Sad and Angry, have you seen this before?

Sorry to hear, that sucks... Was he an import or verified CB?

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Originally Posted by KMG

I thought about it. I bought the cage preassembled and didn't have to seal anything. I thought gases from the rhp shouldn't be the cause but I wanted to make sure for future knowledge. While a necropsy may give me an answer it will not bring her back and at this point I don't think it was anything I had control of. The gas was just my first thought after a seizure and I wanted to ask the forum to make sure I failed to read a warning on rhp's.

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It definitely won't bring her back.

However, without a necropsy, you won't know whether it was a latent defect or something that can be transmitted to the rest of your collection. It is not uncommon for viruses, especially adenoviruses, to be asymptomatic for long periods of time and then suddenly strike, sometimes with a stress trigger, sometimes not. The final throes will lead you to believe it is a neurological issue when it may not be.

The point is that healthy young snakes do not suddenly die without a cause. If your husbandry was correct then it is narrowed down to a congenital issue or a pathogen. Congenital issues are not really triggered by stress - diseases are. If you are putting your money on a defect, then so be it. On a young seemingly healthy snake that was thriving until recently, I would necropsy the animal.

If that were my animal, I would have it necropsied, without a doubt.

I am very sorry for your loss, she was a beautiful snake!

It was said to be a farm raised import. But the previous owner also said she never struck at or bit him. So I think I could have some wrong information. He also said I could contact him for any question that pops up but when I tried he would not reply back.

A necropsy would have been best but I had already deposed of her. If my fiance found a dead snake in the frig my head would be sitting next to it. That is no excuse I know but I do try to tread lightly with my collection and her. She is not a snake person at all.

I really didn't think it could be a virus laying wait to attack. You have taught me something new. Thank you. It never even crossed my mind.

Do the events I described sound like anything you have heard of before?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KMG

It was said to be a farm raised import. But the previous owner also said she never struck at or bit him. So I think I could have some wrong information. He also said I could contact him for any question that pops up but when I tried he would not reply back.

A necropsy would have been best but I had already deposed of her. If my fiance found a dead snake in the frig my head would be sitting next to it. That is no excuse I know but I do try to tread lightly with my collection and her. She is not a snake person at all.

I really didn't think it could be a virus laying wait to attack. You have taught me something new. Thank you. It never even crossed my mind.

Do the events I described sound like anything you have heard of before?

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I have had direct experience with animals I have bred.

A few years ago I lost a young suboc who was seemingly healthy to adenovirus. The animal was bred by me, and had no contact with any recent acquisitions. In fact, it was during a stretch in which I had not added any animals for almost 18 months.

Over a period of a couple weeks, this male two year old Bogertophis Subocularis began acting odd.

The signs were subtle. He stopped using his favorite hides and hung out in places he never hung out before. There were no other symptoms.

The following week, he refused his meal and his eyes were dialated. I made an appointment with the vet for the following day.

The next morning, he was dead. There were no other symptoms. He had not had diarrhea, he had not shown any signs of neurological damage, he had just shed and had no issues with that either. There was no weight loss, corkscrewing, stargazing or respiratory infection symptoms. He had a slight reddish cast to the front of his snout. That was it.

The necropsy showed that his intestines and stomach were severely infected and covered in serious lesions (necrotizing gastritis). Tissue samples were sent to UCD for analysis.

I quarantine all my animals, religiously disinfect my hands between handling different animals and scrupulously clean all of the enclosures on a very regular rotation. My vet performs a house call once a year and fecal samples are submitted at this time.

At this point, I began to fear OPMV, maybe crypto or some other disease (IBD) that can remain latent for extended periods of time.

Histopathology came back today and inclusion bodies consistent with adenovirus were found in the samples.

People who keep bearded dragons (I am not one of them) are quite familiar with adenovirus. It has been reported in several species of snakes. I don't see it discussed often on any of the forums and the information out there is somewhat tedious to go through.

The vet and the lab thought that the animal may have had it since birth and had been successfully battling with it for the last two years. Apparently, it can be kept in check in some cases, in others, it presents itself much like IBD can - chronic acute/subclinical symptoms that are triggered by stress.

Both the vet and the lab informed me that this is not an airborne pathogen but that it can be transmitted to other animals in a collection.

Oftentimes, people come to this and other forums asking the "group" to diagnose particular illnesses. One of the problems with snakes is that many illnesses, the adenovirus, IBD, crypto, OPMV, etc,, have similar symptoms. Some of these symptoms also overlap into amoebiasis and other parasitic infections.

If one of your snakes dies, for the sake of the community in general, have it necropsied so that you can find the causative agent.

After the death of the animal I corresponded with several Trans-Pecos Ratsnake owners and/or breeders who have discussed undiagnosed chronic wasting disorders in these animals. Talking to both the lab and the vet confirmed that rat snakes in general tend to be more prone to adenovirus infection. The sad part is that since few people opt for necropsies or histopathology, the true extent of the prevalence in other species of snakes is unknown.

Skiploder,

Thank you very much for taking the time to share that story and information. I truly acted ignorantly and will not make this mistake again. I hope I never have to deal with another sudden death but I am now better informed in the event I do.I try to research my animals fully but I have never read about any of this. I need to and will.



Thanks to everyone again

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KMG

Skiploder,

Thank you very much for taking the time to share that story and information. I truly acted ignorantly and will not make this mistake again. I hope I never have to deal with another sudden death but I am now better informed in the event I do.I try to research my animals fully but I have never read about any of this. I need to and will.



Thanks to everyone again

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You didn't act ignorantly. I was in no way trying to imply that............

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skiploder

I have had direct experience with animals I have bred.

A few years ago I lost a young suboc who was seemingly healthy to adenovirus. The animal was bred by me, and had no contact with any recent acquisitions. In fact, it was during a stretch in which I had not added any animals for almost 18 months.

Over a period of a couple weeks, this male two year old Bogertophis Subocularis began acting odd.

The signs were subtle. He stopped using his favorite hides and hung out in places he never hung out before. There were no other symptoms.

The following week, he refused his meal and his eyes were dialated. I made an appointment with the vet for the following day.

The next morning, he was dead. There were no other symptoms. He had not had diarrhea, he had not shown any signs of neurological damage, he had just shed and had no issues with that either. There was no weight loss, corkscrewing, stargazing or respiratory infection symptoms. He had a slight reddish cast to the front of his snout. That was it.

The necropsy showed that his intestines and stomach were severely infected and covered in serious lesions (necrotizing gastritis). Tissue samples were sent to UCD for analysis.

I quarantine all my animals, religiously disinfect my hands between handling different animals and scrupulously clean all of the enclosures on a very regular rotation. My vet performs a house call once a year and fecal samples are submitted at this time.

At this point, I began to fear OPMV, maybe crypto or some other disease (IBD) that can remain latent for extended periods of time.

Histopathology came back today and inclusion bodies consistent with adenovirus were found in the samples.

People who keep bearded dragons (I am not one of them) are quite familiar with adenovirus. It has been reported in several species of snakes. I don't see it discussed often on any of the forums and the information out there is somewhat tedious to go through.

The vet and the lab thought that the animal may have had it since birth and had been successfully battling with it for the last two years. Apparently, it can be kept in check in some cases, in others, it presents itself much like IBD can - chronic acute/subclinical symptoms that are triggered by stress.

Both the vet and the lab informed me that this is not an airborne pathogen but that it can be transmitted to other animals in a collection.

Oftentimes, people come to this and other forums asking the "group" to diagnose particular illnesses. One of the problems with snakes is that many illnesses, the adenovirus, IBD, crypto, OPMV, etc,, have similar symptoms. Some of these symptoms also overlap into amoebiasis and other parasitic infections.

If one of your snakes dies, for the sake of the community in general, have it necropsied so that you can find the causative agent.

After the death of the animal I corresponded with several Trans-Pecos Ratsnake owners and/or breeders who have discussed undiagnosed chronic wasting disorders in these animals. Talking to both the lab and the vet confirmed that rat snakes in general tend to be more prone to adenovirus infection. The sad part is that since few people opt for necropsies or histopathology, the true extent of the prevalence in other species of snakes is unknown.

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Many people don't realize there is a HUGE overlap in reptile diseases even between snakes to lizards and back...many diseases...specifically viruses and bacteria can jump species overtime or even pass from humans to animals instead of the standard path of animals to humans. One sub species may even just be considered a carrier for a virus that may prove 100% fatal to another related subspecies. Stressor events can do unimaginable things to any living organisms immune system...include result in pushing it over the edge.

That being said...she was a beautiful animal and Im really sorry for your loss...

So I have a rough Idea of what happened. So I believe it was a parasite your snake got from eating maybe an unhealthy rat/mouse. The parasite then went to the brain, causing the seizures. Them went to the eyes, therefore popping blood vessels in the eye. Sorry for your loss :(.....

So sorry for your loss :(. It's always hard losing a snake.

After reading the whole thread I though I'd share my experience with the GTP we lost last year. It's not exactly the same but something he did reminded me of your GTP and the fact you found her with bedding in her mouth. Our Biak used to strike at EVERYTHING at night. One night we walked into the room and turned on the light and heard him strike but soon noticed he hit a bit of moss that was on the bottom of the cage and was constricting it. I had to use forceps to clean out all the pieces of moss but he was fine because the pieces were big. A few months later he regurged two meals in a row so I took him to the vet. The vet and I agreed to do a fecal test as soon as he pooped and wait two weeks to try feeding him again. Well, he passed away a week later before a fecal could be done so I had a necropsy done and he ended up having a load of intestinal parasites. I don't believe that having tried to eat moss had anything to do with his passing, however. Anyway, I don't remember reading that your GTP regurged but I was thinking maybe it was something as simple as her striking at the bedding and getting a mouth full of it, aspirating some and choking. There was another story I read on MVF of a GTP that ate the paper towel on the bottom of its tub (with out a feeder present). Randomly striking at the ground seems to be pretty common. It's just a thought and I hope you were able to get another one. Your set-up is awesome :).