Culling Healthy Animals

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Exactly. He acquired the animals to feed off his un-desireable snakes to when he made the decision to "save" them from what he considers a far worse fate (a pet home). It wasn't a matter of creating these animals to be feeders, he acquired other animals in order to dispose of his undesireable offspring.

However, I think after not receiving much support on his own forum for this same idea, he then decided to justify his reasons for feeding off the "toxic byproduct" of his hybrid breeding, by claiming they would be neglected and abused as pets, therefore, becoming feeders was a far better fate for them.

But then he flips from the well-being of the animal to wanting to keep them out of the breeding pool and reducing the "footprint" of these unfortunate "byproducts" of his breedings. However, as many people asked him on his own forum, and I might have missed him answering - if his reasons behind the culling are really so "noble and honorable" as he wants us to believe, why doesn't he stop creating these hybrids and thus creating these "mutts" as he refers to them, and buy the animals he wants to add to his collection from other breeders?

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Originally Posted by olstyn

That would by necessity be supporting the creation of the same problem he's complaining about, as it would just mean that he was buying from someone who's doing the same thing. I agree with your overall stance (and once again, what you do with your "low-value" babies is AWESOME), but this question was logically inconsistent, as buying the hoped-for end result of his breedings rather than doing the breedings himself would only take the process out of his control, rather than actually stopping it. Many "mutts" would still be created in order for him to acquire an albino granite jag carpet python (3-subspecies double recessive co-dom, if that's what he's after).

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It may be supporting but it is not contributing.

To me, culling healthy animals, should not be resorted to. I don't like the idea of just unloading your offspring by culling. There could be an entry-level hobbyist, or a low-budget person who can't afford a more-expensive morph, who would take your unwanted animals as an adoption. I had several normals befoer we moved, who were not going to be big money-earners; they were normal males. I was able to find an awesome guy locally to take them in; I trusted the adopter, and it was a win-win, because he just wanted some BPs as pets; nothing fancy for breeding. If culling were acceptable; would it have been permissable for me, to just kill-off my healthy males because I no longer wanted them? Wow; if people did that with dogs and cats, they'd possibly be jailed!

I would at least make the effort to find a decent adoptee.Even if it's no $ gain on my part, I could go to bed knowing that that day, I made a snake-wanting human happy, and got a snake into a good home. Killing-off should be reserved for hopelessly ill or suffering animals.

I should add: adoptees should be screened and quizzed. I am also not a fan of unloading unwanted animals onto low-income people who "can't afford to buy one for cash." They also can't afford potential vet bills.. the shoe has to fit, IMO, for an adoption.

As for the emotional aspect of this: I am a human, and I have emotions. To me, killing off a healthy animal who could have a chance at a better life somewhere else, feels Wrong.

The feeder aspect brings to light some other thoughts of mine that I will post about shortly.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

It may be supporting but it is not contributing.

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By buying combo morph animals, he would be creating additional demand for them, thus contributing to the "problem" of "mutt" offspring production.

I'm beginning to get the feeling that you just enjoy antagonizing people, and have chosen me as your new target since the OP seems to have vacated the premises. Try to at least remember that while I've disagreed with you on some of the finer points, we're *basically* on the same side here.

Somebody will buy your animals... if not, lower the price. Simple as that.

Nothing wrong with feeding a cobra some extra normal baby ball pythons, but I dont feel theres any *need* for the actual methodical "culling" of snakes.

I may have missed this info after 24 pages of this thread... but what is this guy doing business as? Or even, what is his name? Where is this forum he has that everybody is referring to? I just wanted to know because we might be purchasing another snake within the next 2 years and I want to be sure I don't get one from him.

I'm pretty disgusted at his allegation that just because we don't spend a lot of money on our snakes that our snakes would be dead in 2 years. You tell my 8-year-old that and you'll be clobbered on the head with his lightsaber.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

would it have been permissable for me, to just kill-off my healthy males because I no longer wanted them? Wow; if people did that with dogs and cats, they'd possibly be jailed!

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I do have to say this. It is actually permissible to kill off your cats and dogs if you don't want them. It must be done in a humane way, such as gun shot to the head or throat slitting, but It is perfectly legal. I am in no way saying I'd do this, but depending on where you are most states allow it.

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Originally Posted by olstyn

That would by necessity be supporting the creation of the same problem he's complaining about, as it would just mean that he was buying from someone who's doing the same thing. I agree with your overall stance (and once again, what you do with your "low-value" babies is AWESOME), but this question was logically inconsistent, as buying the hoped-for end result of his breedings rather than doing the breedings himself would only take the process out of his control, rather than actually stopping it. Many "mutts" would still be created in order for him to acquire an albino granite jag carpet python (3-subspecies double recessive co-dom, if that's what he's after).

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I see your point, BUT, his culling "part" of the clutch HE produces, only reduces this "footprint" he talks about, much less than if he didn't produce at all. If he didn't produce that clutch at all, how many more babies aren't contributing to the footprint now? If he produces and only culls undesireables, then he's still ADDING to the footprint of carpets and not reducing a thing, vs not breeding at all.

Hope that made sense.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

It has nothing to do with using these animals as feeders ... that's just some sugar coated cover story to make people feel better about his decision to breed animals that will produce so-called genetically toxic "by-product" and kill them ... this is about protecting the OPs investment animals.

I understand that an argument can be made that killing rodents is also in a sense protecting an investment, but my question is if the next step after killing rodents is killing normal siblings or "genetic mutts", what's the step after that? Will we one day be advocating the killing of mousers? Or female ball pythons that don't make it to 1500 grams in 18 months? Or males that don't breed at six months of age? For once we decide that killing certain animals is "good for the hobby", you can't stuff that back into the box.

Blessings,

-adam

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This is a misrepresentation of what I am saying as fact. If I opt to sell hybridized normal appearing siblings to keep them from being sold as pure animals at some point in the future, that is protecting the pure lines of carpet pythons in the hobby already (since we can't get more...this is REALLY important). I LOSE money by not selling them. It has nothing to do with protecting my investment. If that were the case, I'd keep all the hets and breed them, but I don't, because they can, ultimatly be represented by someone else as something they are not...ie a coastal...or an IJ...

In order to protect from this eventuality, the best I can do is label them as hybrid f I sell them BUT, some will, eventually be sold as pure by someone who doesn't know any better.

And I stick to my guns. I see lots of big, brown snakes out there, that are obvious hybrids...that people can't hardly give away. They are doomed to very poor quality lives...so why would I make that problem worse?

S~

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

so why would I make that problem worse?

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I'm sorry, I forget ... what is the so-called problem this time?

I thought (based on your own words) you were killing these animals to be used as feeders? You know, you're whole blame the people that feed rodents to justify your killing thing.

I thought (based on your own words) you were single handedly saving the reptile hobby by killing worthless snakes and reducing our so-called "footprint" so that the legislators will leave us alone? You know, you're whole blame the irresponsible people letting animals go in the everglades as well as politicians to justify your killing thing.

I thought (based on your own words) that you were saving these animals from a life of neglect at the hands of irresponsible keepers that you are so absolutely sure are out there waiting to buy your animals and abuse them. You know, you're whole blame the irresponsible public that abuses animals to justify your killing thing.

Now it's genetic purity again? We shouldn't blame you for killing, we should blame the people that you'd sell these animals to that would end up misrepresenting them? It's they're fault you have to kill these snakes?

Gotcha.

Blessings,

-adam

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Originally Posted by MsPrada

I do have to say this. It is actually permissible to kill off your cats and dogs if you don't want them. It must be done in a humane way, such as gun shot to the head or throat slitting, but It is perfectly legal. I am in no way saying I'd do this, but depending on where you are most states allow it.

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I was unaware of that; thanks for clearing it up. I know of someone who put their sick dog down with a single shot to the head (it was instantaneous) and they went about it by being secretive, so I was unsure if it were legal or not.