Local breeder screwed over by neighbors!

The truth is if he disagrees with the existing laws, or if snake fanciers disagree with the existing laws, you work to get those laws changed. To just break the laws because "Geez whiz, I feel like it's stupid to have a law against what I want!) is setting the example of "Look, reptile owners are irresponsible hoarders who break the law".

He should have checked the laws first. When he was informed it was illegal, he should pursue a way to find other places for his snakes, move to where he could own the snakes, or suck it up and get rid of them. If he wanted to keep snakes and knew beforehand about the law, he should have worked to get the laws changed first.

I think I should be able to drive at LEAST 80mph on a lot of the roads I travel. But if I get busted by a cop driving 80mph when it's clearly marked as a 55mph zone, I deserve the ticket and no whining or wailing and pity me speeches changed the fact that I was breaking the law and got busted doing so.

The only thing I don't agree with is the "one week to resolve this matter" solution they gave him. What if he decides to move somewhere else so he can keep his animals? There is NO WAY he'll be able to sell his house (or even move out of an apartment) and into a new place in one week. At least give the guy 30 days. :|

But yes, like everyone else said, he should've checked the laws first... You can't complain about being asked to follow the rules when they've been that way since the beginning.

It seems somewhat unlikely that the one week time is set in stone. If he can show them that he's working on moving them or finding a new place I wouldn't be surprised if they gave him more time. No matter what though, he buttered his own toast then dropped it on the floor all by himself.

Mostly.

There is also the chance that he simply did not know of this ordinance and never thought to check if such a thing existed. However, as they say, ignorance of the law/ordinance is no excuse.

Unless the exotic animals ordinance was passed less than 10 months ago when this guy moved into the house, he doesn't have a leg to stand on here. Part of choosing a place to live, if you plan on having a home-based business or keeping exotic animals, is making sure that what you want to do won't violate zoning, local ordinances, HOA covenants and/or deed restrictions, etc.

Hello there! This is Thomas. Wanted to come clarify several issues.

Cottonwood Heights is a Township (in essence a private city), that is funded by city taxation etc. They have their own cites and regulations regarding all legal matters. Also including pet ownership.


The apparent violation is lack of an "exotics permit".
Let me post exact ordinance as provided by Cottonwood Heights: Definition of Exotic, Rights to an Exotic permit as well as quantity (or lack of limitation, as their is NO written statute regarding quantity of said EXOTIC).

8.04.110 Exotic animal.
“Exotic animal” means any animal
whose native habitat is not indigenous to the
continental United States, excluding Alaska,
except tropical fish, fur-bearing animals
commercially bred for the furrier trade, birds,
and dangerous animals.

8.04.300 Wild animal.
“Wild animal” means any animal of a
species that in its natural life is usually
untamed and undomesticated, including
hybrids, and animals which, as a result of their
natural or wild condition, cannot be
vaccinated for rabies. These animals include,
but are not limited to:
A. Alligators and crocodiles;
B. Bears (Ursidae). All bears, including
grizzly bears, brown bears, black bears, etc.;
C. Cat family (Felidae). All except the
commonly accepted domesticated cats,
including cheetah, leopard, lion, lynx, panther,
mountain lion, tiger, wildcat, etc.;
D. Constrictor snakes in excess of ten
feet in length;

8.12.120 Exotic animal permit.
It is unlawful for any person to own or
keep an exotic animal without a permit.
Unless prohibited by zoning or other
ordinances or laws, any person, over the age
of 18 years of age, may obtain an exotic
animal permit upon:
A. Demonstrating sufficient knowledge of the species to provide adequate care;
B. Presenting proof of adequate caging
appropriate for the species;
C. Presenting proof that the animal
poses no threat to the health and safety of the
community in the event that the animal should
escape. The director may consult with a
review board comprising federal, state and
local public health authorities in considering a
request for an exotic animal permit; and
D. Presenting proof of required, if any,
state or federal permits.
For the purpose of this section, to
demonstrate “sufficient knowledge” of a
species, a person must show that he has
adequate knowledge of a species to provide
for its basic needs to maintain the animal’s COTTONWOOD HEIGHTS
CODE OF ORDINANCES
8-15 Rev. 7/2011
health and welfare. The director may consider
the person’s experience, education,
apprenticeship or by examination administered by the director when determining that a
person has sufficient knowledge of a species

_______________

So my ordinance code issue, is lack of Exotics animal permit.... I have MET all conditions for said permit. In the direct, copy and pasted ordinance (found here: http://cottonwoodheights.utah.gov/do...de/title_8.pdf). Why would I not be granted said permit? No stipulation on quantity is stated or made. That is police rhetoric and blatantly untrue.

Also let's explore the definition of "Exotic Animal" as stated in the ordinance. Animal who's natural habitat is not indigenous to the lower 48....

So in essence, anyone in MY township of Cottonwood heights who owns a:

Argentina Horned toad (Argentina) to a domestic Hamster (Syria) to a Gerbil (Mongolia) to a Bearded Dragon (Asia) to an Iguana (Mexico) to a Parrot (new and old world rain forests) to a Sugar Glider (Aussie) to a Pixie Frog (Africa) to a Fire Belly Toad (China/Korea and Russia) to a Ferret (N. Africa) to a Love Bird (Africa) to a BALL PYTHON (Africa) to a Whites Tree Frog (Indonesia and Aussie) to a Chameleon (Madagascar) to ANY ANIMAL WHO'S NATURAL HABITAT IS NOT INDIGENOUS TO THE LOWER 48... is in violation... Are we truly going to believe I was the ONLY individual in the entire community that is in this violation? My animals are not a "vicious" animal, they are perfectly kept, they are maintained and healthy and they are in no way a RISK to anyone in the community... What justification, since all the criteria has been met... would I not be allowed to apply for an exotics permit, in an ordinance that I didn't know about....? Yes, negligence isn't bliss.... but, to throw me under the bus when it's a truly "un-enforced" law on nearly anyone else is foolish....

I am attempting to get said permit, which is my only ONLY limitation to owning the animals. Law is the Law.... Be careful when you "speed" throwing those rocks in your glass house. I appreciate any and all support, but anyone in my position would be reaching out for help as well. Fortunately I have a strong network, people that truly care about me and MY ANIMALS, and THEIR WELFARE.... So i'm not concerned about the outcome... I WILL fight this legislation and get a variance or modification if at all possible. I am doing this for the hobby in general.... Many people spitting hate never checked their municipalities... but, guess what? More people will now, which only strengthens our community as a whole.

Thanks for your time,

Good luck on the herp journey. :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BrandiR

Personally I don't think we should even have laws. Speed Limit signs should simply say, "Use Your Best Judgement". The human race can totally be trusted to police themselves.


On topic - I feel really bad for this guy, but it's the risk he took. At the end he talked about a few irresponsible keepers ruining it for everyone and he put himself in that category when he moved in with all those snakes. There's more to being a responsible pet owner than just taking good care of the animals.

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You may have been being sarcastic in your suggestion of abolishing laws and speed limits but, you actually are closer to the truth than most.
Have you heard of the 85% rule (regarding safe driving speed)?
You remove speed limits on any section of road and record the average speed driven. Then you take the lowest 85%'s maximum speed and then set and enforce that as the speed limit. This tends to invariably be higher than current maximums but, in treacherous areas the speed actually drops.
Turns out most people aren't blithering idiots with a death wish as that test reduced collisions and associated deaths, property damage etc. It just seems they are idiotic enough to think that a few mandarins full of prejudice should over rule individual property rights in a matter that affects no one outside of that property.

It seems introductory civic's classes need to be brought back. Because if "government" is the answer you are asking the wrong questions.

[deleted]

Birds are listed under the exceptions.


Did you know about the ordinance requiring a permit prior to moving in? I think you should pursue the required permit(s) as you say you're doing and take whatever steps necessary to resolve your personal situation. "Other people do it!" isn't going to get you anywhere.

I watched the video and read your response here. I believe that you take care of your snakes and I believe that you love them. I think everyone who's posted here feels that way. Have you tried putting together some kind of petition? Maybe if you go to your neighbors and have a face to face discussion with them about what the snakes mean to you, how you're prepared to make sure they don't pose a threat to the neighbors, and give them an opportunity to ask you questions, maybe you can get enough people to back you that the city will give you the permit you need and the whole thing will be resolved.

I really don't think anyone here wants to see you lose your snakes, and no one has said that you should. The general consensus is just that no one is above the law, even a fellow enthusiast.

It's not "hate" to think you should have been following the laws in the first place!

How many people rush out and buy a pet then come here going 'Gee, what kind of housing should I build?" You are NO DIFFERENT than all those who didn't plan for their pet, only your pets are at risk from officials, not from indifferent housing.

No one here has said you don't love your pets, no one said you do not take top notch care of your pets. But you knew you needed the permit, but you got the animals first, THEN you start trying to get the permit and that doesn't show you as a responsible person to the permit issuers.

"Everyone else is doing it!" is not a valid excuse. Yes, the rule is stupid. But it exists and you are breaking it and you got busted. Telling a cop who stops you doing 20 miles over the speed limit that everyone else is speeding or changing lanes without signaling does not in any way mean that you yourself were not also breaking the law.

I wish you luck, both in getting the permit and in changing the local laws(if that's what you decide to try to do). I just wish you'd gone about it in a more responsible manner to begin with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BrandiR

Birds are listed under the exceptions.


Did you know about the ordinance requiring a permit prior to moving in? I think you should pursue the required permit(s) as you say you're doing and take whatever steps necessary to resolve your personal situation. "Other people do it!" isn't going to get you anywhere.

I watched the video and read your response here. I believe that you take care of your snakes and I believe that you love them. I think everyone who's posted here feels that way. Have you tried putting together some kind of petition? Maybe if you go to your neighbors and have a face to face discussion with them about what the snakes mean to you, how you're prepared to make sure they don't pose a threat to the neighbors, and give them an opportunity to ask you questions, maybe you can get enough people to back you that the city will give you the permit you need and the whole thing will be resolved.

I really don't think anyone here wants to see you lose your snakes, and no one has said that you should. The general consensus is just that no one is above the law, even a fellow enthusiast.

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Thanks for the response Brandi. I had NO idea about the permit being required. Although I stated "I was denied" it was due to statements made to me by the officers stating I can apply in the future, meaning I CANNOT now, thusly me using the word "denied" to get a permit.

I have a massive support network, I will air on Urban Jungle Radio on Monday most likely, as well as USARK as stepped forward to assist me in variance or ordinance modification. I have contact directly with a councilman somewhat familiar with the situation and requested a hearing (represented with an ordinance enforcement attorney) to attempt to aid the city in a modification or "special situation" style permit.... obviously this will be a while before anything is changed or enacted, but I believe the fact I WANT to work with city, not against it...... will bode positive outcomes for everyone and the herp community in general.

Also there are 4 news interviews I did (if anyone wants to search the Utah local networks, it's a top story). My story has gone all the way to Paris... it is now international and the herp community is taking a look at their own municipalities and ordinances... it's surprising how many are truly non compliant with the law.

As I told the councilman... a LAW is NOT selective.... it is NOT discriminatory... if you uphold the law with ONE... you must hold everyone to the same standard. Feasibly... CWH CANNOT as nearly anything non indigenous to America is an Exotic (I did correct the parrot distinction... but anything from a fire belly toad, to a beardie, to a leo to a non indigenous constrictor....) THEY ARE ALL ILLEGAL and ANYONE possessing one without a permit, in essence... should be held to my same standard. Otherwise, if laws are selective in who they admonish or punish, it is not a LAW... but an absolute abuse of power AND discrimination.

-Cheers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

It's not "hate" to think you should have been following the laws in the first place!

How many people rush out and buy a pet then come here going 'Gee, what kind of housing should I build?" You are NO DIFFERENT than all those who didn't plan for their pet, only your pets are at risk from officials, not from indifferent housing.

No one here has said you don't love your pets, no one said you do not take top notch care of your pets. But you knew you needed the permit, but you got the animals first, THEN you start trying to get the permit and that doesn't show you as a responsible person to the permit issuers.

"Everyone else is doing it!" is not a valid excuse. Yes, the rule is stupid. But it exists and you are breaking it and you got busted. Telling a cop who stops you doing 20 miles over the speed limit that everyone else is speeding or changing lanes without signaling does not in any way mean that you yourself were not also breaking the law.

I wish you luck, both in getting the permit and in changing the local laws(if that's what you decide to try to do). I just wish you'd gone about it in a more responsible manner to begin with.

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I DID NOT know I needed a permit. Upon moving to the city... The "welcome packet" stated to have all pertinent CWH information DID NOT CONTAIN animal ordinances. I was following County regulations... It's the city I am having an issue with. Again, I was the first person to state negligence isn't bliss....

I also believe what you believed to have been the "law" as stated by the media and the interviewed officer... IT'S ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT. The ordinances are stated above and no designation of any kind has been labeled hereto of "quantity". Only that the permit is needed. I don't care about the fine ($$ isn't the concern, it's the principal). Yes, I SHOULD have known... but to use me as an "example" as to CWHPD upholding the law... is drastically back firing... as more people feel a reprieve and forgiveness is more befitting vs. a crusification.

I do appreciate your comments and I understand your side, believe me. Again, a LAW cannot be selective or discriminatory into who it is enacted upon. I have also talked to all immediate neighbors in every direction (several us up in all direction) and they all said they have NO issue, NO smell and NO idea I even had animals.

I am holding an educational open house this next weekend for the neighboring community to view my animals, to learn and to educate. I'm using this as an opportunity to educate vs. intimidate.

Thanks again for the response. I hope you can view it from my side as well.

:)