Culling Healthy Animals

Sorry for the abscence, but sometimes it's good to let a thread develop a little on it's own so that it doesn't turn into a parsing match. besides...weekends are for downtime.

This discussion was started 3 years ago at another forum ,which I now own, but didn't found. The interesting thing in the Carpet Python hobby right now is there are several new morphs. The problem with morphs, is that peole want to combine them, and in carpet pythons...they occure in different subspecies: Here is an example

Jaguar: Coastal
Zebra: Jungle
Granite: Irian Jaya
Caramel: Coastal
Tiger: Coastal
Striped: Bredli
Albino: Darwin
Axanthic: Coastal
I am sure i am forgeting 1 or two, but you get the idea.

Althought these are all carpet pythons...they are all distinct subspecies (although the arguement can, and has been made, that thay should not be, as they are not distinct enough, with the exception of Bredli)

So the problem arises when you combine these animals, you have "normal" appearing offsping as well. Spining these off to the public, labels correectly or not, muddies the gene pool for those looking for "pure" animals.

Hence, what happens is, later in their lives if they live that long, you see big, brown, obvious hybrid carpet pythons that are very, very hard to find homes for.

This is a problem that is almost unique to Carpets right now, as the morph craze has bled over into carpet pythons. As a hobbiest who see's the value on both sides (I really do enjoy crossing morphs to see what will be created) I have to spin off hybrid or "Mutt" offspring ass well. This means I am part of the problem of muddying up the gene pool when i create these. I used to just sell them off as what they were, but have learned personally, that this just doesn't work, as it's REALLY bad for the captive gene pool of carpets (which is already really messed up BTW) because many are just sold as a "jungle" or a "coastal" when they want to resell them, which is inaccurate...and sucks if you are a purist.

As we spin off lots of these siblings (remember, carpets can have up to 40 eggs per clutch, depending on the subspecies) they can do lots of damage, and may, if not most of them will have lives that will end badly (again, IMHO).

I tried to adapt this arguement for ball pythons since this is a Ball Python forum. You guys have no problems with hybridization, but you produce a TON of normals. I wondered if any of you thought along the lines that I do, that it may be better to just cull some of your offpsring. Resoundingly with you guys, that answer is no, but you respect my choice to do what I want as an idividual. No matter how well I tried to play devil's advocate. 8-) I suspect that many of you are pet owners, and have not yet crossed into the realm of breeding lots of babies, but when you do, it does create its own set of ethical challenges, and I thought it would be interesting to hear what you all thought. I have bee challenged by the position that I put myself in, and I am trying my best to do what I feel is right for my animals and my hobby daily.

Thank you all for allowing this discussion, and thanks to those of you who have been respectful in your questions and answers. All posts like this are intended for is to discuss things that may, or may not, be completely popular with everyone, and see what sorts of ideas can come from it, and see if any solutions can be suggested, if anyone has one?

Lastly, I want to say that, I am in the minority of Carpet People. Like most of you, most of the carpet python community, even if they agree that we have a problem, don't have the heart to cull a healthy animal, even if it's a hybrid. In truth, I don't either, which is why I started to feed them to something else. It's a more comgfortable solution to me than just freezing them, and just makes it "acceptable" to me on some level, though I don't like it.

Anyway thanks again for the input guys, and thanks forum Admins for allowing the discussion. It's nearly taboo on my own forums as well, but one that every year or so comes up, and always ends with an extremely interesting discussion. I am not one to block free speech on a topic just because it's uncomfotable.

I'll go back to lurking now.

S~

Sure, large and small breeders, will produce alot of normals. What better way to build up future clientele, then to nurture your normals (the same,exact way that you'd nutrure and feed your morphs) and sell them to entry-level hobbyists? Instead of just wasting the snakes and feeding them off.

If you view them as expendible commodities in an over-flooded market, then to me, you should not breed them!

Also, to me,culling-off "ugly normals" is one step away from neglecting them. If you have some pretty morphs,and the normals will die anyway, how hard is it to rationalize the "well, then I won't feed the normals as much.. they're just going to the canners anyway." I don't believe that I am far off-base with this one..

Seems like, if someone wants to cull.. maybe they're too lazy or stingy to care for a snake until it can be found a good home. To me, everyone who breeds, has a responsibility to keep their offspring until it can be sold or adopted out into a great home. Just my thoughts on it; no one has to agree.

Wow!

Ok, let's see:

Your argument held no water
You were soundly beaten in the "debate"
You had your bare bottom smacked like a petulent youngster

Now, exit stage left. Shocking...

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It's nearly taboo on my own forums as well, but one that every year or so comes up, and always ends with an extremely interesting discussion. I a not one to block free speech on a topic just because it's uncomfotable

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So it's ok for YOU to come here and perpetuate a 20+ page post, yet you not only lock, but erase my posting leading the Morelia crowd to YOUR discussion here???? What the hell Shawn? I wish there was a [ B.S. ] insert quote here [ /B.S ] option.

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

obvious hybrid carpet pythons that are very, very hard to find homes for.

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Well how about, try harder, breed less, or don't breed at all? Because "it's too hard to find them good homes" shouldn't be an excuse for killing anything.

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

As a hobbiest who see's the value on both sides (I really do enjoy crossing morphs to see what will be created) I HAVE TO spin off hybrid or "Mutt" offspring ass well. This means I am part of the problem of muddying up the gene pool when i create these.

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That's not true. You don't "HAVE TO" do it. You CHOOSE TO and then you CHOOSE TO kill the less desirable offspring. There are alternatives ... you could only work with homozygous x homozygous pairings (or double/triple homozygous) ... if they don't exist yet, wait. You make it sound like there is no other option than to kill these animals and that is a lie. It's your choice, and try as you will, it is not justified.

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Resoundingly with you guys, that answer is no, but you respect my choice to do what I want as an idividual.

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Are we reading the same thread? You lost me with the whole "respect" part.

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

I am trying my best to do what I feel is right for my animals

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By KILLING them?

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Lastly, I want to say that, I am in the minority of Carpet People.

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Thank god.

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Like most of you, most of the carpet python community, even if they agree that we have a problem, don't have the heart to cull a healthy animal, even if it's a hybrid. In truth, I don't either, which is why I started to feed them to something else. It's a more comgfortable solution to me than just freezing them, and just makes it "acceptable" to me on some level, though I don't like it.

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For someone that doesn't "like it", you sure have come up with a whole lot of justification to continue to do it ... so obviously, you don't "not like it" enough to think about stopping or focusing your energy on solutions that don't involve the killing of healthy animals.

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Here is an example

Jaguar: Coastal
Zebra: Jungle
Granite: Irian Jaya
Caramel: Coastal
Tiger: Coastal
Striped: Bredli
Albino: Darwin
Axanthic: Coastal

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I'll give you an A+ for creating this thread here to market your business and forum though, even if I am completely disgusted by your ethics, you're marketing is pretty clever albeit completely transparent.

Blessings,

-adam

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Originally Posted by SRX

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

It's nearly taboo on my own forums as well, but one that every year or so comes up, and always ends with an extremely interesting discussion. I a not one to block free speech on a topic just because it's uncomfotable

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So it's ok for YOU to come here and perpetuate a 20+ page post, yet you not only lock, but erase my posting leading the Morelia crowd to YOUR discussion here???? What the hell Shawn? I wish there was a [ B.S. ] insert quote here [ /B.S ] option.

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WOW ... more lies ... shocker.

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Sorry for the abscence, but sometimes it's good to let a thread develop a little on it's own so that it doesn't turn into a parsing match. besides...weekends are for downtime.

This discussion was started 3 years ago at another forum ,which I now own, but didn't found. The interesting thing in the Carpet Python hobby right now is there are several new morphs. The problem with morphs, is that peole want to combine them, and in carpet pythons...they occure in different subspecies: Here is an example

Jaguar: Coastal
Zebra: Jungle
Granite: Irian Jaya
Caramel: Coastal
Tiger: Coastal
Striped: Bredli
Albino: Darwin
Axanthic: Coastal
I am sure i am forgeting 1 or two, but you get the idea.

Althought these are all carpet pythons...they are all distinct subspecies (although the arguement can, and has been made, that thay should not be, as they are not distinct enough, with the exception of Bredli)

So the problem arises when you combine these animals, you have "normal" appearing offsping as well. Spining these off to the public, labels correectly or not, muddies the gene pool for those looking for "pure" animals.

Hence, what happens is, later in their lives if they live that long, you see big, brown, obvious hybrid carpet pythons that are very, very hard to find homes for.

This is a problem that is almost unique to Carpets right now, as the morph craze has bled over into carpet pythons. As a hobbiest who see's the value on both sides (I really do enjoy crossing morphs to see what will be created) I have to spin off hybrid or "Mutt" offspring ass well. This means I am part of the problem of muddying up the gene pool when i create these. I used to just sell them off as what they were, but have learned personally, that this just doesn't work, as it's REALLY bad for the captive gene pool of carpets (which is already really messed up BTW) because many are just sold as a "jungle" or a "coastal" when they want to resell them, which is inaccurate...and sucks if you are a purist.

As we spin off lots of these siblings (remember, carpets can have up to 40 eggs per clutch, depending on the subspecies) they can do lots of damage, and may, if not most of them will have lives that will end badly (again, IMHO).

I tried to adapt this arguement for ball pythons since this is a Ball Python forum. You guys have no problems with hybridization, but you produce a TON of normals. I wondered if any of you thought along the lines that I do, that it may be better to just cull some of your offpsring. Resoundingly with you guys, that answer is no, but you respect my choice to do what I want as an idividual. No matter how well I tried to play devil's advocate. 8-) I suspect that many of you are pet owners, and have not yet crossed into the realm of breeding lots of babies, but when you do, it does create its own set of ethical challenges, and I thought it would be interesting to hear what you all thought. I have bee challenged by the position that I put myself in, and I am trying my best to do what I feel is right for my animals and my hobby daily.

Thank you all for allowing this discussion, and thanks to those of you who have been respectful in your questions and answers. All posts like this are intended for is to discuss things that may, or may not, be completely popular with everyone, and see what sorts of ideas can come from it, and see if any solutions can be suggested, if anyone has one?

Lastly, I want to say that, I am in the minority of Carpet People. Like most of you, most of the carpet python community, even if they agree that we have a problem, don't have the heart to cull a healthy animal, even if it's a hybrid. In truth, I don't either, which is why I started to feed them to something else. It's a more comgfortable solution to me than just freezing them, and just makes it "acceptable" to me on some level, though I don't like it.

Anyway thanks again for the input guys, and thanks forum Admins for allowing the discussion. It's nearly taboo on my own forums as well, but one that every year or so comes up, and always ends with an extremely interesting discussion. I am not one to block free speech on a topic just because it's uncomfotable.

I'll go back to lurking now.

S~

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I'm so glad you appreciate the attitude here, that will comfort me on sleepless nights.

If you care so deeply about muddying the gene pool, stop breeding mutts.

If you really want to see only pure lines, only breed pure animals.

Blaming the mutts you create for making you have to kill them is somehow just not right. It seems to me that your desire for your morphs outweighs your dislike of killing. So, the question then becomes, what is so desirable about these morphs that you will kill normal looking offspring in order to obtain said morphs?

If you only wanted one or two of each of these morphs, display animals so to speak, being the well heeled man you've presented yourself as, you would simply purchase them from a breeder who specialized in carpets and was hopefully holding true to breeding true.

But you haven't even come close enough to that one to have missed it by a mile.

You don't want a couple of each just because they're pretty or rare or neat to have or you wouldn't be breeding them. You're not philanthropic about your breeding or you wouldn't be charging money for the babies you don't kill. Therefore, I must take the chance and assume, you're in it for the money.

If you didn't want the money more than you didn't want to kill baby snakes, you wouldn't be breeding them at all.

It just seems like you're lying.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

WOW ... more lies ... shocker.

-adam

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It is an honor to know you, Mr. Wysocki. I feel enlightened by what I have learned from you in this very thread. I am proud to call you a friend!

I am also truly humbled to have spent 5 glorious years as a member of this great forum that allows us to speak our minds and learn from each other to grow not only as people, but as animal owners and caretakers.

What more can I do with my 10,000th post on this forum but to use that privilege provided to me by bp.net to speak my mind and say to Shawn C...

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

In light,

Jamie

P.S. Joe: You have some catching up to do! ;)

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

WOW ... more lies ... shocker.

-adam

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SRX's thread was deleted because we have one rule at our forum. Play nice, and be respectful. SRX was intentionally picking fights with me because he doesn't like the new format on our boards, and whenever I would shut him down with an answer, he would come up with something else he doesn't like. All of our threads are still available to comment on, including the culling threads, with the exception of one, which I locked because the forum members requested it. SRX was not blicked from my site, which is an option, I just deleted a thread that had nothing to do with culling, and everything to do with him complaining about the new format. Yes, he tried to bring people to this thread, which I am fine with im linking, I have never made any bones about my thoughts about culling.

S~

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

SRX's thread was deleted because we have one rule at our forum. Play nice, and be respectful. SRX was intentionally picking fights with me because he doesn't like the new format on our boards, and whenever I would shut him down with an answer, he would come up with something else he doesn't like. All of our threads are still available to comment on, including the culling threads, with the exception of one, which I locked because the forum members requested it. SRX was not blicked from my site, which is an option, I just deleted a thread that had nothing to do with culling, and everything to do with him complaining about the new format.

S~

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And having caught you in several lies here, on this site, we should just believe you.....why?