as champagne x spider. Otherwise, any time you put a female to a male you can end up with offspring - or even a whole clutch - of snakes that hatch out imperfect. Whether that imperfection impacts quality of life or not is key, as most snakes really don't need a lot: food, correct warmth and humidity, and a secure hidey-hole. The important thing is to have a plan for those animals, e.g. given away as pets, culled and used as feeders, etc.

It would be interesting to know what percentage of spider morphs end up culled due to being born with, or even developing, a wobble so severe that it can't eat.

I do have a few spider morphs and combos. The bee and spider show a very mild wobble, while my the spinner only shows it when stressed or excited, like when feeding. Fortunately she takes f/t so it doesn't matter - if I can get the feeder in front of her nose she'll grab it readily enough.

If I am drifting too far from the original topic please feel free to move this however does anyone know of a spider that had to be culled due to wobble? I for one do not.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

If I am drifting too far from the original topic please feel free to move this however does anyone know of a spider that had to be culled due to wobble? I for one do not.

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I have only heard of one person that claims to of had a spider with a wobble so bad it wouldn't eat. However that same person just culled it instead of taking suggestions on how to minimize it, so who knows how bad it really was. Then there are always the "I know a breeder" "I have a buddy" "my sister's boyfriend's cousin's aunt" rumors that you never find a source to, seems to be the same people that have desert females that lay viable eggs. Besides that we have multi thousands of spiders that thrive perfectly fine in captivity.

Wobble or not, I can't imagine where this amazing hobby would be without the spider gene. Normal Ball Pythons are great, but it wasn't until I saw a bumble bee that I knew I had to get involved with BPs. I could only imagine the excitement in those early days of having a dominant gene that could change the pattern of a ball python so much. I don't personally own a spider BP and I never did get that bumble bee but I think this hobby and how it has grown owes a lot to the gene.

Whether you believe it's ethical or not think where this hobby would be without the Spider, HGW, Woma, and champagne genes and the excitement they injected to it.

I don't think you can compare things like bad hips in a dog to the wobble in a BP. The wobble doesn't seem to distress them, it doesn't interfere in their desire to eat(might make it harder for them to strike well) and doesn't stop them from breeding. They crawl about, look at things, eat prey items, coil up and sit there like a rock... everything that a normal BP does.

I've had friends with disorders/injuries that give them a palsy and although they wish they didn't have the palsy, and it creates some issues, they've said that it was not particularly painful nor distressing once they got used to the condition.

Since a spider hatches out with the condition, it's never known any different. with mine(who wobbles a lot), I simply prekill all of her food, and she eats quite readily. In fact, she rarely ever misses a meal. I named her Hepburn for her elegance and poise... and for the palsy.

For myself, I will probably never own an animal with the spider gene present. I do appreciate the beauty of some of the morphs, such as a lesser bee, but the wobble simply bothers me. I won't speak for the snake. How can I? A snake has never spoken to me so how would I know what it is experiencing? How can I know if it is in pain or distressed by it's condition? We humans, in our arrogance, have a tendency towards anthropomorphism.

I will not knowingly propagate an animal with a known defect. There are simply too many other combos I can produce that are issue free. I do not know the history of the spider gene however, I do often wonder to myself. If a human hadn't intervened, capturing and breeding the first specimen carrying the defect, would it have survived to the age of sexual maturity or would nature have eliminated it through natural selection?

All this being said I would not dare tell you how you should feel or what you should decide. That is up to you and you alone.

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Originally Posted by rlditmars

For myself, I will probably never own an animal with the spider gene present. I do appreciate the beauty of some of the morphs, such as a lesser bee, but the wobble simply bothers me. I won't speak for the snake. How can I? A snake has never spoken to me so how would I know what it is experiencing? How can I know if it is in pain or distressed by it's condition? We humans, in our arrogance, have a tendency towards anthropomorphism.

I will not knowingly propagate an animal with a known defect. There are simply too many other combos I can produce that are issue free. I do not know the history of the spider gene however, I do often wonder to myself. If a human hadn't intervened, capturing and breeding the first specimen carrying the defect, would it have survived to the age of sexual maturity or would nature have eliminated it through natural selection?

All this being said I would not dare tell you how you should feel or what you should decide. That is up to you and you alone.

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Honestly I believe to each his own, but with this logic there are other morphs that should not be bred. I have two normal albinos that I believe are quite visually impaired. I have heard others report the same thing about albinos. Should we not breed those too? As to them being in pain, I have seen more than my share of animals in pain. If i believed for a second that my snakes were in some kind of excruciating pain that could not be corrected I would cull them. I absolutely do not believe they are in pain.

I have a beautiful Spinner Blast. Yes, he has a bit of wobble and I even (affectionately) call him a bit of a derp. It's most noticeable when he's stressed or excited. Occasionally, he does miss his rat on the first strike but not always and it never seems to stop him from trying again. I absolutely adore him and look forward to breeding him in the future, even knowing there is a (slim) chance that some offspring may be so bad they may need culled. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread - everyone knows someone's aunt's brother's nephews 3rd cousin twice removed that has had a snake so wonky it won't survive so a more humane route needs to be taken. This is always a possibility no matter what animals you are breeding from pets to livestock. It's not a condition that the reptile industry (and BP specifically) have the sole claim to. Does that stop horse ranches from breeding horses? Cattle ranches from producing calves? Chicken farms from hatching chicks? Etc, etc ad infinitum. No, it does not. Each person involved has to exam their own beliefs and decide for themselves if not only they can handle the possible outcomes, but also if the rewards will outweigh the risks. Personally, I have no problem with the spider wobble - i have a much bigger problem with the duckbill/kinking that some morphs are notorious for. But then, I see that as a much bigger health risk to the snake.

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Originally Posted by blue roses

I have a spinner blast male, he has spider in him, but no wobble. I just bought a enchi firefly, and it has no spider in it. Eventually i will breed them, and hope that the wobble gene needs the two parents too carry spider to show the wobble. If i'm wrong please correct me. i have seen a few wobbles but the snakes eat and drink and seem to do well, so i'm not too concerned. I've seen a few fire spiders and they are very pretty.

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You're wrong; the gene does not need both parents to carry to show a wobble. Even a parent's wobble won't be a good guide to use to predict offspring wobble. Some have none and grow into a wobble...some do the opposite. A parent with low wobble can produce an offspring that has terrible corkscrew, and the opposite is also true. You simply cannot predict the outcome.

While spider is the topic of this thread, there are other genes that exhibit the wobble, as well. Woma, HGW, Champagne, Super Sable, and Power Ball. You don't see nearly as many threads about their issues. Even super lessers have an issue, although it's not neuro related. They have a tendency to bug eye. Even little wee Mon Cheri has one eye bigger than the other. As what could be considered a physical deformity, it doesn't stop breeders from making super lessers.
There's more, of course, and OWAL has a list if you care to check it out. (http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php)

To end back on the spider, and to lean on OWAL again, there's a really informative article written up that may help you make up your mind about where you stand on the spider. http://www.owalreptiles.com/spider.php

Thanks for all the opinions guys! It's super informative and gives me a lot to think about, and I look forward to any other 2 cents people put in this thread.

I won't be able to breed any of my females for another two years or so, so I do have time to think about how I sit with it.
I definitely agree that any possible buyers should be well aware of the possibility of a wobble in the offspring they purchase
so if I do go that route I'd do all that I can to inform them so they're not in the dark and it wouldn't risk the snake being abandoned due to the wobble.

Out of curiosity, is there a way to tell if the wobble is/isn't causing pain to the snake? I've been told it doesn't even with severe cases, but at the same time is there a way that we can tell that this is true?
I guess that's my biggest concern is if it's causing pain, which is one of the reasons I don't plan on breeding my male caramel albino (due to the high kink percentages), so he'll be stuck in pet tier :P.
Obviously there's always a chance for mishaps regardless of what you're breeding, but has there been studies that show this neurological defect doesn't cause pain - only difficulty with equilibrium?