What is every base morph and which lay on the same allele?

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

I tend to disagree with having the Mystic and the Phantom listed in the BEL complex. Is there a supper Platty(Daddy)? Platty Daddy is not the same as Lessor.
To my knowledge they do not make a BEL when bred together to create a Homo form.

Spector/Whirlwind are the same morph.
Goblin/Yellow Belly and I think Orange Belly are the same morph


Het Red/ Green Pastel/ Lace Back Back are the same morph

Pinstripe/Spider/Woma are Dominant morphs. Have never seen proof of a Homo of either one.

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Phantom and mystic are apart of the BEL complex... breed a mystic to a mojo, you get a mystic potion, breed that to a normal, you get mojo or mystics, no normals or other potions, any 2 morphs in that group work that way. I just call it the BEL complex because thats what it seems to be called, not all homozygous forms in that group are BEL's, but alot of them are. platty is a lesser or butter + daddy gene.

goblin and yellow belly im pretty sure are the same morph, but orange belly is the key to graphite.

hmm looking up stuff i never saw anything about lace being apart of that complex, nor could i find any green pastel/het red,red axanthics, to prove they are part of the same complex, but ill look into it. thx

bhb has a proven homozygous pin, also spider im trying to figure out exactly how to calculate it, spider x spider = what % spider/ what % normal. i mean depending on all the theories it could be 75%/25%, 50%/50%, or 33%/66%... so yea.

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Originally Posted by NewParadigms

I'm still rather new to this, but I was curious, in the "Other Base Morphs" list is this just a list of morphs with unknown categorization or is that a separate category? I saw you had pastel and spotnose on there, which are both co-dominant? Perhaps I'm missing the boat entirely.

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other base morphs are morphs that are not part of a complex or dominate genes. Recessive and Co-dom genes are calculated exactly the same way. This list is just being put into a database, I got make rules for the complex and side notes for alot of the dominate stuff.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

then spider apparently doesn't have a homozygous form, so how do you calculate that? spider x spider = 75%/25% or 50%/50% or 33%/66%? hmmm, mayb if you come up with a homozygous spider I should just have a separate link to info on the super spider debate lol

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Actually I think that's not a bad idea, ha ha. It hasn't been definitively proven that the gene is homozygous lethal; it could well be, but it could also just be that nobody has come forward with a homozygous spider yet, since I don't think a huge number of spider x spider breedings have been done ...


As far as the leopard, I know there are a few good threads about it on here, but it's still confusing as heck ... Seems to be linked to the pied gene and show up only in het pieds, I think :confused:

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

Actually I think that's not a bad idea, ha ha. It hasn't been definitively proven that the gene is homozygous lethal; it could well be, but it could also just be that nobody has come forward with a homozygous spider yet, since I don't think a huge number of spider x spider breedings have been done ...


As far as the leopard, I know there are a few good threads about it on here, but it's still confusing as heck ... Seems to be linked to the pied gene and show up only in het pieds, I think :confused:

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i realize i spelled dominant, dominate lol guess i was tired yesterday.

i don't believe there is a reason to believe its lethal, i think it just not being a simple dominant gene is more likely. I think i will have it calculate it as a normal dominant gene and have some side notes for it. the unproven dominant gene will also need side notes as a homozygous form of them isn't proven yet either.

yea im totally confused on the leopard, i was hoping someone could spell it out for me lol

This is the most I've ever seen it spelled out on the leopards (3rd post down):

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...hlight=leopard

... Unfortunately, that isn't very clear at all :(

As far as the "super spider" debate goes, I think the reasoning is that, since there does not appear to be a visually distinct "super" form, it's either got to be simple dominant and nobody's produced or come out with a homozygous spider yet, or else there's something about the homozygous spider that's incompatible with life. Otherwise we would've seen something by now ...

I think though that it can be tough to prove homozygous lethal conditions (unless the baby dies after birth, like the white foals in Lethal White Overo Syndrome in horses, or late enough term to have an abortus with an obvious phenotype). I know that in chinchillas, there are two mutations that are said to be homozygous lethal (black velvet and mosaic) based on the fact that no homozygous BV or mosaic has ever been produced. However, despite the fact that they have been around and bred for a few decades now, in fairly large numbers, nobody's definitively "proven" the homozygous lethal condition. It is suspected that the babies die in utero and are resorbed, or else maybe aborted and consumed by the mama before they can ever be discovered. However, I know of at least two breeders who routinely breed mosaic x mosaic and have never reported obvious problems (though no homozygotes either).

So, I guess it's kind of a default suggestion when we can't find proof of a homozygote, visual or not.

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

This is the most I've ever seen it spelled out on the leopards (3rd post down):

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...hlight=leopard

... Unfortunately, that isn't very clear at all :(

As far as the "super spider" debate goes, I think the reasoning is that, since there does not appear to be a visually distinct "super" form, it's either got to be simple dominant and nobody's produced or come out with a homozygous spider yet, or else there's something about the homozygous spider that's incompatible with life. Otherwise we would've seen something by now ...

I think though that it can be tough to prove homozygous lethal conditions (unless the baby dies after birth, like the white foals in Lethal White Overo Syndrome in horses, or late enough term to have an abortus with an obvious phenotype). I know that in chinchillas, there are two mutations that are said to be homozygous lethal (black velvet and mosaic) based on the fact that no homozygous BV or mosaic has ever been produced. However, despite the fact that they have been around and bred for a few decades now, in fairly large numbers, nobody's definitively "proven" the homozygous lethal condition. It is suspected that the babies die in utero and are resorbed, or else maybe aborted and consumed by the mama before they can ever be discovered. However, I know of at least two breeders who routinely breed mosaic x mosaic and have never reported obvious problems (though no homozygotes either).

So, I guess it's kind of a default suggestion when we can't find proof of a homozygote, visual or not.

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well that link does help, guess we just need to wait for more info.

the spider can still be a complicated gene, doesn't mean its lethal at all. and you could prove it by seeing what goes on inside the female from spider x spider breedings, do 25% of follicles on average not develop? might shed some light. but its not important enough to anyone to really find out.

just got an email back from pro exotics, the lemonback is not proven compatible with the fire or sulfur yet. so that will have to go on the watch list

The woma has a homozygous form, the pearl which hasn't lived.
Know where I can find pics of the homo pinstripe?

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Originally Posted by mpenny

The woma has a homozygous form, the pearl which hasn't lived.
Know where I can find pics of the homo pinstripe?

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According to Kevin the pearl is produced with the hidden gene woma ;)
Check out the NERD youtube interviews.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79Tg4412cS0

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Originally Posted by mpenny

The woma has a homozygous form, the pearl which hasn't lived.
Know where I can find pics of the homo pinstripe?

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yea the hidden gene woma's homozygous form is the pearl, plain womas have not had a proven homozygous form yet as far as I know. You might as well consider them separate genes.

the homozygous pin just look like a normal pinstripe, just when you breed it every baby is a pin.