What is the best example of....

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

The only standards are between the breeder and the buyer. People who consistently produce beautiful animals and have produced beautiful animals are known for that, but plenty of people make sales on what would universally be considered "less than desirable" animals.

Even with something so basic as pastels...NERD, Graziani, Ruppell, Bell, etc...all different animals, but what do you look for? The common sense answer is bright, vibrant yellow. However, plenty of people will forgive a bit of browning out for a crazy pattern, intense blacks or blushing, or something else.

My opinion on the matter is that balls haven't been selectively bred for long enough(or with enough care) to be able to sit down, discuss, and validate what sets "the standard". And with what really amounts to a 15 year breeding craze, and people breeding what they like, or just breeding with no regard for desirable traits, a standard is impossible to set. If you want a place to look for a nice example of each morph, there's World of Ball Pythons, but anything you'll find to hold to those examples will likely vary greatly.

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I agree with this. Short of culling, it is hard for a breeder to control the line once the less than ideal ones sell. And, I do not condone culling.

As far as WOBP, there are good examples there, and they are a good start. I wanted to see what the group here had to say about various morphs.

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Originally Posted by jinx667

The yellow is INSANE on that Pastel YB

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Thanks! Shes getting better and better with each shed. I got her from Justin Smith-Crimson Constrictors.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Who sets the standards? These morphs ate pretty much works of art. Whag one likes another wont. So it basically comes down to interpretation. Like jon said he likes a busy pattern and thats his standard over reduced. But others may like reduced so whos right by said standard? The breeders that care about what they are doing produce a certain look. This is their finger print on the industry that represents them and their animals so again i ask who sets the standard?

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There is definitely a standard. That's why some people would rather spend more money on a better example of a morph than one that isn't. If someone rather get a blushed out pastel than a bright yellow pastel with jet black blacks, then that's their opinion. That's they're personal choice. They will appeal to a much smaller group of individuals who prefer a blushed out pastel over a bright yellow one. I'm willing to bet that if you posted a poll of whether people liked bright yellows or insane blushing, the majority will vote for bright yellows. I see more people say they like high white sides on a spider than low white.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

So if in said group, 50% like a high white pied and 50% like a low white pied then how do you decide what the standard should be and where the bar should be set for a pied? If you want to get technical the first animal produced of each morph should be the standard of that morph. But i dont think you will ever find the standard animal of esch morph. Its all on prefrence and interpretation

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I agree level of white in a Pied or a Calico is personal preference. It is fine if you do not believe there are any standards to adhere to, we all have out opinions on the matter. I just think when it comes to some morphs, there are fairly universally undesirable traits, and when those animals are used to breed they pass that on to combos.

As for the first one produced being the standard, I do not prescribe to that. Line breeding has been shown to improve morphs over time. That improvement is in the eye of the beholder I guess.

Either way I thin this is good conversation to see where folks stand on the matter.

Your point that all standards are not standards has been clearly made.

I would still like to see some examples of what people believe to be superior examples of a morph, preferably with an explanation as to why.

Oh please guys dont get me wrong. Im just wondering who sets the standard. For example what single pastel are we supposed to hold up as the example the pastel? And what mojave? And on and on. If every albino doesnt look like the first ever found then are they not up to standards?

Here are a couple snakes that I consider to be great examples of their morph.

This is my male Black Pastel:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...3/100_4574.jpg
He has the classic squiggle marks and great color!


Here is my male Spinner:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...abaldec142.jpg
Love the lines going down the side with the white and salmon colors.

This is my holdback female Pastel:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...hevadec142.jpg
Love the amount of yellow and lots of blushing. She is getting better with each shed.

thanks for looking,

Dave

I am not saying there is ONE snake that is THE example. I just think that if the the question is asked and people answer honestly, over time a data set can be collected and consensus on a series of traits may be able to be ascertained. For many the data may wind up not statistically significant, but I really do not think that would be the case for all morphs.

That is also why I asked for folks to explain why they think the morph is a good example (or a bad one). Just putting up a pic is cool but really does not verbalize what one is looking for.

You keep asking who sets the standard, and my answer is that we all as a group set them.

I applaud what your trying to do. And sounds great on paper but nomatter how much data you collect you will never get a consensus on anything lol. Its not like we are a bunch of tire makers all making round black tires. But good luck. I do have to say that ak has a smokin pastel yb. Smokin

Interesting stuff. I'd really, personally like to see a set of ideals put into place.

I mean, even among dog breeding clubs, there are different standards, so it could be no different. For one club to say that (completely made-up) a rainbow ball python should have indigo, and for the other club to say no indigo, just blue and purple. It wouldn't be un-like any other club, is what I'm trying to say. :P

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Originally Posted by h00blah

There is definitely a standard. That's why some people would rather spend more money on a better example of a morph than one that isn't. If someone rather get a blushed out pastel than a bright yellow pastel with jet black blacks, then that's their opinion. That's they're personal choice. They will appeal to a much smaller group of individuals who prefer a blushed out pastel over a bright yellow one. I'm willing to bet that if you posted a poll of whether people liked bright yellows or insane blushing, the majority will vote for bright yellows. I see more people say they like high white sides on a spider than low white.

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For this.
I will use a mouse breeding example.
Variegated mice should be white, with small black 'pepper' like specks all over their entire body.

A poor example of the show standard, is a mouse which is mostly black, and will often have a white stripe on it's head.

I like the black ones with the white stripes! And I'm free to like them, and breed them, and sell them, etc. BUT, I would never show them because for every mouse club's standards, they would not do well.


It doesn't prevent people from breeding, owning, selling, and liking the non-standard version of the gene. It just sets a standard for THAT specific club. :)


Clubs pop up all the time for every fancy there is.
And even for each category (like normal BPs) there would be several sub categories for showing and competing (reduced pattern, medium pattern, busy pattern)