Breeder rep or looks?

I think there is a more obvious point no one has mentioned. The OP was basically wondering if there is a difference in quality/genetics from a big name versus a little name. Such that a beginner popping out a pretty snake is a fluke. Big breeders and small breeders alike all have to get their snakes from somewhere. So a beginner who pops out a beautiful snake may have breeder animals from a big name and that big name may have gotten their original breeders from someone smaller who actually originated the morph, ect.. So you could buy from a beginner a snake who has direct lineage to a big breeder. But the kicker is that hot looking snake made by the big guy could come from a hot looking snake he picked up off a little guy.

So, I think it all comes down to the quality of the animal sitting in front of you. Big breeder, small breeder or beginner breeder can all make smoking hot animals. I think there are a lot of wild card factors that have a big influence on the quality of animal produced such as quality of the parents, husbandry, overall health and quality of food. So I think I will echo what a lot of people have already said that if the breeder (bog or small) has a great looking animal and a good reputation, I would not hesitate to buy. Now if the breeder was new and had no reputation, I may still consider getting the animal if it was something I wanted.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Well I guess people without a big name don't stand a chance, I assume you never plan on selling hets? And I guess the rest of us who do but don't have a big name are just not as trustworthy?

Not to rain on your parade here but a little food for the thoughts there have been instances in the past when hets from big breeders were switched by unscrupulous employees.....just saying.

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I guess we didn't see the "IMO" ? I can't sell a het for nothing is what I'm learning. I'm not complaining I can care less because there's always folk that will take a ball python normal as pets even if I don't put het on it. I'm just saying if I cough up $2000 for a het super stripe with a small breeder and he/she ends up not being anything here's a list of things that can happen:

Well it's in ur collection and I don't want any germs or any health problems to come back to my collection

I don't remember the purchase even though you have paper work

I can't refund u

I can't give u an animal of similar value

Pretty much give you the run around. I'm not saying no one has a chance at all but a rep will play a good part. A person that cares would not do anything of the things that I stated above, they would sincerely apologize and accommodate some way some how for your trouble. So over all why would I want to worry about the animal I'm purchasing? I would rather be stress free IMO.

Here's a question about that one amazing snake that pops out. When a simply stunning perfect amazing ball pops out from 2 average looking parents who's lineage is pretty much average what are the chances that he or she will throw exceptional quality offspring or revert back to offspring more consistent off his lineage? I have had competition dogs,show and weightpull and usually when an awesome dog would come out of nowhere from an unknown or average line that stud would usually never come close to replicating himself unlike the great ones from known proven bloodlines. I currently have racing pigeons and its pretty much the same there. Now of course their are always exceptions that's how new lines and bloodlines are formed but its not the norm. Are snakes like this or is it different with them?

Being from a "Big name breeder" does not guarantee top quality genetics. Being from a "No name breeder" does not guarantee lesser quality genetics. When you buy, you should factor in what "you" think is the best looking example as well as the possible reputation that the breeder may have.

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Originally Posted by The Mad Baller

Here's a question about that one amazing snake that pops out. When a simply stunning perfect amazing ball pops out from 2 average looking parents who's lineage is pretty much average what are the chances that he or she will throw exceptional quality offspring or revert back to offspring more consistent off his lineage? I have had competition dogs,show and weightpull and usually when an awesome dog would come out of nowhere from an unknown or average line that stud would usually never come close to replicating himself unlike the great ones from known proven bloodlines. I currently have racing pigeons and its pretty much the same there. Now of course their are always exceptions that's how new lines and bloodlines are formed but its not the norm. Are snakes like this or is it different with them?

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This is pretty much exactly what I was trying to say....

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Being from a "Big name breeder" does not guarantee top quality genetics. Being from a "No name breeder" does not guarantee lesser quality genetics. When you buy, you should factor in what "you" think is the best looking example as well as the possible reputation that the breeder may have.

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So you should take both into account then?

Agreed. With Hets, I go with breeders with good rep and paperwork. For visuals, as long as price is fair, snake looks good, healthy, eats good, and mite free then i dont really care who its from. A small local breeder that only hatches out a few animals a year can still produce great animals.

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Originally Posted by Brion99

ALOT more expensive that way. I want to eventually get into Hypos and Axanthics and the difference going het is huge....though if you can pull it off thats at least a year ahead you'd be, OTOH, puttin that money in hets and you'd have a stockpile of your own Pieds and Albinos after one season.....my 2c

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True, but I'm not ever planning on having racks and racks of snakes :D I'd like to keep my breeding group small, and I don't want to invest in animals I will end up having to sell or rehome because the don't fit into my breeding plan anymore as I have 'better' versions, so for males especially I don't want to get something that's just a single gene or het, unless it's outstanding and will always be useful. :O I want to make nice multi gene snakes, but I don't want to end up either getting rid of my pets I have grown attached to when I need room--or have 500+ breeder snakes through keeping them all and upgrading a lot! I'll for sure add new ones, but not to the point where I start to run out of room. I'll be strictly small time :]

I might invest in a few het females of the recessive gene in order to just produce a lot more animals, but I DO want at least one recessive visualxvisual pair if I do breed with any hets, so I can be more sure I produce at least a few visuals that can help my reputation as a real breeder. :) And any hetxhet will probably also have a visual codominant morph added on, so they aren't all straight hets. Pastel het pieds or lesser het pieds might be nicer than just producing all het pieds. I don't want to make possible hets if I can help it though!

I know it's going to be expensive, but I'd rather invest in the beginning in regards to the recessives at least! :D


As far as strong lines go...When I look into snakes, I like to ask for pictures of the parents if the snake isn't from a line(aka NERD lemon pastel vs. a really gorgeous regular pastel), and I would especially love to see images of the snake's parents as hatchlings and as adults, because I want to get an example of what the snake will look like as an adult. If I see a gorgeous snake who's parents were gorgeous in the same way as babies--but turned into ugly ugly adults, I..probably won't buy the snake! If I see a snake who's parents looked the same as it as hatchlings and they grew into AMAZING adults, than yes, I'll be more likely to get that one!
So at least in that case, I'll know the grandparents and parents of the snakes I produce are beautiful, and that's one step in the right direction to having a strong line of good genetics, even if the snake isn't from someone like NERD who's worked with the same line for generations of snakes :D Then, the line is in your hands. Take the baby snake you produce and breed it with a beautiful mate who also has beautiful parents of the 'look' you want, and now you are into the fourth generation of awesome snakes. Keep all these photos of the parents, grandparents, great grandparents, siblings, their kids, etc. and you can show that you have a top notch line that just makes awesome animals all the time! :D It's a lot of work, but hey, it gets you a strong line of good genes to work with after a while, and it CAN all start with buying from small time breeders!

As Sean Bradley of EbN has always preached "examine the snake, not the deal".

I've built my collection by being very picky about the looks of my animals, because I've always wanted to selectively breed and improve on stock, not just bang out animals for the sake of banging them out.

I have a very set look that "I" want in my breeders. So much so that it was almost 2 years before I picked up a cinnamon that met my critera and a year and half before I picked up a lesser that met my criteria.

When I find the animal that I want, I then will vett the seller by checking the BOI if I'm not already familiar with them. Once that checks out, I move forward.

I have animals from small breeders, medium breeders and large breeders.

Kevin at NERD happens to be a friend of mine. But I have one animal from him. Will I buy more in the future? Most likely. But will it be BECAUSE it comes from Kev? Nope, it will be because he has something that I want, that meets my personal criteria in the looks department.

Whats you guys opinion on this female Fire, strictly as breeder? IOW, would you use this base as your Fire line? She looks very clean, and compared to a lot of others I've seen pretty nice. Not quite the pattern I like but that seems to be in males I've seen (saw a recent pair of siblings and the male was exactly what I want but the female had a pattern more like this, just much uglier). This snake is not about what I like, it's what will make great offspring (and being the newb I am I'd appreciate the help)

http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/...er-fire006.jpghttp://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/...er-fire007.jpghttp://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/...er-fire010.jpg


Sorry for the small pics but I can't for the life of me figure out how to post the thumbnails...been at it for an hour and it's getting late (as if I don't feel dumb enough already...ugh)