Maybe it's just me, but...

No one is bashing anyone. You are entitled to your opinion, but I prefer a little evidence to back up my opinions. Have you met anyone or know of anyone who specifically breeds ball pythons for money only? I surely don't know of anyone like that. Sure the money is nice but 99% of breeders got into breeding because of their love for the animals.

Don't let a few crappy individuals ruin the hobby for you. I assure you the majority of us are not like the people you describe.
We are just merely pointing out that people who breed for money only are few and far between.

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Originally Posted by William C

I see this forum hasn't changed a bit since we started it years ago. This is the exact reason why we got rid of it. One person has an opinion and everyone else wants to try to make them feel bad about it.

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Sounds like someone needs his diapy changed, cuz it's got a BIG load in it.

You've had NOTHING to do with this site for years, your hand is in no way present in what it's become. You're acting like a big ol baby now. Are you going to take you pail and shovel and go home if we don't be nicer to you?

If you don't like it here, there's a site, a veritable league of their own, who welcome those who think like you do, whine like you do, and take offense like you do.

You've got your opinion. Cool. I've got mine. Also cool. You don't like mine and I couldn't care less what you think. Also cool. You seem to care a great deal about what other people think about what you think. Not so cool.

More sage advice: think twice, post once.

A conversation is usually two sided. As is a discussion. No one is saying you're not allowed to think the way you do, they are giving their counter thoughts.

you: I don't think this is right and here's why
person A: I don't agree with you. Here's why.
Person B: I also don't agree with you. Here's why
you: Y u no let me have opinion?!


If you are feeling "stupid" because of your opinion, I believe that has very little to do with people "bashing you" (Which in this thread, wilomn was the only one that was bash-resemblent) and more to do with the fact no one else agrees with you. Making you second guess your opinion, thus "feeling stupid".

My opinion? People wouldn't be breeding these animals if they didn't care for them. Are there people that don't take proper care of their bps? Of course. Do those people have websites, high reputations, or are a regular part of the hobby? I would imagine not. Are those that are not taking care of / love their bps making money? I seriously doubt their even breaking even.

You bought from a breeder who showed no care if the animal was taken care of or not. You had a choice on whom to buy from, and you chose them. That, was your mistake. If people are not caring, why would you give them business? It's the same as a petstore, WHY would you give them business, enabling them to continue their mistreatment.

I would be interested as well to have a name or names of breeders who do not like BPs that are breeding.

Another thing to consider is when people are buying $500+ morphs...they tend to make sure that $500 gets the best care it can. This is why you don't often see "sickly" or "mistreated" morphs on CL. What do you find? Hundreds of normals that people bought from petstores. And every once in a while a lower end morph.

I plan on breeding one day. Will I make money year 1? nope. Do I expect to make some money year 5? Maybe break even..if I'm lucky. Year 10? 15? 20? Well, I hope to be able to make a little money (that I will probably just put right back into the hobby lol) Do I think I'll EVER make a living off of breeding snakes? No. The space, time, money, time, employees, time...needed to maintain and get that big are just not likely going to be in my future.

I think if you opened your mind a bit, you would see that the majority of people who wish to breed one day, or are currently breeding, do it for the joy and hobby and the DREAM that one day, they can do what they love every day, and be able to feed their families from it. Or at least maintain that which they love.

If people who breed snakes to try and make a living "disgust" you, then that is your right. But if you thought your post wouldn't ruffle some feathers here, especially when most of the members here breed or want to breed one day, then you are just being silly. It would be like me going on PETA forums saying "Anyone who supports peta disgusts me. No offense though" If you feel the need to say "No offense" after something, you already know it would cause offense :P :colbert: Hope I didn't "bash" too much. Again...a conversation, discussion, etc has two sides. You've stated yours, now we're all stating ours ;)

Edit: And I'm sorry...you used to own this site...so you sold it because it became a bash fest? Well..the people who bought it have done a wonderful job where you and your partners did not then. I have seen nothing but friendliness in the majority of posts (this being a good example of the non friendly posts) People ask silly questions, or do silly things that on other sites would get bashed and flamed for (good lord does that other site like to flame) where as here members try and correct them. Are there some that would rather make snarky comments? sure. But those are very few and far between. If you think this thread is rude or everyone is bashing you...lord I hope you stay far away from basically every other forum on the planet. The internet is full of trolls...there seems to be a very, very low amount here thankfully.

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Originally Posted by William C

I understand what all of you are saying, and I respect each and every one of your opinions. So why am I not entitled to my own? Do you see me bashing any of you for the way you feel? I started this thread for friendly conversation, not so all of you would try to make me feel stupid for caring about what goes on in the breeding industry. I see this forum hasn't changed a bit since we started it years ago. This is the exact reason why we got rid of it. One person has an opinion and everyone else wants to try to make them feel bad about it.

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I think because it feels like you are insinuating that should one go into the business of breeding and selling ball pythons in an attempt to make money, that they don't care about the snakes enough to provide them with the proper means to keep them healthy and happy, as opposed to individuals such as yourself, that simply own the snakes based on pure desire and want. And you are proclaiming that in a forum largely populated by people that are in fact attempting to begin or have already begun the business of breeding and selling ball pythons. So that accusation is naturally insulting to the individual that wishes to make a profit from it in some way. I personally am not offended or insulted, but I can understand how some are based on your opinion. Your opinion suggests that you are in some way morally superior because you care about your snakes so much more than "us". It's all about your choice of words and your approach. I honestly believe that most people who make the decision to breed ball pythons for potential profit, care for the snakes as much if not more than the average or extreme hobbyist. You HAVE to be a passionate person in order to embark on such a journey, because the time, energy, work, money, etc. required to go into this as a business in hopes to possibly at the very least provide yourself with a supplemental income, is immense. I don't think it would even be possible to take a shot at it if you didn't care. I never understood why some derive this negative opinion about ball python breeders. I really want to make some extra money doing something I love. I love ball pythons and the way I see it there is money to be made breeding and selling them. Why is that wrong? I could understand if you came to my house and my snakes were suffering due to inadequate care and husbandry. But I am about as particular and anal as one could be when it comes to the well being of my snakes, pet and breeder alike. So as long as that is not an issue, why would it bother anybody?

How about a tid-bit from a newbie like me?

One, I've been on this site I think starting this year, early. This is the first "bashing" as you call it, I've seen on here. You did come on here drawing guns, and people are shooting back. Your first post since signing up was all about "I created this site, and was co-owner"...I don't think anyone really jumped on it like you were a celebrity, and maybe this pissed you off for lack of respect. I just don't think anyone really cared, as that was about 10 years ago. Welcome back, sorry you started off on bad terms, cause it seems that way.

So, a little history about me for you. I have always loved reptiles, and animals. I currently own 10 bps, and getting my 11th tomorrow. I love them all, keeping all my males, and not using them to stud, then sell. Am I looking for money in this? Yes, of course...why not? I can have a hobby of snakes I love, and perhaps make some money on the side. I do have a job, actually a career (going on 8 years now). Do I make a lot off my career? yes....why do I want more money? Well, I'm over $2500 into this, and haven't made 1 cent yet. Do I care I haven't made anything? No. Why? Cause I love these snakes.
I breed my own rats too. So, honestly, this is a lot of work. When you work, don't you expect to be paid? I know I do, except, I'm my own boss. Why can't people try to make a small business for themselves?? Supply and demand right? It's not easy taking care of all these animals, but it's being done.

This site has been nothing but amazing useful information, and great community support. Then, you came back 10 years later, and looking to cause a stir in the pond.

I'm just wondering how many "snake farms/mills" you've actually seen or heard of?

My question is, where do you get your animals from...? Or where do you think thee animals come from in the first place? From people like us who have a passion for reptiles, or for business, or for genetics, or any combination there of. I say, this was the wrong place to post your opinion seeing as its a community full of BREEDERS and reptile enthusiats who obviously support Breeders because honestly, we make the best owners, and make the best animals you so passionatly adore. To me personally, they aren't just pets that I love, they're also assets, and investment vehicles, so they get the BEST care. To insiuate breeders are bad keepers couldn't be farther from the truth. Quite the contrary. We make the perfect keepers

Bashing aside.. I don't discourage breeding anything as long as the breeder cares enough for the animals. Proper care, housing, food, etc.. I do however, try to stress to people who want to breed reptiles to first own a few of what they like for awhile. Raise up babies. Get a rack. See what goes into the entire process. I also stress that BPs are picky and feeding habits can change. It is very difficult to start hatchlings on F/T (but not impossible) so breeding your own feeders will likely be necessary. Some babies won't eat at all and need an assist feed or 2 to get them going. Some may not sell until the following spring. Etc etc.

As far as the money goes, that all depends on your collection. People thinking they will get rich off of basic morphs are mistaken. Unless they have many females to breed, have gorgeous morphs, and will have many babies. That's a lot of rack room, a big incubator, and a lot of food.

I just try to get people new to the hobby to realize the amount of time and initial money that would go into all of that.

As for the market being saturated, the only bad thing I see happening with morphs is their quality dropping. Too many new people buying whatever they can afford and then not breeding for quality or to improve that morph. Like pastels for instance. I rarely see the beautiful pastels that were around some years ago.

The truth is, if you breed for quality, you will make money on your animals. People will pay the extra money for a great example of the morph. If your collection is built with great examples of every morph, and all of your normal females are very light, or have tons of flames with great blushing and contrast, then you will produce more great examples of your morphs.

I don't see why you (the OP) should worry about anyone who jumps into breeding. If they fail they fail. If they get tired of it, so what? Is it effecting your life? If you were a breeder, and one who was dedicated to improving on everything you did with your animals, it would actually be helping you when that happened wouldn't it?

Just my 2€

I honestly dont see any bashing here. This looks like a good heated debate. Instead of complaining come back with a counter argument. Thats what a debate is imo. Wilomn's name calling is just Wilomn being Wilomn haha :p

As far as the topic, i disagree with you too bc i believe as long as the snakes are cared for who cares whether youre doing it outta love or to make money? I dont see how taking care of snakes would be a fun business if you at least didnt like them a little bit, but to each their own. As long as you do it right and youre happy, who cares? Its not like the snakes love you back and thrive better when taken care of with love.

I dont think being a septic truck driver would be a very fun career. But if i was good at and made good money dealing with other peoples crap id be all over it.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but I think it was poorly thought out. And it feels like over the past few years it's become trendy to get offended over what other people do with their lives.

It seems like there are deeper issues that are causing your anger, such as a specific negative experience you have had, or a specific person you think is a bad reptile owner. It's sort of a superficial anger.

The other thing it reminds me of is how when I was a teenager, I used to rebel against what was popular (total goth phase). You get a sort of sense of elitism because you do things differently than other people. You care more, you think more, etc. It makes you feel special because other people haven't achieved your point of view. And you get the sense that if they TRULY knew what was important, they would be more like you.

In the end, it turns out that people all have very different values and interests in life, and getting upset because of how one person chooses to do things is exhausting and a waste of time. Just because they do things differently does not mean they are less of a good person, or less intelligent, or less of an asset to society. It doesn't even mean that they are not doing things as well as you are. It just means they are doing them differently.

In less abstract terms: Just because somebody keeps snakes differently, or wants to breed them for profit, doesn't make them a less compassionate or attentive pet owner than you.

It amuses me when people post threads much like this one. A word of advice to anyone that wishes to express their opinions in any way shape or form: you will get a response and often you will not much like that response. As said before think twice post once. If you dont want to get flamed or bashed, a good way to avoid that is keeping your thought to yourself.

I also plan to breed. I would love to make some money off of it. If I end up doing it for a living then that would be a dream come true. My snakes are investments. I take VERY good care of them. The last thing I want is one of my snakes to die. I am also fascinated by snakes and therefore just enjoy keeping them. The fact that there is such a variety makes it even better.