Immune System Breakdown: Comparing bp morphs to purebred dogs

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Originally Posted by mechnut450

Ok good input so far guys, thanks. But some just a hair off topic....esp all the German Shepherd stuff. Truthfully, I was inquiring about their immune systems. It just seems to me, like dogs today, being selected and bred for certain traits, ball python morphs today and in the future might seem to develop immune problems more readily, and be more susceptible to illness. Especially considering more and more focus is being put on super forms, and triple, quad, and quint gene animals. And my friend is def not a newbie. Weve been breeding snakes for 10+ years, and hes been doing it much longer than we have. I told him I personally think its the room. there may be mold in the walls he cant see, or something like that. Hes considering that possibility. But anyways, really I love all the gorgeous colors and awesome possibilities of all the 4-5-6 gene animals...they are simply stunning and amazing! But Im also concerned that they wont be as healthy, or hardy as some of the older morphs and wild types.

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Reputable breeders keep inbreeding to a minimum. Most BP genes are totally free of health issues. And the ones that cause issues, well, these are known: http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php . But the link is a bit outdated, banana and coral glow appear to sit on a sex chromosome and do not impact health at all, and some strains of cinnamon and black pastell produce very nice super-forms that do not have an issue.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I agree.
Lots of breeds look so different than their original form.

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Look up Terrierman's Daily Dose and Pedigree Dogs Exposed - both the blog and the documentary. The AKC and the KC - along with people who breed dogs to aesthetic standards are ruining dogs and causing a lot of heartache and pain.

We lost a doberman to VWD two years ago and were aghast to find out what percentage of the dogs carry the gene. When researching the genetic disease rates for purebred dogs, do so with a strong stomach.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Look up Terrierman's Daily Dose and Pedigree Dogs Exposed - both the blog and the documentary. The AKC and the KC - along with people who breed dogs to aesthetic standards are ruining dogs and causing a lot of heartache and pain.

We lost a doberman to VWD two years ago and were aghast to find out what percentage of the dogs carry the gene. When researching the genetic disease rates for purebred dogs, do so with a strong stomach.

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Ugh, i just watched it. Its on youtube,"BBC Pedigree Dogs Exposed - full movie in good quality", link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZMegQH1SPg

im positive that this can be avoided in ball pythons.

I have a feeling some people are missing some key points on breeding snakes. In my 20+ years of keeping and breeding snakes, I have never had a ball python with RI. Not one.....and I have a lot of morphs....and quite a few inbred morphs. There is the notion that inbreeding is dangerous to snakes and should only be done two or three generations at most. The fact of the matter is snakes are non-migratory in nature. They always choose the exact same location for brumation....unless relocated. So when you see snakes using the same sites year after year after year, you have severe inbreeding. It is how locale phenotypes are created. To some specific keepers, outbreeding to other locales is a big no no. I'm not saying it's the end all be all, but you can't discredit breeders, specifically "big breeders", for inbreeding. Any of the big names that tell you they don't inbreed are flat out lying. It is how new genes are discovered whether good or bad. Mammals are another story. I am not saying you shouldn't add new blood into a project, so please think about what I'm trying to convey.

As for bad genes, it takes a few years to test. For example, with Caramel the kinking was thought to be from inbreeding. Turns out it is just something that comes with the morph whether inbred or not. Same goes for Spiders, Cinny, BP.....and I'm sure the list goes on.

I'm sure I'll get some heat on this post and if so, I'll try to elaborate more when I haven't bee awake for 20 hours. :gj: Until then, think about the genetics of the problem morphs we have seen.

For the original post, I would recommend a bacterial culture be done on a few animals to see if there is an underlying problem within the collection. Again, I have never once had a ball python with RI. Good luck and keep us posted.

thanks Brandon Osborne! That was the best yet. Very useful info that ive never thought about.....esp the migratory thing. And I will def pass along that info on the bacteria test to my buddy. :gj:

Yes, I'm not thinking we have been breeding ball pythons long enough to see anything like breeds in dogs. More inclined to think he picked up a nasty bug, maybe came in with some morphs? Knock on wood but I've been able to avoid RI in ball pythons. I suspect with larger collections it gets harder and harder to keep things like that out. Years ago I'd heard that most all big breeders have had at least one mass die off. Maybe the answer for large collections is to compartmentalize and somehow split them into completely separated smaller collections. That would defeat a lot of the economies of scale though.

I can't really say anything about snakes, because I am new to the different morphs of ball python... but in regards to dogs...

My whole live I've only ever had mutts. Most of my family and friends have only ever had mutts. There have only been a couple purebred dogs here and there that I've known. NOT ONE SINGLE mutt I've known has been healthy. At least half of them have had some kind of hip or elbow problem, most of them have had allergy issues, some of them have had mental issues, etc. My uncle has some purebred Basset Hounds, and I haven't heard of any issues he's had with them. My aunt had a purebred Dalmatian who had issues, but he also contracted parvo as a pup which contributed to some of those issues (mutts get parvo too, though). When I was a child my neighbor had a purebred Dachshund, and as far as I could remember he was healthy as can be up until he became an old little dog. Then one day he slipped a disk and had to be put to sleep (something I understand happens to Dachshunds and other long-backed breeds, but with this dog it didn't happen until he was OLD). A ranch I worked at had a purebred cattle dog, and I can't remember any health issues that dog ever had.

Not saying purebreds are better than mutts, just saying there's an awful lot of sick mutts out there too.

The problem is HOW the animal is bred. The problem with mutts is not that health problems are being selected for because they are associated with the desired traits, BUT they are inheriting issues from their purebred ancestors. Where a German Shepherd may have hip problems and a Collie has eye problems, a cross between those two breeds might end up inheriting BOTH issues. Doesn't always happen that way, but my experience tells me it happens a fair amount, but it seems in general people don't acknowledge it, instead focusing on the issues purebreds have because "everyone" knows purebreds are unhealthy.

I think in the end, the animals are only as good as the breeders who produce them. In a natural setting where generations and generations of random breeding take place, nature will select for the strongest. The "strongest" only means those who are best suited for the environment they live in, it really is not a single standard. What is a deleterious trait in one environment, may actually be an advantageous trait in another environment. For example... sickle cell anemia in humans, actually advantageous for those individuals who live in areas where malaria is common. The problem with captive breeding programs is that humans make the selection, and humans have a tendency to look at what they consider "pretty", "attractive", or otherwise "beneficial". There is a tendency to ignore the long term effects of these selections, and that can result in serious ramifications for health, whether the animal is purebred, wild type, or a mutt.

Thanks for all the insights guys. I saw my friend today, and I am hoping he can work the RI thing out. And I think maybe it isn't a breakdown of their immune systems after all, but its def something that will always stick in the back of my mind.:yes:

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

Reputable breeders keep inbreeding to a minimum. Most BP genes are totally free of health issues. And the ones that cause issues, well, these are known: http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php . But the link is a bit outdated, banana and coral glow appear to sit on a sex chromosome and do not impact health at all, and some strains of cinnamon and black pastell produce very nice super-forms that do not have an issue.

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What is outdated? banana/cg does not fit the definition of sex-linked, the anomaly makes it fall out of that definition? It is never stated that all have issues, but many do.

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Originally Posted by sorraia

I can't really say anything about snakes, because I am new to the different morphs of ball python... but in regards to dogs...

My whole live I've only ever had mutts. Most of my family and friends have only ever had mutts. There have only been a couple purebred dogs here and there that I've known. NOT ONE SINGLE mutt I've known has been healthy. At least half of them have had some kind of hip or elbow problem, most of them have had allergy issues, some of them have had mental issues, etc. My uncle has some purebred Basset Hounds, and I haven't heard of any issues he's had with them. My aunt had a purebred Dalmatian who had issues, but he also contracted parvo as a pup which contributed to some of those issues (mutts get parvo too, though). When I was a child my neighbor had a purebred Dachshund, and as far as I could remember he was healthy as can be up until he became an old little dog. Then one day he slipped a disk and had to be put to sleep (something I understand happens to Dachshunds and other long-backed breeds, but with this dog it didn't happen until he was OLD). A ranch I worked at had a purebred cattle dog, and I can't remember any health issues that dog ever had.

Not saying purebreds are better than mutts, just saying there's an awful lot of sick mutts out there too.

The problem is HOW the animal is bred. The problem with mutts is not that health problems are being selected for because they are associated with the desired traits, BUT they are inheriting issues from their purebred ancestors. Where a German Shepherd may have hip problems and a Collie has eye problems, a cross between those two breeds might end up inheriting BOTH issues. Doesn't always happen that way, but my experience tells me it happens a fair amount, but it seems in general people don't acknowledge it, instead focusing on the issues purebreds have because "everyone" knows purebreds are unhealthy.

I think in the end, the animals are only as good as the breeders who produce them. In a natural setting where generations and generations of random breeding take place, nature will select for the strongest. The "strongest" only means those who are best suited for the environment they live in, it really is not a single standard. What is a deleterious trait in one environment, may actually be an advantageous trait in another environment. For example... sickle cell anemia in humans, actually advantageous for those individuals who live in areas where malaria is common. The problem with captive breeding programs is that humans make the selection, and humans have a tendency to look at what they consider "pretty", "attractive", or otherwise "beneficial". There is a tendency to ignore the long term effects of these selections, and that can result in serious ramifications for health, whether the animal is purebred, wild type, or a mutt.

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THANK YOU!! After a decade of experience in vet clinics, I have become rather sick of hearing how much healthier mutts are than purebreds. It all comes down to the genetics that go into each animal, for good or ill. The difference? People know Boxers are prone to skin growths and Dobermans can die from anesthesia. People don't know if their Boxer/Doberman/shepherd/lab mix has the potential for hip problems, skin problems, allergies, and/or hypertension (neither the worst of all the ingredients or the best of all ingredients is guaranteed).