Let's Clear Some Stuff Up About IBD

Points taken. :)

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

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Mike:

Courtney (americanwmn) on RTB has corresponded with Dr. J also. When I get to work on Monday I can send you copies of my correspondence with him. Courtney would probably do the same if you asked her.

I think that you will find that Dr. Jacobson doesn't have answers to a lot of our questions because the answers aren't yet known.

Once you see what he can and can't answer, and compare it to the context of some of what we have often accepted as absolute and unshakeable truths, you'll see what I mean.

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Great! anything you can send me on this topic would be appreciated! Its unfortunate that so many answers are unknown. Hopefully Dr. Jacobson can unlock some of the mysteries within the next few years.

If you get any updated info from Dr. Jacobson or anybody else researching and studying IBD id be more than glad to hear about it, just send me a PM anytime :)

Thanks for spreading some light on this disease :gj:

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Originally Posted by JLC

Points taken. :)

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:grouphug:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

:grouphug:

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eeeewwwwww

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Originally Posted by wilomn

eeeewwwwww

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There's room for more than one in that group hug..........

I'm just taking a guess here, but it may be that IBD is like another retrovirus, HIV, in that there is not just one "strain."

Common knowledge used to be that once you turned up HIV positive, your days were numbered and that the number wasn't a large one. Now that we're a few years into recognizing HIV, strains that do not appear to cause the disease have been discovered. link We're also finding out that some folks are genetically resistant to HIV. link

I think that a lot of the conflicting information we hear about IBD is not that some folks don't know what the heck they're talking about but that they are possibly seeing the effects of different strains of IBD and how they affect animals with different inherent genetic resistances or predispositions.

Since IBD hasn't had the research money spent on it that HIV has, we're not getting a good overall view of what the true nature of the beast is. We do know that it can kill. We see that it can kill quickly in some cases; we see that in some other cases it has apparantly lain dormant for many years before becoming symptomatic, and we see indications that in some others it might not be deadly at all.

My hunch is that many different people are getting a good picture of what IBD does and does not do in how a particularly strain they have encountered affects the particular animals they have dealt with. It's kind of like the way HIV was perceived when it was first recognized. We "knew" what it did, or we thought we did. Now we know that HIV can do many things, or in some cases, it doesn't do anything at all. At this point I don't discount anyone's experiences with IBD. I just try to remind myself that whatever their experience is that it's not likely to be universal. Mine, if I do have one, might be wildly different from the next guy's and that doesn't make either of us an idiot.

My $0.02 worth. I've only ever seen one strongly suspected case of IBD in person but I have seen many cases of AIDS as a nurse and I know that the clinical picture with that retrovirus differs wildly from case to case. Viruses "like" to mutate--it's one reason that they are so difficult to pin down. Smallpox can kill, it can be survived, and it can occur undetected. Tricky things, viruses. We can't even all agree if they're alive or not.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

:grouphug:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

eeeewwwwww

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

There's room for more than one in that group hug..........

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Wes is too prickly to admit he really wants in... :P

:D

Good post. IBD gets tossed around WAAAYYYYY too often...hopefully this calms some people's fears.

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Originally Posted by Redneck_Crow

I'm just taking a guess here, but it may be that IBD is like another retrovirus, HIV, in that there is not just one "strain."

Common knowledge used to be that once you turned up HIV positive, your days were numbered and that the number wasn't a large one. Now that we're a few years into recognizing HIV, strains that do not appear to cause the disease have been discovered. link We're also finding out that some folks are genetically resistant to HIV. link

I think that a lot of the conflicting information we hear about IBD is not that some folks don't know what the heck they're talking about but that they are possibly seeing the effects of different strains of IBD and how they affect animals with different inherent genetic resistances or predispositions.

Since IBD hasn't had the research money spent on it that HIV has, we're not getting a good overall view of what the true nature of the beast is. We do know that it can kill. We see that it can kill quickly in some cases; we see that in some other cases it has apparantly lain dormant for many years before becoming symptomatic, and we see indications that in some others it might not be deadly at all.

My hunch is that many different people are getting a good picture of what IBD does and does not do in how a particularly strain they have encountered affects the particular animals they have dealt with. It's kind of like the way HIV was perceived when it was first recognized. We "knew" what it did, or we thought we did. Now we know that HIV can do many things, or in some cases, it doesn't do anything at all. At this point I don't discount anyone's experiences with IBD. I just try to remind myself that whatever their experience is that it's not likely to be universal. Mine, if I do have one, might be wildly different from the next guy's and that doesn't make either of us an idiot.

My $0.02 worth. I've only ever seen one strongly suspected case of IBD in person but I have seen many cases of AIDS as a nurse and I know that the clinical picture with that retrovirus differs wildly from case to case. Viruses "like" to mutate--it's one reason that they are so difficult to pin down. Smallpox can kill, it can be survived, and it can occur undetected. Tricky things, viruses. We can't even all agree if they're alive or not.

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To some extent I agree with you, however in the case of IBD, a lot of the misconceptions have been deliberately spread.

If you look at the research from a decade ago they were noticing that seemingly healthy snakes submitted for research purposes tested positive for the disease. So to make a long story short, the information that there was a large number of animals out there carrying the disease (but never showing any symptoms) was out there.

What ended up happening was that a few websites parsed information from these papers and these ended up making the rounds on the forums. The scarier aspects of the disease were highlighted and some of the subtle points were ignored.

Then you had a second contingent (which the researchers will gladly talk to you about) of flat-earthers who swore up and down that IBD did not exist.

For years the boid community has done little to assist in finding a cure. In some aspects, because of their reflexive denials and poo-pooing the disease, they have only assisted in prolonging it's effect in this community.

Your analogy to AIDS is spot on and in my discussions with people dealing with IBD, that comparison inevitably comes up.

This retrovirus seems to "bloom" in asymptomatic animals when they become stressed or are afflicted with something that lowers their immune system. It was theorized at the time that my snake that became symptomatic may have been stressed by a change or surroundings. The change from asymptomatic to symptomatic occurred when the animal was moved from a cage to a rack.

What I do know is that in the many years I've been keeping snakes, I've dealt with countless RI's, bacterial infections, viral infections, protozoal infections, etc. etc. It comes with the territory of importing and breeding snakes.

In all those years I have seen quite a few snakes exhibit neurological symptoms, however none of them from snakes with IBD.

So while we sit here and dissect IBD and discuss it's seriousness and how it may be present in healthy snakes, it's important to stress that the odds of people on this forum having to deal with it are slim. While we should all be concerned, we should not be worried. And while we should all be vigilant, we should not do so to the point of being paranoid or inducing fear into people who come here seeking advice.

I had a woma python who for about two weeks exhibited classic CNS symptoms - corkscrewing, holding his head at weird angles, sleeping with his head inverted and acting really weird. If I had posted a video of him on here everyone would have screamed "IBD!".

Fearing the worst, I took him into my vet. Visions of another bout of dealing with costly biopsies and the like swam through my head.

My vet upon examining him, found that one of his lacrimal ducts was blocked at the pressure of it was literally driving him nuts.

If your snake is acting funny, take it to a vet.

If someone comes on this forum claiming their snake is acting funny - recommend they go to a vet.

Skip can I get in on the group hug too. I'll give you that the barkers info on ibd is old and out of date. In the vague hope to find more information accurate information out I wrote Dr. E Jacobsen a short email here is that email and his response that I got remarkably quickly.

Dr. Jacobson,

I have read a small amount of your work with IBD and have a simple question and I hope that you can take the time to answer if for me.

I am concerned with Royal Pythons (Python Regius) has there been evidence of them caring IBD for long periods of time with out showing symptoms? Is it correct that in this smaller species IBD typically attacks the Central nervous system quickly, and results in quick (months not years) appearance of associated symptoms, and death?

If there is research specifically relating to Python Regius, would you have a reference that you could provide to me?

Most humbly,
Alexander *edit name only*

Reply,


1. I am concerned with Royal Pythons (Python Regius) has there been evidence of them caring IBD for long periods of time with out showing symptoms?

I am not aware of any information about this,


2. Is it correct that in this smaller species IBD typically attacks the Central nervous system quickly, and results in quick (months not years) appearance of associated symptoms, and death?

Not that I am aware of.

3. If there is research specifically relating to Python Regius, would you have a reference that you could provide to me?

I do not know anyone who is focused on studying IBD in ball pythons.

EJacobson

So as far as Royals are concerned there is no information I replied back to Dr. Jacobson and thanked him for his reply and asked what is the best way to help fund his project. I'll post that once that answer arrives. It is very clear there is very little information on this subject and way more research is needed. I'd suggest that in the void to accept that pythonidae and Boiade be treated as the same or similar in response. As there is no other information at this time.

I read in passing that a lab in great briton has developed a fecal screen that they claim able to detect IBD in light of a possible dormancy which I understood to apply only to Boiade, I feel that testing is a priority. Has anyone heard this as well ? If I recall correctly they offered a international mail based system.