Calico's - Any lethal combos to stay away from?

and i never meant breeding calico to calico resulted in all lethal babies. i meant the super calico was lethal. as well as the super spider.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

Isn't it also the case that we know them to be incomplete dominants a thing too?

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the spider is actually incomplete dominant. the super form is a solid white snake. it just never survives.

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Originally Posted by MootWorm

Maybe this is a noob question, but why can't the females reabsorb a lethal egg? I seem to remember discussing lethal genes way back when in a genetics class, and I think they used an example in a breed of cat where there was a prenatal lethal combo and the homozygous fetuses were absorbed. Granted, this was in regards to mammals, so I'm not sure how the process would go with snakes...


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Once a female Ovys you are getting something ie a fertile egg, an infertile egg or a slug.
With regards to what you are referring to with mammals the fetus is still in contact with the mother and its not in BP's the embryo/fetus is incased in the egg.

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Originally Posted by C&H Exotic Morphs

Once a female Ovys you are getting something ie a fertile egg, an infertile egg or a slug.
With regards to what you are referring to with mammals the fetus is still in contact with the mother and its not in BP's the embryo/fetus is incased in the egg.

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Awesome thanks for clearing that up!


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Originally Posted by TheSnakeGeek

have you ever seen a baby carrying 2 calico genes or 2 spider genes? you haven't because they don't live. they usually don't make it far enough into the incubation to even be seen. eggs go bad in clutches all the time even if there isn't a super. when it does happen because a super spider or calico is in them early on in incubation it's chalked up to be "just another bad egg." theres been discussions on it before with people that are much more knowledgable in genetics than i'll ever be.. let me see what i can find.

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Yes eggs do go bad at times and in any pairing possible.
But if it were the case in these situations don't you think it would be more often and more regular?
Statistically speaking over the long haul 25% of the eggs should go bad from these pairings and it would become more obvious than just a random egg going bad here or there.

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Originally Posted by TheSnakeGeek

the only example i could find on short notice from my phone at work. post #22 specifically, but the rest of the thread is very interesting too.
http://www.reptileradio.net/ball-pyt...r-results.html

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So 1 example and you are set? That's all the evidence you need?
Not very scientific in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by TheSnakeGeek

and i never meant breeding calico to calico resulted in all lethal babies. i meant the super calico was lethal. as well as the super spider.

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Until you posted about Calico x Calico supposedly being lethal I have never heard it before. As far as I can remember I have never heard of the Calico gene being brought up in any lethal combo situation.


Here's the lethal gene video from NERD where he briefly talks about Spider x Spider not being lethal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fhnR5YdGdI


We know very little about the overall genetic makeup of these animals besides the phenotypes. So we can't come to any absolute conclusions on any of this. Just different hypothesis from what we observe.

I just think calling any of that "Lethal" is irresponsible. People seem to hear that and start spreading the crap that if you breed spider x spider the babies will die, or some variation there of, when we really do not know whats going on. Lethal is a bad and likely incorrect term. Has anyone proven that circa 25% of the time eggs die? I dont think anyone has proven anything, because not only enough pairings, but whose keeping track? Maybe im wrong? But I dont think anyone is going to do the necessary breeding.

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Originally Posted by C&H Exotic Morphs

We really don't know exactly what is going on because no one has truly done the breeding and research to see.
I mean in all honestly who wants to produce the numbers of these morphs and keep all of them, raise them up and then breed them out multiple times to prove it out either way.

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This is exactly what I was thinking.
Everyone will have their opinions and they could be right or not, trying to prove it is something else.

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Originally Posted by C&H Exotic Morphs

Yes eggs do go bad at times and in any pairing possible.
But if it were the case in these situations don't you think it would be more often and more regular?
Statistically speaking over the long haul 25% of the eggs should go bad from these pairings and it would become more obvious than just a random egg going bad here or there.

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who's to say they aren't? how often do people shoot for supers and miss or only hit one? now how often do people have one or 2 eggs go bad in a normal clutch? and how often really do people breed spider to spider?

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Originally Posted by C&H Exotic Morphs

So 1 example and you are set? That's all the evidence you need?
Not very scientific in my opinion.

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as i said before, i'm at work on my phone in between customers. not exactly easy to do a lot of searching. if you want scientific, then here: for each genetic trait, the offspring inherits one gene from his father and one from the mother. this is true with ALL living things, correct? (null alleles and parthenogenesis aside). so what happens when the offspring inherits both the calico gene from the mother and the calico gene from the father? because genetically and scientifically speaking this WILL statistically happen 25% of the time. according to you, they either magically disappear, or this never happens. THAT is not very scientific in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by C&H Exotic Morphs

Until you posted about Calico x Calico supposedly being lethal I have never heard it before. As far as I can remember I have never heard of the Calico gene being brought up in any lethal combo situation.

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as with the super spider, if it is impossible to produce a living animal with a homozygous form of the gene, it is lethal. where are your super calicos? if you produce one, i'll gladly eat my foot.

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Originally Posted by C&H Exotic Morphs

Here's the lethal gene video from NERD where he briefly talks about Spider x Spider not being lethal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fhnR5YdGdI

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i thought you wanted scientific? throughout the whole video he refers to co-dominant genes in ball pythons and spider being a dominant gene. another case of people taking large breeder's words as God's.

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Originally Posted by C&H Exotic Morphs

We know very little about the overall genetic makeup of these animals besides the phenotypes. So we can't come to any absolute conclusions on any of this. Just different hypothesis from what we observe.

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no, but we know a decent amount about how genetics work with ALL living creatures. you cannot exclude the ball python from universal genetic rules.

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Originally Posted by TheSnakeGeek

who's to say they aren't? how often do people shoot for supers and miss or only hit one? now how often do people have one or 2 eggs go bad in a normal clutch? and how often really do people breed spider to spider?



as i said before, i'm at work on my phone in between customers. not exactly easy to do a lot of searching. if you want scientific, then here: for each genetic trait, the offspring inherits one gene from his father and one from the mother. this is true with ALL living things, correct? (null alleles and parthenogenesis aside). so what happens when the offspring inherits both the calico gene from the mother and the calico gene from the father? because genetically and scientifically speaking this WILL statistically happen 25% of the time. according to you, they either magically disappear, or this never happens. THAT is not very scientific in my opinion.


as with the super spider, if it is impossible to produce a living animal with a homozygous form of the gene, it is lethal. where are your super calicos? if you produce one, i'll gladly eat my foot.


i thought you wanted scientific? throughout the whole video he refers to co-dominant genes in ball pythons and spider being a dominant gene. another case of people taking large breeder's words as God's.



no, but we know a decent amount about how genetics work with ALL living creatures. you cannot exclude the ball python from universal genetic rules.

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Ok the whole NERD lethal combo video was me being somewhat of a smart:cens0r: in return from your link.
And the whole me taking a big breeders word as gods is pure BS!
I don't take anyone's word as such.

Yes we do have a basic understanding of how genetics work in all living creatures and it is more complicated than what you are trying to say. There could be proteins, modifiers or something else preventing Spider x Spider or Calico x Calico from producing a Homozygous form whether lethal or not.

I am far from a geneticist and don't know or claim to know how it all works or even close to.
Without us knowing the entire genome for BPs and the interactions of such who really knows?

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Originally Posted by C&H Exotic Morphs

Ok the whole NERD lethal combo video was me being somewhat of a smart:cens0r: in return from your link.
And the whole me taking a big breeders word as gods is pure BS!
I don't take anyone's word as such.

Yes we do have a basic understanding of how genetics work in all living creatures and it is more complicated than what you are trying to say. There could be proteins, modifiers or something else preventing Spider x Spider or Calico x Calico from producing a Homozygous form whether lethal or not.

I am far from a geneticist and don't know or claim to know how it all works or even close to.
Without us knowing the entire genome for BPs and the interactions of such who really knows?

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don't get mad. lol if i'm wrong and you're attending daytona i'll gladly buy you a beer. it's not complicated when it comes to what i'm trying to say in regards to allele inheritance. i've never heard of proteins or modifiers restricting an allele from being inherited. do you have any studies or links to theories about this? and even if so, why would you cling to that and be so against the homozygous form being lethal? why would you think that would be more probable than a lethal homozygous, which we've actually seen with other genes? i'm not trying to be rude. i tried to agree to disagree earlier, but when you kept pressing and asking me questions, i answered. i'm not the only one with these views. people with much more knowledge than i will ever have share the same opinions.

again, i can agree to disagree. can you?