Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

I know this is not very scientific as far as what Skip is looking for but it is what has been working for me.

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Seems like without a whole lot of formal research done on the matter, comparing and contrasting our observations at home is going to be the most scientific we can get. It would be nice if something concrete was organized for data collection though!

Some food for thought - especially with regards to differing diets of male and female balls pythons:

Concerning the python diet, Luiselli and Angelci (1998) demonstrated that, although rodents were the main prey type for both sexes, the males differed from the females because they fed significantly more often on arboreal prey (birds), whereas the female diet was based nearly exclusively on terrestrial rodents. The authors hypothesized that these differences were attributable to a higher use of the arboreal niche by males, as also suggested by some incidental observations of males climbed on low tree branches.


So males are more apt to climb and also have adapted to actively hunt and make use of less calorically dense prey types.

There are further studies that confirm this fact (increase arboreality of males vs. females/more varied diet) that were incidental to studies on why female and male ball pythons carry differing external parasite loads.

I would therefore argue that even if 10% were adequate for a female, male ball pythons have been studies as more active hunters that could potentially expend more calories hunting down avian prey that have less calories than mammalian prey.

A large rat is roughly 62% protein, 33% fat and has an energy rating of 6.40 kcal/gram of rat.

A chick has a similar protein profile, but 11% less fat and an energy rating of 5.80 kcal/gram.

However we can probably safely say that wild african songbirds and other ball python target prey items are more active and less fatty than a domestic chick or quail.

Bottom line - even if 10% was a safe prey mass ratio for female ball pythons, it could easily be argued that if may be too much for males.

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Originally Posted by Alicia

While I do not know if anyone has done a study on the metabolisms of ball pythons (have they??) . . . Based on my own observations, having kept temperate snakes, honestly, the opposite appears to be true.

Ball pythons appear, to me, to have a slower metabolism than the temperate snakes I've kept when using rate of pooping as a measure. I'm mostly out of temperate snakes now, but I still have my old rosy boa -- even eating sparingly, she poops more than the balls. They also poop less frequently than Angolan and carpet pythons. My BPs poop about once a month; Angolans and the rosy (other than in winter), once a week to just over a week; my carpet poops about 2-3 weeks, but is on a 4-week feeding shedule. Carpet python poop, is a lot more BP poop in relation to their body size than what the Angolans and the rosy leave. I don't have any now, but as an example of a really high metabolism, temperate snake, garters I swear go daily.

I know that's not scientific, but digestion is something I can observe at home. Maybe someone else can chime in.

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I have beaked snakes and dispholidines that will process a prey item in less than 30 hours. Same with psammophylax and philodryas spp. But these area active, quick moving snakes - even in captivity.

Drymarchon, if offered a thermoregulation zone will poop within a few days of feeding.

Ball pythons poop slow...they move slow and once their husbandry needs are met, move very rarely. I'd argue that even without a study, we can say they have at least a slower metabolism than many other species.

What I'd like to see if a study regarding the efficiency of the metabolism of ball pythons. In south american colubrids, that efficiency is about 50%. In some african colubrids, that number goes up a few points. Never seen one on ball pythons...

I've never followed the 10-15% rule because I don't have time to weigh all the rodents out before feeding them and weigh all the snakes out to figure what they need.

A full grown ASF (which is supposedly the natural food source they see in the wild) is smaller than a medium rat. And obviously in the wild they're not ONLY eating full grown ASFs lol. So these people that feed medium or even large rats to their females weekly amaze me lol. I'm happy if my females eat 3 small rats a month and males eat 2 a month. That is considered a great month for me haha. Meanwhile there are some breeders I know who get like 6 mediums or larger into their girls a month. That's sooooooo much food imo. Haha

Like pit said, about monitoring their bowl movements too. I agree with that heavily. Compared to other snakes I've worked with, balls seem to be more proficient at converting meals to weight. I'd assume fat storage for going through the breeding process, they need energy for that. Males obviously don't need that at all, so it's unnecessary to pack them with food. Anyways, like I was saying, if my females are eating well and not taking these huge craps, then I consider that a win because to me that means they're putting it to good use and it's not a waste.

Really, it's a constant learning process for me while working with these snakes. What doesn't work one year gets adjusted the next year. What works one year may still get adjusted, just for fun to see what else works. I like to experiment with them and try different methods for every aspect of keeping them. It's fun learning more and more about them that way. :)

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Compared to other snakes I've worked with, balls seem to be more proficient at converting meals to weight. I'd assume fat storage for going through the breeding process, they need energy for that. Males obviously don't need that at all, so it's unnecessary to pack them with food. Anyways, like I was saying, if my females are eating well and not taking these huge craps, then I consider that a win because to me that means they're putting it to good use and it's not a waste.

Really, it's a constant learning process for me while working with these snakes. What doesn't work one year gets adjusted the next year. What works one year may still get adjusted, just for fun to see what else works. I like to experiment with them and try different methods for every aspect of keeping them. It's fun learning more and more about them that way. :)

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Apparently, only trivial amounts of energy are expended during the brooding/maternal incubation process...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...03347204004877

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Apparently, only trivial amounts of energy are expended during the brooding/maternal incubation process...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...03347204004877

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Interesting! Well, even more evidence to back up my point then. They don't need the big mediums and large rats. Like I said, three meals a month for my females is considered good for me.

And as you said, if males aren't busy searching for food and just sitting in tubs, they certainly don't need excess haha.

I think this raises another debate that people love to have.... Breeding females need to be at least 1500g before you start pairing... Wrong! 6% of 1200g means the female would only lose 72g throughout the breeding process. Not a huge deal. Even if they were losing 10%, it wouldn't be a significant amount of body weight. Because what they lose is probably just fat or water weight anyways lol. I stopped eating dairy less than six months ago and have lost 15% of my body weight, without changing anything else about my diet or lifestyle. Does that mean you won't pair me to any of the hot mom's with tattoos and piercings like you did last year, uncle skippy?!?! :(

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Interesting! Well, even more evidence to back up my point then. They don't need the big mediums and large rats. Like I said, three meals a month for my females is considered good for me.

And as you said, if males aren't busy searching for food and just sitting in tubs, they certainly don't need excess haha.

I think this raises another debate that people love to have.... Breeding females need to be at least 1500g before you start pairing... Wrong! 6% of 1200g means the female would only lose 72g throughout the breeding process. Not a huge deal. Even if they were losing 10%, it wouldn't be a significant amount of body weight. Because what they lose is probably just fat or water weight anyways lol. I stopped eating dairy less than six months ago and have lost 15% of my body weight, without changing anything else about my diet or lifestyle. Does that mean you won't pair me to any of the hot mom's with tattoos and piercings like you did last year, uncle skippy?!?! :(

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Postulation from anecdata (that is, I'm not being very scientific about this, just putting together stuff I've heard): could the 1500 grams rule have come from people wanting to breed their females early? I see a lot of threads about "power feeding" and trying to get females up to "breeding size" within one or two years instead of waiting the full three. From what I've gathered reading stories from breeders that have been in the hobby for a while, putting the females in too young tends to ruin the clutch anyway. They tend to slug out, and you just wasted your time and energy on a long shot project. I don't think I've seen anything relating to the long term health of the animal, but I wouldn't be surprised if it affected that as well

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

I stopped eating dairy less than six months ago and have lost 15% of my body weight, without changing anything else about my diet or lifestyle. Does that mean you won't pair me to any of the hot mom's with tattoos and piercings like you did last year, uncle skippy?!?! :(

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As for the hot moms with the tatts and piercings - my sister did get divorced and met a new guy. She comes with the baggage of four kids. Two of the kids are pretty normal, but three of the four do have bed wetting issues well past the age of 8. I think a few of them are medicated...for an alphabet soup of issues. Good news is that all of those are genetic defects that came from her ex-husband's side of the family. Oh, and I think two have some serious speech impediments...but she is related to me, which means that if you can run her down before menopause hits and your genes are fairly tight, she'll probably bear you a couple of healthy brats.

So sadly, you missed the boat. There's a pretty good looking Korean chick where I work...I've caught her staring pretty hard at me a few times but she has strabismus so she may be looking at the wall behind me for all I know. She's in her late 30s, but if you send me a pick maybe we can set your new skinnier self up.

I'll need a couple of full body shots. Go ahead and post them up here. After I plaster them all over Grindr I'll see if my co-worker is interested.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

As for the hot moms with the tatts and piercings - my sister did get divorced and met a new guy. She comes with the baggage of four kids. Two of the kids are pretty normal, but three of the four do have bed wetting issues well past the age of 8. I think a few of them are medicated...for an alphabet soup of issues. Good news is that all of those are genetic defects that came from her ex-husband's side of the family. Oh, and I think two have some serious speech impediments...but she is related to me, which means that if you can run her down before menopause hits and your genes are fairly tight, she'll probably bear you a couple of healthy brats.

So sadly, you missed the boat. There's a pretty good looking Korean chick where I work...I've caught her staring pretty hard at me a few times but she has strabismus so she may be looking at the wall behind me for all I know. She's in her late 30s, but if you send me a pick maybe we can set your new skinnier self up.

I'll need a couple of full body shots. Go ahead and post them up here. After I plaster them all over Grindr I'll see if my co-worker is interested.

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I can't post pics here, I'm too shy and self conscious. Come do a photoshoot with me. It's feeding day for the snakes. Fourth one this week! :)

I can not sincerely express my gratitude for this post/thread. Thank you skiploder.