what a genetics gaurantee should look like

I don't think folks were offended so much as offering different views on the value and application of the written guarantee. Thanks for showing a good example of one by the way.

I appreciate the example. I too would want this in my next snake.

While I agree paperwork is a nice touch, there is still nothing better than buying from a reputable breeder. I would much rather buy a het with no paperwork from a breeder who has a good reputation, has been around awhile and or has a good track record and BOI standing in Fauna classifieds than some no name Joe Blow who does offer the paperwork. But like Deborah said, I couldn't see any legit breeder jeopardizing their rep for a hundred or two when most have animals selling $1000+. just not worth it.

As someone who's new to the breeding arena, and a bit meticulous about records, I thank you for the lovely example of what a breeding guarantee can look like. So far, I've been really lucky (I also saved a long time) to purchase morphs and not hets (or just possible hets, so no paper work required)

If it's your first season selling, what else assures you that a breeder will someday prove reputable? Most of what I will have (to sell) after my first and second years will be showy co-dom or pied morphs (or real WT's - probability is a fickle mistress), but by year three, I hope to have some interesting combos / hets to offer too. I won't have 'enough' to be a big seller (only 1-3 possible breeding females this year; 6-7 next) and make a name quickly, but I also don't have 25 years in business to spread around the good word (yet)- so what other assurances should/can I provide for buyers?

Also, what do you guys think about the big reptile dealers - e.g. LLL? I bought a snake from Underground Reptiles (FL) and she arrived in perfect condition, as promised, when promised, but I've read a lot of less fortunate accounts online too. If someone is deceiving these big buyers and sellers, how are the breeders held accountable? i

Other than kingsnake and faunaclassifieds, are there feedback mechanisms to report scammers? (maybe that's another thread somewhere I missed)

Thanks again for opening the floor to this discussion - it seems very impolite to bring up these issues of fraud, but, ESPECIALLY when you're new, it seems very important!

I personally think the bigger reptile dealers who generally buy from wholesalers are ok if you are buying something that is easy to identify like a pied or if you are just looking for a pet. But if I was looking for a specific animal that was het for anything, I would go through a reputable breeder as he will know what he has since he bred it. I actually bought my BCI girl from a local mom and pop pet shop who take very good care of their animals and only order one of something until they sell it, then order another. Not like Petco who orders a dozen bearded dragons and sticks them all in a 5 gallon tank. Anyways my BCI girl was just a baby and 2 years later, she is the sweetest snake I've ever had. She's also kind of fat but that's my fault :P I never plan to breed her, she's just my pet.

As for Underground Reptiles, I have read horrible reviews from them on Faunaclassifieds so maybe you got lucky. I take 1 or 2 posts with a grain of salt as even a reputable breeder can have issues that are out of his/her control. As long as the problem is rectified, no harm no foul. Now if they have lots of bad posts, then that to me is more than just bad luck, that is deliberate and I would steer away from them as there are lots of other breeders to choose from.

As for the guarantee, its great and all and looks pretty but like others have said, its very easy to fake and who knows, in the year or three it takes for that "guaranteed" het to reach breeding age, the breeder might be long gone. Also he might just say something like well maybe you got unlucky with that clutch and it didn't prove out, try again next year and maybe he/she will prove out. Basically giving you the run around.

And while the issue of bringing up fraud might be impolite, the people doing the fraud are even more impolite and I think they should be called out to save veterans and even more so, new people getting into the field from getting ripped off and possibly discouraged from the whole hobby.

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Originally Posted by andyroof1979

I am aware of the fact anybody can do this, but it is typically to much work for scamming. I usually by my animals from people i know or they know.

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Actually that is the other way around. There have been a bunch of scams that are so over done its crazy. Why? Makes the people with the money feel more comfortable.

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Originally Posted by andyroof1979

Or you should not say something is worthless when it is not and read the whole post....especially when the last line states it is simply something to look for when dealing with unknown sellers.

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Why? Still doesn't mean anything. I have also seen hets take a couple seasons to prove out. If It doesn't prove 3 to 6 years later then what good is that paperwork.

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Originally Posted by andyroof1979

I wish this thread didn't turn out this way. I was just showing an answer to a question i have seen here a few times.
I never once said to only buy animals that come with papers. Simply said something to look for.
I didn't ask for these papers, they were handed to me, though i always like getting the feed card along with the animal.
People dont always anticipate what animals/ vendors are going to be at an expo, however being a regular vendor i can usually weed out the less desirable vendors/ breeders.
If i was checking out a new show and found 2 people with the same het that i wanted and could find no other way to pick...animals both good quality, breeder knows their stuff, priced the same, but only one had the feed card and paperwork, they would most likely get the sale.
I was just trying to be helpful and contribute a good example of something to LOOK for, not take as the holy grail. Sorry to any offended.

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I don't see anyone here offended other than you. There are more points of view than just yours or mine.
You are posting publically so you should be open to understanding that not everyone is going to agree with you.

That being said there are only 2 things you can really do with that paperwork and only one consists of composting in my garden.
Trust and honesty go hand in hand in this community.
To me my word is worth more than anything in this life, without it I am nothing.
Do I care about being the popular breeder that everyone loves to deal with? No!
Why? I would rather be honest and upfront rather than just make a sale.
Just my two cents. If you cant look me in the eye or my guy feels funny, that's all I need to know.