Thoughts on culling...when and/or when not to?

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Originally Posted by Maixx

There was a local breeder I walked away from.
He talked about how hard it was to move normals and how he needed his limited space for snakes that he could sell, so when his eggs hatch out, he culls off any normals.

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Reading this made me enraged. Didnt know people culled normals off just because they dont make money, thats ridiculous!!! Good for you for walking away. I think Aaron summed up the mindset people should have quite well in his first post - I personally would keep them all because you assume the responsibility of bringing new life into the world.

Heres two videos for those who havent seen them: First one is eyeless and its from Ben Siegel and the second are kinked caramels from Kevin McCurley.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aXLzznMFBQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baquu5GYyVA

Just a correction the second video is made by Ralph Davis. Not Kevin from Nerd.


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Guys, first of let me say I personally dont think there is any way I would be able to kill any snake of mine, especially one that I had bred and raised.

But depending on the type of mutation...culls need to be done. If we don't cull, the snake hobby will end up just like dogs, thousands of unhealthy animals, predispositioned to things like disease or organ malfunction. Just look at dogs. Not only are there tons of unwanted mutts that are too large in number to all get a nice home, but even all the normal, pure breeds of dogs come with lots of health risks and genetic deformities. It may take 10 years or 50 years or 200 years, but lets not let that happen.
At the very least, don't breed them.

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Originally Posted by omnibus2

Guys, first of let me say I personally dont think there is any way I would be able to kill any snake of mine, especially one that I had bred and raised.

But depending on the type of mutation...culls need to be done. If we don't cull, the snake hobby will end up just like dogs, thousands of unhealthy animals, predispositioned to things like disease or organ malfunction. Just look at dogs. Not only are there tons of unwanted mutts that are too large in number to all get a nice home, but even all the normal, pure breeds of dogs come with lots of health risks and genetic deformities. It may take 10 years or 50 years or 200 years, but lets not let that happen.
At the very least, don't breed them.

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I'm not breeding Quetzal (most likely), but I just wanted to point out that in the dog world, the purebreds with health issues are dogs that were not bred by reputable breeders. Those with genetic health issues, bad temperaments, and don't fit standard in terms of color or structure are "humanely culled" by speutering. Unfortanately you can't neuter a snake or garentee that the new owner will never breed the snake, and snakes themselves don't have such strict standards on what is considered good breeding stock. So either snake owners crack down and do some strict self regulating and adopt all the lovely (ick) politics of the dog breeding world or it'll all remain up to a person's personal judgement.

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Originally Posted by omnibus2

Guys, first of let me say I personally dont think there is any way I would be able to kill any snake of mine, especially one that I had bred and raised.

But depending on the type of mutation...culls need to be done. If we don't cull, the snake hobby will end up just like dogs, thousands of unhealthy animals, predispositioned to things like disease or organ malfunction. Just look at dogs. Not only are there tons of unwanted mutts that are too large in number to all get a nice home, but even all the normal, pure breeds of dogs come with lots of health risks and genetic deformities. It may take 10 years or 50 years or 200 years, but lets not let that happen.
At the very least, don't breed them.

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But if the animal is able to live a good life why doe sit need to die. why can't we as a community just take the responsibility and just not breed them?

I understand what some of you are saying, that a snake not fit for breeding isn't going to thrive. I'd say most of the time this is probably case, but not all of the time.As I said if the animal isn't going to be able to live a good life, putting it down is the best thing to do but if it can live a good live why not let it? If you breed an animal you need to be prepared to make the hard decisions then live with them.

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Originally Posted by Jazi

I'm not breeding Quetzal (most likely), but I just wanted to point out that in the dog world, the purebreds with health issues are dogs that were not bred by reputable breeders. Those with genetic health issues, bad temperaments, and don't fit standard in terms of color or structure are "humanely culled" by speutering. Unfortanately you can't neuter a snake or garentee that the new owner will never breed the snake, and snakes themselves don't have such strict standards on what is considered good breeding stock. So either snake owners crack down and do some strict self regulating and adopt all the lovely (ick) politics of the dog breeding world or it'll all remain up to a person's personal judgement.

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Gah, one of the reasons I love this hobby is that it doesn't have the crazy snooty politics of the mammal breeder hobbies. I've seen a couple of posts where users say that pet rat breeders will get all over you for breeding without apprenticing or something. Just... no. We have our silly fights and crazy arguments (BOI :rolleyes: ) but this hobby is very open minded for the most part, and diverse. I love it that way!

Anyway, as far as culling goes, I'd cull in a heartbeat if I felt that it was necessary. An animal starving itself, being born with incubation complications, or a kink bad enough to prevent a healthy life are some examples, but seeing as I don't breed yet I can't say for sure. I figure if the snake can eat and seems to be a good pet, I'll take care of it or give it to a home that wants it.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Im not questioning your choice but why not breed her? I mean bps dont have the best eyesite anyways and its not like they need to really see to breed. Is it bc youre afraid it might be genetic or something?

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Exactly the reason. Her breeder and myself both think it may have been incubation stress, but there were others in the clutch that were deformed, and some that were not. Personally, I don't see the need to breed what could be a genetic defect, knowing I might have to cull the babies, when she can live a perfectly normal life as a pet and spokes-snake for the hobby. I just don't think the possible reward outweighs the potential heartbreak.

Gale

You people are not understanding what culling is. Culling is not putting an unhealthy animal down. Its selectively killing healthy animals to control ratios. If you whoever you are think that culling is necessary then you need to stop breeding cause you dont have a clue.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

You people are not understanding what culling is. Culling is not putting an unhealthy animal down. Its selectively killing healthy animals to control ratios. If you whoever you are think that culling is necessary then you need to stop breeding cause you dont have a clue.

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Might be different in the reptile world, but culling when talking about pet mammals and livestock is removing undesired traits from the breeding stock. Many people reserve true culling (aka, euth) for animals with genetic traits that prevent them from surviving and use "humane culling" (aka spay/neuter) for animals that simply don't fit the bill when it comes to a pre-defined standard for what is "acceptable" and what is not. Culling when talking about deer populations is killing healthy animals to control ratios.

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Gah, one of the reasons I love this hobby is that it doesn't have the crazy snooty politics of the mammal breeder hobbies. I've seen a couple of posts where users say that pet rat breeders will get all over you for breeding without apprenticing or something. Just... no. We have our silly fights and crazy arguments (BOI :rolleyes:) but this hobby is very open minded for the most part, and diverse. I love it that way!

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As someone who will be getting two working dogs of the large german breed variety (GSD and Doberman no less) once I purchase a house, I definitely understand why the politics are there, but yes, they are quite annoying and people argue about them until they're blue in the face. I personally like the idea of an immediate spay/neuter used as "culling" for dogs that don't fit the bill, especially since there are so many unwanted and unhealthy dogs already being bred, but since that's not a viable option for reptiles we'd be left with killing off any undesired traits that show up or keeping specimens that show undesired traits to ourselves in a "not to be bred" section. Not really something that most people would look upon without at least frowning should breeding adopt such strict politics and standards.

So instead it's left to the breeder's own personal choice, and the buyer can judge from there whether or not the breeder is reputable enough for their time and money. I kind of like that nice break from the uptight mammal breeders in comparison, I just hope that those who think it's okay to breed severely kinked snakes that had to be forcefed their entire lives are soon laughed out of the hobby.

I dont 100% percent agree with that. The definition of culling:
cull (kl)
tr.v. culled, cull·ing, culls
1. To pick out from others; select.
2. To gather; collect.
3. To remove rejected members or parts from (a herd, for example).
n.
[b]Something picked out from others, especially something rejected because of inferior quality.[b]
[Middle English cullen, from Old French cuillir, from Latin colligere; see collect1.]
culler n.
Everyone will have their own position on this. If the animal cannot, absolutely cannot thrive on its own and live a healthy life... Then yes, I think it is the responsibility of the breeder to do what Is necessary. I've never had to cull a ball baby and I hope I never need to, but as the breeder I am prepared to stand by my animals whether it be good or bad. If someone is disposing of healthy animals for population control or simply because they aren't what they want, thats pretty awful and no they shouldn't breed obviously. But if one has to put an animal down because it will never live a functional life I think that's a responsible thing to do. And again I'm not talking about a couple kinks, or born without eyes, or even not starting to eat on its own right off. I will personally take as much time to help a baby along if it's maintaining a functional life. I will give a little one away to a good home or keep them in my collection no matter what the "potential" cost of the animal could be. I have a few lifers in my collection as it is bc I feel like they were considered disposable by their previous owners and since I took them in they are my responsibility. They'll never breed and that's ok. It's not that they are unhealthy they are just part of my pet personal collection.
Anyways that's just my .03c.


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