Feeding Mice VS Rats

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Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

Actually I don't have very many adult BP's. Just adult Retics, adult Burns, adult Anacondas, and adult Boas.

Obviously different animals but let's say for example my biggest retic is 35lbs and over 12' long. Going by the 10% rule she would only be taking 3.5lb rabbits. Way under sized for her. If I let her she would eat two-three 6-7lb rabbits.

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And BP are not Boas or Retics or even Blood or Carpet for that matter. :gj:, you can't compare how you feed one species with how to feed another species.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

And BP are not Boas or Retics or even Blood or Carpet for that matter. :gj:, you can't compare how you feed one species with how to feed another species.

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You are correct. BP'S are not Boas or Retics or even Blood or Carpets :gj:

I guess we can just agree to disagree on the 10% rule.

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Rats & mice DO have different nutritional values, no question about it. But I've always been of the opinion that the differences are small enough it is not likely to matter to a ball python. And, even if one is slightly more optimal than the other, I'm aware of no scientific studies that tell us what optimal nutrition for a BP is, so how would we know if rats or mice are better? For example, rats have a higher % fat than mice, but is more fat good for a ball python? Or bad?

Rats might make them grow faster, although most of the anecdotal evidence I've seen in that direction is cases where the rat-fed BPs were also getting more food overall, so even that is suspect. But, I also don't think we have a good idea of how fast growth should be to be optimal for their long-term health.

As far as the 10% rule, or any similar rule...it seems to me that however much you are feeding a snake, you'd want to feed them more in comparison to their body weight when they are young and growing rapidly than you would when they are adults. So, for example, if you feed them 10% as hatchlings, then you might feed them only 5% as adults. Or, if you feed them 10% as adults, you might feed them 15% as hatchlings. Or maybe you feed them the same % of their body weight their entire lives, but you feed them more frequently when they are young and less frequently when they are adults. I'm really curious, Expensive Hobby, why you think the opposite is true?

One thing that is for sure true is it is faster and easier to feed a BP a single rat than multiple mice. And, every once in a while you'll get a snake that isn't fond of taking a 2nd prey item in one meal, and so there would be a significant advantage to that particular snake to eating rats.

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Originally Posted by kc261

Rats & mice DO have different nutritional values, no question about it. But I've always been of the opinion that the differences are small enough it is not likely to matter to a ball python. And, even if one is slightly more optimal than the other, I'm aware of no scientific studies that tell us what optimal nutrition for a BP is, so how would we know if rats or mice are better? For example, rats have a higher % fat than mice, but is more fat good for a ball python? Or bad?

Rats might make them grow faster, although most of the anecdotal evidence I've seen in that direction is cases where the rat-fed BPs were also getting more food overall, so even that is suspect. But, I also don't think we have a good idea of how fast growth should be to be optimal for their long-term health.

As far as the 10% rule, or any similar rule...it seems to me that however much you are feeding a snake, you'd want to feed them more in comparison to their body weight when they are young and growing rapidly than you would when they are adults. So, for example, if you feed them 10% as hatchlings, then you might feed them only 5% as adults. Or, if you feed them 10% as adults, you might feed them 15% as hatchlings. Or maybe you feed them the same % of their body weight their entire lives, but you feed them more frequently when they are young and less frequently when they are adults. I'm really curious, Expensive Hobby, why you think the opposite is true?

One thing that is for sure true is it is faster and easier to feed a BP a single rat than multiple mice. And, every once in a while you'll get a snake that isn't fond of taking a 2nd prey item in one meal, and so there would be a significant advantage to that particular snake to eating rats.

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You nailed it in the frequency of feeding comment. I believe that younger snakes do need more nutrition than their adult counterparts, but they achieve it through more frequent and smaller meals. While I believe adults benefit from a larger meal each feeding based on the percentage of their body weight but offered less frequently.

Another thing that people seem to skip right over in these debates on the 10% rule, is sure a hatchling is growing quicker than an adult, so the need for more nutrition is evident, however a hatchling doesn't have the type of demand that a larger snake has. Example? An adult snake has to move more mass. And adult snake has breeding to think about. An adult snake has growing to do in its own right, whilst it goes through physiological changes as it becomes a sexually mature animal. Ovulation, egg production, mating and copulation, months on end without food. All nutrituonal demands that hatchlings don't have to deal with.

That is why I believe a larger meal per body weight percentage is important for adult animals. Getting longer and heavier aren't the only things going on here. Gotta think outside the box.

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Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

Just to address the elephant in the room. A BP that is 1500g should be taking prey items much larger than 150g. That is following the 10% rule, which is only applicable to hatchlings. I have balls that are only 200g taking small rats. Most people seem to underfeed their BP's.

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My male ball python weighs 260 g and easily takes weaned rates of 60- 70 g. Compared to my two girls that are fed a mouse of 40g he is growing much quicker than the other.

Going to switch them to rats ASAP.


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Originally Posted by Gouzman

My male ball python weighs 260 g and easily takes weaned rates of 60- 70 g. Compared to my two girls that are fed a mouse of 40g he is growing much quicker than the other.

Going to switch them to rats ASAP.


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Yes quick growth isn't bad. A lot of people seem to associate quick growth, with the kind of growth you see with power feeding. They just aren't the same thing. I've seen a segment where Brian from BHB tested the theory of meal size, and frequency affecting growth rates in snakes, and he said hands down larger meals offer better growth rates. As long as you don't over do it, there is nothing wrong with a snake growing to its potential, as long as it doesn't become obese in the process. Healthy weight gain and obesity are obviously two very different things.

Most of my snakes will gladly accept much more than I feed, and I still feed pretty heavy. In my experience that goes to show that feeding a little bit larger than the 10% rule can be beneficial. But i will also not power feed. I want healthy growth rates. No pin heads in my collection. :)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

Yes quick growth isn't bad. A lot of people seem to associate quick growth, with the kind of growth you see with power feeding. They just aren't the same thing. I've seen a segment where Brian from BHB tested the theory of meal size, and frequency affecting growth rates in snakes, and he said hands down larger meals offer better growth rates. As long as you don't over do it, there is nothing wrong with a snake growing to its potential, as long as it doesn't become obese in the process. Healthy weight gain and obesity are obviously two very different things.

Most of my snakes will gladly accept much more than I feed, and I still feed pretty heavy. In my experience that goes to show that feeding a little bit larger than the 10% rule can be beneficial. But i will also not power feed. I want healthy growth rates. No pin heads in my collection. :)

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I agree 100%. I was nervous at first to switch him from mice to weaned rats as I did not want him to regurge, so I made sure that he got the rat down and I increased the temp in his enclosure by a degree or two, didn't disturb him for four days after eating (except changing water) and only feed him every seven days. He is always hungry come feeding day.

I think the 10% rule is a great indicator to those that aren't sure of how much to feed, but if your snake is happy with what you feed then it's ok I suppose.

He doesn't display any signs of obesity and is growing really well.

I swear by feeding rats compared to mice based on the results I have seen, but whatever works for the individual keeper is what's best for them I suppose.

Here is a pic of my little guy cuddling a rat

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/28/uvyza2en.jpg


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Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

A BP that is 1500g should be taking prey items much larger than 150g.

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That statement is wacked...

It's more of a guideline than rule folks. I've never weighed a prey item in my life, I learned from experience what worked best with my specific animals. Some weeks I'll give an animal 2 smaller meals, one larger meal, or even skip them altogether - I focus more on build and muscle tone than blindly following a set feeding regimen.

It is a good starting point though when you're trying to explain to someone, using only words and text mind you, what prey size they should be offering their snake. With so many other factors involved: ambient temperature, hot spot, age, growth, metabolism, stress levels, parasites, etc - it's virtually impossible to tell someone, with accuracy, what they should be feeding their snake.

I reckon the 10% "idea" came along as a safe guideline to help newbies get some experience without putting their animals in any undue risk. Then they can post up pictures and we can say, "maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less, perfecto - keep it up."

My advice is to learn what your specific species of snake looks like in the wild. I'm talking an average, healthy individual. Don't aim for some emaciated animal that has obviously fallen on tough times or a glutton who has broken into a hen house and just eaten 12 chickens - those aren't good examples of averages.. Find your healthy average and feed to achieve that look in your captives.

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Originally Posted by sho220

That statement is wacked...

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And it is "wacked" for what reason?

150g-265g is considered a "large" rat. You don't have any beepers on large rats? And lest us not forget that weight is not directly proportionate to prey size either.

You can have 2 rats that weigh exactly 150g and one can be physically much larger than the other. That's why I don't feed primarily based on weight. The snakes get the correct sized prey items by me looking at them, and choosing what physically is the best "fit."

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