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Re: butter or lesser??????
I'm no expert nor do I claim to be, but I think "spitzu" is the closest to the point I was trying to make. My conspiracy theory is that once upon a time a person/persons, found these two similar snakes could produce a white snake, so they started to breed for this white snake. In the interum the offspring of these snakes are hard to determine since they look so similar, (or the genes just get even harder to detect when combined), they are sold as a butter when it's a lesser or the other way around......Now John, Jo and Jane get into the "project" and John buys a lesser that's really a butter. Jo buys a butter that's really a lesser. Jane wants to make a few bucks cause she just got a new car loan and puts on craigslist that she has a butter (when she really has a lesser) since where she is butters cost more then lesser. Now we are where we are today, I CHALLENGE ALL WHO HAVE POSTED TO THIS THREAD OR ANYONE WHO'S HAD A QUESTION ON WHAT "IN MY OPINION" IS A PIC OF A "TRUE LESSER" AND A "TRUE BUTTER"......and the bee morphs as well as any other combo of the "lesser" or the "butter", to go to this website livingartreptiles.com and from the left side choose the "MORPH GALLERY"!
Think about it at the end of the day all the feedback I get is that you cannot tell them apart anyway so how the hell is everyone sure I have a lesser......LOL!
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I'm no expert nor do I claim to be, but I think "spitzu" is the closest to the point I was trying to make. My conspiracy theory is that once upon a time a person/persons, found these two similar snakes could produce a white snake, so they started to breed for this white snake. In the interum the offspring of these snakes are hard to determine since they look so similar, (or the genes just get even harder to detect when combined), they are sold as a butter when it's a lesser or the other way around......Now John, Jo and Jane get into the "project" and John buys a lesser that's really a butter. Jo buys a butter that's really a lesser. Jane wants to make a few bucks cause she just got a new car loan and puts on craigslist that she has a butter (when she really has a lesser) since where she is butters cost more then lesser. Now we are where we are today, I CHALLENGE ALL WHO HAVE POSTED TO THIS THREAD OR ANYONE WHO'S HAD A QUESTION ON WHAT "IN MY OPINION" IS A PIC OF A "TRUE LESSER" AND A "TRUE BUTTER"......and the bee morphs as well as any other combo of the "lesser" or the "butter", to go to this website livingartreptiles.com and from the left side choose the "MORPH GALLERY"!
Think about it at the end of the day all the feedback I get is that you cannot tell them apart anyway so how the hell is everyone sure I have a lesser......LOL!
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Re: butter or lesser??????
http://imageevent.com/livingartrepti...=0&w=1&s=0&z=2 (THE TRUE BUTTER's PIC...."IN MY OPINION")
http://imageevent.com/livingartrepti...=0&w=1&s=0&z=2 (THE TRUE LESSER's PIC...."IN MY OPINION")
Do a side by side notice how the butters black is browner, notice how the lesser's blacks are more rich.....now this is based on my theory that people are excepting the one for the other....! You decide!!!! I'm out to prove it!
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Re: butter or lesser??????
The proof is in clutch mates looking completely different, I looked before but couldn't find it, but there was a picture a couple years back of two snakes one looking very yellow and what everyone said was a typical butter back then and then one that looked like what was called a typical lesser back then. Later reviled that the two snakes were in fact clutchmates. Also as someone who has produced his fair share of lessers, I have had some more yellow, so with higher flames, some blushed out more than others, some with darker blacks. All father by the same snake. What I say comes from personal experience along with seeing tons of other examples. They are the same thing.
I also not sure what your challenge is supposed to prove? One example of each animal?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treachery
I'm glad the lesser girl I'm getting looks like a true lesser in your opinion. :clap:
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Re: butter or lesser??????
Quote:
Originally Posted by treachery
What about my lesser which has almost no black on him at all? I know he is a "true" lesser, I can't speak for my female, but she was sold as a lesser.
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Re: butter or lesser??????
Quote:
Originally Posted by treachery
With your thought process, then I guess that means Lemon Pastels, Graziani Pastels, Citrus Pastels, and Bell Pastels must all be different morphs. They each have their own unique physical characteristic that defines that line of pastel. A quality Graziani looks nothing like a Lemon. Thoughts?
You need more examples other than 2 snakes. What you think is "true" may not be "true" to another person. The sample size is much too small to come to a conclusion.
The looks of the same morph or combo very greatly. There is no "set look", just guidelines.
Like I mentioned before, there are brighter, darker, clean, dirty, reduced, busy, etc etc, examples of Butters and Lessers. They can look totally alike and very different.
And like AWOL stated, the physical looks on a clutch of the same morph can very greatly, but in the end, they're still the same morph.
And the variance you are seeing in your two examples are based on individual parental influence***!
My lesser is a more yellow example of the morph. Typically people think "creamy" when they think lesser. And vice versa with Butter.
Does that mean it's not a "true" lesser?
I wish you luck on proving your theory. But I have to be honest, the outcome looks bleak.
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Quote:
The differences you are seeing between black butters vs black platinums, pastel lessers vs pastel butters, butter bees vs lesser bees, etc etc are a direct heritable result of the individual parents and different examples of the morph. There are bright reduced butters, but there are also equally bright reduced lessers. Both morphs can also have really creamy busy examples too, and so on.
And when it comes to combos, you have to take parental looks into consideration as well. Both parents contribute to the offspring. A busy spider could have bred to a lesser for a busy lesser spider offspring compared to a reduced spider breeding to a butter for a more reduced butter spider offspring. A blushed out pastel bred to a lesser could have more blushed out offspring than a less blushed out pastel to a butter. A darker black pastel has influence as well as a browner black pastel.
P.S. Thank you for the neg rep points. I guess the opinions, observations, and possible facts of others means nothing to you.
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Re: butter or lesser??????
Quote:
Originally Posted by satomi325
With your thought process, then I guess that means Lemon Pastels, Graziani Pastels, Citrus Pastels, and Bell Pastels must all be different morphs. They each have their own unique physical characteristic that defines that line of pastel. A quality Graziani looks nothing like a Lemon. Thoughts?
You need more examples other than 2 snakes. What you think is "true" may not be "true" to another person. The sample size is much too small to come to a conclusion.
The looks of the same morph or combo very greatly. There is no "set look", just guidelines.
Like I mentioned before, there are brighter, darker, clean, dirty, reduced, busy, etc etc, examples of Butters and Lessers. They can look totally alike and very different.
And like AWOL stated, the physical looks on a clutch of the same morph can very greatly, but in the end, they're still the same morph.
And the variance you are seeing in your two examples are based on individual parental influence***!
My lesser is a more yellow example of the morph. Typically people think "creamy" when they think lesser. And vice versa with Butter.
Does that mean it's not a "true" lesser?
I wish you luck on proving your theory. But I have to be honest, the outcome looks bleak.
***
P.S. Thank you for the neg rep points. I guess the opinions, observations, and possible facts of others means nothing to you.
He seriously left you negative rep for that? Wow. I'm pretty sure that qualifies as abuse of the rep system...if it's not, it should be. Negative rep for a well written response and opinion...awesome move guy. :rolleyes:
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Re: butter or lesser??????
This whole thing isn't meant to be a dis to anyone, so if you take it that way I will offer an apology, but also ask you to you check your ego....it's a bad thing to have as a scientist.....on a lighter note all I'm saying is that I have a simple scientific hypothesis.....at the end of the day that's what this section is all about right???? Morphs and Genetics. So i was under the impression that everyone here was a "herpetologist" by love!!!!!
Two points.......My Hypothesis is that somewhere down the line we "switched them at birth"...lol (for all the 80's babies out there!!!) because they do look so similar!
1st is Gene's....Im a black guy....my wife is Mexican....LOL I know Im a walking comedy act. So gene's are something I see in my childern, I have three. My oldest has dark skin and curly hair, and tall and thin like me. My middle child is very light skin and also has curly hair, but is a little thicker and shorter. My youngest at this point in his life doesn't even look mixed, and looks very much like his great grandfather on his moms side. SOOOOO....LOL the point I'm trying to make is us "BLACKS" come in shades of very dark to very light. But we are all "Black", and the same can be said with my Mexican family. PREGUNTAS? IF THEY ARE THE SAME WHY GIVE THEM TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT TITLES???? MY FIRST QUESTION?
2nd is IF THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT TYPES THEN MY HYPOTHESIS CAN BE PROVEN, AND I SHOULD BE ABLE TO BREED A BETTER LINE OF BOTH...and isn't that part of being a scientist? By thinking for yourself and questioning authority....."WE" once accepted that the earth was the center of the universe, further study changed this, that leeches and bloodletting worked as cures for diseases...this list goes on and on..
So again I asked to see what my "Community" had to say, and got just the responses I thought I'd get....Now I can start to "chase the ghost" and who knows maybe it will prove fruitless! Or maybe I'll give us some cool results....that part of the fun...Right?
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Re: butter or lesser??????
But by your own admission - in your own family your children represent the full spectrum.
Lessers and butters do the same thing. They both range from very bright to very dark - because they are the same thing.
Which is the lesser and which is the butter?
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...serFemale4.jpg
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Re: butter or lesser??????
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabernet
But by your own admission - in your own family your children represent the full spectrum.
Lessers and butters do the same thing. They both range from very bright to very dark - because they are the same thing.
Which is the lesser and which is the butter?
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...serFemale4.jpg
IMHO - if there's any confusion, it's because some guy buys a female lesser, but decides the breeder doesn't know what they're talking about so they're going to call their lesser a butter and market as one instead. Sound familiar? Just sayin......
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