New "Dr K Exotic Vet" show

Just to play devil's advocate, maybe the average person shouldn't own an exotic pet.


When I worked at a local pet store I lost count of how many people came into the reptile section and just wanted a pet that looked cool, without any regard for its care or well being.

People impulse buy pets constantly because it's "different" and many will plain not listen to any sort of advice on how difficult an animal may be.

1. Dr. K should be saying "you should carefully consider the needs of an exotic before buying one and not all people are suited to owning an exotic" instead of saying "they shouldn't be in the pet trade."

2. I agree that some exotics require a higher level of knowledge (diet, caging, vet care, etc.) than most "domestics", but that can in part be attributed to "common knowledge". Everyone grew up around a dog / cat and thus knows basic info on diet, care, etc. and vets are easy to come by. Not so with exotics and this can lead impulse buyers to not have proper husbandry (but the same is true with domestics that are neglected too).

3. Based on what you guys said about her, I wouldn't support Dr. K... You shouldn't make money off of clients and then say they shouldn't keep their animals. If she has that stance, she should not treat exotics. Now, granted, there could be editing involved and maybe only her most extreme negative comments (that follow the "script") make the cut.

All in all, I would be curious as to whether or not she knows how others are viewing her. If she has a blog or something it would be interesting to post some of these points there and see what her response is.

I don't have NatGeo Wild, but saw the show once while at my parents' house. She did make the comment about the animals not belonging in the pet trade in that episode, but at the time I thought she just meant "that species" and not all exotics. She has a reef tank in her waiting room... and I'm sure some of it's inhabitants are wild-caught, so I'd say that would make her a bit hypocritical. :/

Agreed, agreed artgecko. I was also taken aback by that tank because marine fish are definitely the most prominently removed from the wild exotic pets. They also have an immense mortality rate, just the facts.

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I agree that some exotics require a higher level of knowledge (diet, caging, vet care, etc.) than most "domestics", but that can in part be attributed to "common knowledge". Everyone grew up around a dog / cat and thus knows basic info on diet, care, etc. and vets are easy to come by.

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This is particularly true. Going back to what I said about cats, it all boils down to culture. Our culture knows and understands what dogs need, but for some reason we fall short on other species. Cats are seen as independent, but in the past most people let them out of the house. Now that many are (rightfully) indoors, they are in a very large enclosure, and they still need enrichment like a zoo animal. Some individuals should have outdoor access that is supervised or enclosed. I think domesticated cats need just what their wild counterpart would need (Africa wild cat). If you look up that animal you will see physically there is no difference between the two species at all.

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Just to play devil's advocate, maybe the average person shouldn't own an exotic pet.


When I worked at a local pet store I lost count of how many people came into the reptile section and just wanted a pet that looked cool, without any regard for its care or well being.

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Not all people are 'pet people'. Unfortunately our culture has a view of these animals as being low-maintenance. If people considered reptiles the same way they do dogs, enclosures would be larger, and more attention would be paid to essential elements. I don't agree with selling exotics in stores, or even dogs for that matter, but if they are going to sell them, I think a great idea would be to display them in the right-sized enclosure so people can see right off the bat that iguanas need a 6 foot enclosure or ball pythons should have at least 4 feet.

I think vets and rescuers alike become blinded by what they see on a (perhaps) daily basis. They often see the worst of the worst, without seeing the best of the best, and that becomes their world view. For example, many veterinarians are strongly against raw diets. Their training from pet food companies tell them raw is "bad". They see people who don't know what they are doing feed their pets a raw or homemade diet, and have to fix the issues that result. They don't see the people who DO know what they are doing and have no need to come in because they have no issues. When I had pet rats, I would take them to the vet if they had a need, I did not take them for a routine exam. My vet had the idea that "all" rats gets tumors, "all" rats get respiratory infections, and "all" rats die by about 12-18 months of age. He didn't see the numerous rats I had over the years who never got sick, never had tumors, and routinely lived to 2 or sometimes 3 years of age. He only saw the worst, so that became his world view.

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Originally Posted by Spoons

I disagree, I absolutely believe domestication has a big part in how well an animal does in a home setting. That was the whole purpose of domestication. We can keep a dog much easier and happier with us than a wolf, because they are a domesticated species. Horses are easier to keep than zebras. Cats are easier than cougars. I used to know all the "points" or factors that make animals a good domestication candidate, as not all animals fit, but I sadly don't remember - but the whole purpose of domesticating anything is to make it a good household animal, make it easier to keep around. captive bred does not necessarily mean domesticated, not at all. A captive bred lion in the zoo may be tame, but they are by no means domesticated.

I 100% agree that regardless of animal, regardless of 'domestication' status or not, people should look into the needs and care of an animal before buying. Sadly, many people don't, and with the exotic species it's harder for a clueless idiot to keep them happy and healthy than a more traditional pet. Many people can get a dog with no prior knowledge and keep it just fine, but lots of the exotics have more refined and special needs that don't get met.

I sure do wish, though, that people would stop buying animals on impusle. It kills me to look at animals on Craigslist. [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Bmills\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png[/IMG] Take the time to research, don't just go snap up an animal. There should be a test you have to take and pass before buying animals, I think.

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Speaking as a biologist, "domestic" really is a useless and almost meaningless word. Many have tried to come up with a true definition, but really, there is none. It is arbitrary. There are animals who may fit most of the definitions that are typically used, but when you truly examine them, they don't, or they fit some traits, but not all.

Currently snakes are not considered “domestic”. I keep ball pythons, kingsnakes, milksnakes, and rosy boas, and I will tell you those are far easier to house and care for than my dogs, cats, horses, or goats. The snakes require far less space, and are perfectly content living in what essentially amounts to a box, as long as they are provided with the proper temperatures, humidity, water, food, and hides. My dogs would not be happy living in a box or cage, nor would my cats, horses, or goats. Even though my four legged animals are considered “domesticated”, they have specific needs that must be met, particularly needs for exercise and stimulation, which my snakes do not have. This makes my snakes far more suitable for an apartment than my dogs, cats, horses, or goats. Of the dogs, cats, horses, or goats, the cats could survive in an apartment, if provided with enough stimulation. My dogs could potentially survive in an apartment, if I took them out running for miles every day. Not walking, running. My goats and horses, forget it.

Domestication isn’t solely about making an animal suitable to be a household pet either. Domestication is about making an animal fit a human need. Poultry and livestock were not domesticated to be household pets, they were domesticated to fulfill a need: a need for eggs, milk, meat, fiber, and draught. They aren’t household pets even today, and they should never be considered household pets – their natural, biological needs make that impossible. Really, even dogs and cats shouldn’t be considered household pets – they too have natural, biological needs that make it impossible. They can survive, and even thrive, as household pets, but ONLY if certain arrangements are made for them: provide cats enough room to run, play, jump, and climb, provide them with toys and play time to release their energy, provide them the ability to use their natural instincts. For dogs, you need to provide them with exercise and stimulation, whether that mean taking them out in the yard to chase a ball, or putting them on a leash and taking them for a 5 mile job. Neither of those animals can survive in a house without meeting those needs for exercise and stimulation. Animals that CAN thrive as household pets, without any requirement for extra exercise and stimulation: small rodents (like hamsters, rats, or mice), some fish, some reptiles, and some amphibians. And yet many of these animals are not even considered domestic.

EVERY animal has a need. MANY animals, domestic or otherwise, do not have those needs met. I used to think that certain animals shouldn’t be kept as pets, but over the years my views have changed. In fact, being a wildlife biologist has helped change those views (ironically). I study animals, their biological needs, and their behaviors as an every day part of my life and career. I see things many people don’t, including neurotic, anxious, stress behaviors in what are normally considered domestic pets. My career has helped train me to see these subtle behaviors, and the body language that describes what the animal is thinking and feeling. Many dogs and cats are not actually as happy as their people would love to believe.

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Originally Posted by MelissaS

Not all people are 'pet people'. Unfortunately our culture has a view of these animals as being low-maintenance. If people considered reptiles the same way they do dogs, enclosures would be larger, and more attention would be paid to essential elements. I don't agree with selling exotics in stores, or even dogs for that matter, but if they are going to sell them, I think a great idea would be to display them in the right-sized enclosure so people can see right off the bat that iguanas need a 6 foot enclosure or ball pythons should have at least 4 feet.

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I was particularly impressed when I went to my localish reptile store this last weekend. Their enclosures were pretty great for the regulars - snakes and lizards and what - but they had a whole room dedicated to their larger animals (as in, the room was their enclousure), even though they weren't large yet. They had a few baby sulcatas with a huge sign saying how big they get and how fast, and how much room they will need. Likewise with iguanas and monitors. And then you go to Petco seeing boas that will get to 20 feet being sold in a little tank, the only indication of their size being (sometimes) the little tag that is stuck on the tank. Sometimes there isn't a tag at all. When I went down when I first got my ball, on some of the animal tanks there was a little "Perfect with X pet kit!" and would direct you to an 'all in one' starter kit - and the boa display had a "perfect with" kit recommended. It was a 10 gallon tank kit. I was very disappointed. Yeah, it's a "starter kit" that would work for a time, but it really insinuates that that is all you'll need for the snake. Came with a (crappy) hide, some bedding, a basking light, and a plant if I remember right.

I'd just like to throw in the Russian silver foxes case. I think it points to interesting aspects that relate to this. After just a few generations of selecting for the calmest, most people-tolerant foxes on their fur-ranch (or farm, whatever the correct term is) they ended up with foxes that produced foxes with "domestic" traits like dogs... And this is just in a few generations, mind you, not thousands of years. These foxes acted more like juveniles or baby foxes, were less aggressive, and less reactive than the ones not selected for temperament. Interestingly enough, they also started showing other dog-like traits (floppy ears, white patches, etc.).

I guess a better way of looking at "domestication" is the keeping of animals for multiple generations selecting for traits that make them more suitable to live around humans... Particularly, more "juvenile" behaviors like affection, lack of aggression, and being less reactive (flighty). Thus, the common dog, bred for these traits, might be an easier animal to keep (under standard conditions) than a wolf, who has not been selected for generations for these traits. Similarly with cats, a domestic cat may tend to less "extreme" needs and behaviors than an f1 hybrid bengal.

All that said, if reptile keepers and other breeders (of rats, birds, etc.) are selecting their stock also based on what we would consider good temperament, then we are currently in the process of "domesticating" them.. If we are following the definition I put above.

It all really boils down to knowledge, realistic expectations, and ability to provide for the animal you have chosen.

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Originally Posted by Spoons

When I went down when I first got my ball, on some of the animal tanks there was a little "Perfect with X pet kit!" and would direct you to an 'all in one' starter kit - and the boa display had a "perfect with" kit recommended. It was a 10 gallon tank kit. I was very disappointed. Yeah, it's a "starter kit" that would work for a time, but it really insinuates that that is all you'll need for the snake. Came with a (crappy) hide, some bedding, a basking light, and a plant if I remember right.

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The store does that because that "perfect" kit makes their bottom line look a lot better so it can stay in business, not because it's the best enclosure for the animal.

That said, BP's don't need a huge enclosure and many won't want it. I moved a 1000 gram female up from a 15 qt to 34 qt recently, she went off food, started pushing (not retic-level face smooshing but obviously unhappy and stressed), lost a bit of weight, etc. I threw up my hands, put her back in the 15 qt, which is only big enough for her and a water bowl, and she settled down and went back to eating immediately. I hate seeing her cramped in there, but if that's what she wants, that'll be what she gets.

I hate those starter kits, and what's worse, they are usually a rip off because they throw in a bunch of cheapo materials and make it look like a great value. It is solely to make money, and the manufacturer has probably researched nothing. There are also those notorious tiny 'Nemo tanks', and this recent nightmare: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IGsHSnju3U

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I guess a better way of looking at "domestication" is the keeping of animals for multiple generations selecting for traits that make them more suitable to live around humans...

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The only acceptable definition is a selectively bred animal with a genetic difference that better suits a human use, which I assume is what your definition means for the most part.

If the animal has a genetic difference but does not suit the purpose better than the wild starting point, it isn't domesticated in my opinion. Ball pythons for instance look different, particularly when they are morphs, but I think they are the same animals found in the wild. The key difference is the environment they are raised in. What many people don't consider is that animals are drastically different based on whether or not they are socialized with humans. Even domesticated animals can return to the wild. Here's something else to consider, domesticated dogs are often neutered and spayed, so we remove a chunk of their natural drive. Unneutered dogs are known to be roamers. Non-castrated camels are dangerous during the rutting season.
I theorized that many zoo animals have issues with pacing for being intact, and their sexual hormones are on fire. When an animal is fixed also plays a part. My vet told me if I didn't neuter my spotted genet early it might not make a difference if I do it later. I ended up not neutering him and thankfully he doesn't spray but he has extreme energy levels.

With my narrowed down definition I was finally able to understand which animals are 'domesticated' and which aren't. Cockatiels, parakeets, hamsters, gerbils, snakes, aren't.