Possible NEW dark morph!

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Many folks have spend MUCH more on unproven traits over the years. In 2011, I paid $8000 for one unproven snake and compared to some older mutations that's cheap these days. And I still spend on unproven traits. Risk vs reward sometimes. Typically the higher the risk the higher the potential reward. Africa has played this game for a while now, so you can thank all the breeders who have spent money on unproven specials to have so much neat stuff to work with these days.

That being said, I don't see this as a $5000 pickup based on my understanding of BPs looking identical to this and not proving. Also, if it proves genetic, I'm not even sure it would necessarily draw that kind of money. It doesn't look dynamic enough... of course, that could all change with combos if it were genetic. However, its not $5000 in my eyes.

I like to price unproven stuff based on likelihood to be genetic, appearance, and originality on a scale/pricing system that I've created to help me price import prospects. I would price him at $1500-$2000 or so. Originality is pretty high on my list because love working with original looking animals. Very hard to buy them away from me, so that typically is how pricing can get difficult for me. Of course this would be knowing he was in fact an import and not CB.

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Thanks for the great reply. He thinks that it's likely genetic because the belly is clear and has fairly definitive lines separating the belly and the side pattern. He believes that most codominant mutations have that characteristic.

Let's pretend he DOES prove out to be genetic....codominant. How would you see his offspring being priced the first few years? And what if he somehow turns out to be a super? That would make him less valuable? or more valuable? Also, wouldn't his originality be high based on other dark morphs that are genetic thus far?

Thanks.
Kyle

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Looks similar to the voodoo ball. I've seen a few look like this come in from Africa over the years and nothing has come of them yet genetically.

However, I would still breed this one, as it looks a little different than the others I've seen. Typically the super melanistic balls that haven't proven have smaller heads, sometimes buggy eyes, small deformities, etc. This looks promising from what I see. Can you show us a belly pic?

Good luck regardless! I'd love to see something like that prove out!

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Interesting that you say that, because he is very slightly duckbilled. He has just a bit of a pinched nose.

Well let's just say the super would be an all black snake. The fact he is so dark doesn't point inc co-dom to me. Because I don't see that as the half-way point to a super form. If that makes sense? So we are more than likely looking recessive. I'm already cautious because I'm curious who imported this guy.

As for pricing if genetic, the public likes bright, high contrast animals in general, but some dark mutations have been very popular, but they show a tremendous array of dynamic combo ability that have more contrast and different tones than this guy. I don't see it being priced super-high unless it unlocked something cool, but I just don't see it ATM. I do think its original, and id like one in my collection if it was proven, but I probably wouldn't spend more than 5k unless it showed combo ability. Hope that helps.

Hmm duckbilled would actually imply homozygous form of the black pastel complex. Which would actually point more towards it being genetic, however... It could mean a developmental problem which gave it his appearance.

Again, I'm curious who imported this and their creditability.

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Hmm duckbilled would actually imply homozygous form of the black pastel complex. Which would actually point more towards it being genetic, however... It could mean a developmental problem which gave it his appearance.

Again, I'm curious who imported this and their creditability.

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Yes i was thinking that as well. But then, duckbill is known in super black pastel and super cinnamon, not so much in black pastel cinnamon (8 ball). and these are completely patternless. so if this snake has a slight duckbill, thats not really consistent with it still having pattern. also im not sure if what we see in the pictures even is a duckbill, its a slight duckbill at most.

if its a new genetic codom, it will be interesting to see if it has a healthy super form. if it has one, it will be a direct competitor to GHI and mahogany i think, competing with stuff like:

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...tel-super-ghi/
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/suma/

both of these duckbill free and interesting for combos containing the super.

and if its a recessive then i have no clue, no idea.

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Originally Posted by Wobbilly5

Let's pretend he DOES prove out to be genetic....codominant. How would you see his offspring being priced the first few years? And what if he somehow turns out to be a super? That would make him less valuable? or more valuable? Also, wouldn't his originality be high based on other dark morphs that are genetic thus far?

Thanks.
Kyle

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I'm not going to get into pricing. It is my weakest subject.

Look at the snake's parents. If both look normal, then the dark snake is either heterozygous for a dominant dark gene or heterozygous for a codominant dark gene. Or the dark snake is homozygous for a recessive mutant gene.

Homozygous = the two genes in the gene pair are the same.
Heterozygous = the two genes in the gene pair are NOT the same. In this case the two genes would be a dark mutant gene and a normal gene.

I am using normal to mean the parents look the way they are expected to look from their known genetic make up. If nothing is known about their genetic make up then they look like the majority of ball pythons in the wild.

If the two parents look normal, then the odds of the mutant gene being codominant to the normal gene and the dark snake being a super are astronomical against. Because if both parents look the way they are expected to look, then both parents would have to have the same spontaneous mutation take place. And then a sperm with that mutant gene would have to fertilize an egg with that mutant gene. Assuming the odds of that mutation as 1 in a thousand, the odds of a super would be something like 4 million to 1 against. Not odds I would bet the farm on.

Also look at the dark snake's brothers and sisters. If they look normal, then the odds against that dark snake being a super get higher.

I always recommend that a new mutant gene be assumed to be recessive to the corresponding normal gene. Then it is no disappointment to need two generations to get more. And it is a nice surprise if the mutant is a dominant or codominant gene.

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Originally Posted by Wobbilly5

A friend of mine showed me this male that was imported last July.

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Originally Posted by paulh

Look at the snake's parents. If both look normal, then the dark snake is either heterozygous for a dominant dark gene or heterozygous for a codominant dark gene. Or the dark snake is homozygous for a recessive mutant gene.

Homozygous = the two genes in the gene pair are the same.
Heterozygous = the two genes in the gene pair are NOT the same. In this case the two genes would be a dark mutant gene and a normal gene.

I am using normal to mean the parents look the way they are expected to look from their known genetic make up. If nothing is known about their genetic make up then they look like the majority of ball pythons in the wild.

If the two parents look normal, then the odds of the mutant gene being codominant to the normal gene and the dark snake being a super are astronomical against. Because if both parents look the way they are expected to look, then both parents would have to have the same spontaneous mutation take place. And then a sperm with that mutant gene would have to fertilize an egg with that mutant gene. Assuming the odds of that mutation as 1 in a thousand, the odds of a super would be something like 4 million to 1 against. Not odds I would bet the farm on.

Also look at the dark snake's brothers and sisters. If they look normal, then the odds against that dark snake being a super get higher.

I always recommend that a new mutant gene be assumed to be recessive to the corresponding normal gene. Then it is no disappointment to need two generations to get more. And it is a nice surprise if the mutant is a dominant or codominant gene.

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Just throwing that out there Paul ;) But good write up!

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Originally Posted by paulh

Look at the snake's parents.

I always recommend that a new mutant gene be assumed to be recessive to the corresponding normal gene. Then it is no disappointment to need two generations to get more. And it is a nice surprise if the mutant is a dominant or codominant gene.

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Oops. I missed the part in the original post that the dark snake was imported. No parents to look at. :( Thanks, RoseyReps.

I stick by the recommendation in the quote.

I agree! It was a good write up, just the parent comparison wouldn't work ;) Solid advice imo.

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Hmm duckbilled would actually imply homozygous form of the black pastel complex. Which would actually point more towards it being genetic, however... It could mean a developmental problem which gave it his appearance.

Again, I'm curious who imported this and their creditability.

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I may be mistaken, but I believe I held this animal at both the July 2012 and November 2012 Columbia Repticon shows. If it is the same animal, the man selling this animal at that time was named Leroy Adams. He said that he goes to Atlanta when one of his contacts gets new shipments in from Africa and he picks out the ones that have unique look to them and sells them. He had a number of interesting animals (imported and captive hatched) that he had on his table such as possible Leopard females and so forth.