Kalatoa 100% Pure SD Retic Progression (Pic heavy...)

Great News Bro. Looks happy as a clam to have his new Palace. I love the pics. Hope all goes well with Alex too. [emoji1360]


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Glad she is back home and checking out the new enclosure. I hope the rest of the recovery goes smoothly!

Wishing her a speedy recovery. Thank you for taking such great care of her. Hope she likes her new digs and gets well quickly.

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Originally Posted by jmcrook

Brought Phyllis home today. Deep in shed and her lips are still swollen from surgery but much better than they were previously. We’re going to wait another week or two and see how things progress. If the swelling completely goes away then we’ll leave the beads in her face. If it looks only swollen from the placement of the beads then we’ll discuss removing them.
Welcome home, baby girl!
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...6a5dadeb28.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...6f27115e56.jpg


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How is she doing?

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Originally Posted by Stearns84

How is she doing?

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She's deep in shed right now, so she's doing the usual "play dead and look absolutely miserable" routine. Still some noticeable swelling of the lips but I think some of that is attributed to the several antibiotic beads implanted in her face. Dr. Burke said we'd monitor the reduction of the swelling and if it goes away completely then we'll leave the beads in indefinitely. They won't dissolve, being made of bone cement and all. If after a couple weeks she seems to be better and there's just disfigurement from the beads then we'll discuss removing them.

She looks great in the new digs JMC. Best wishes with her recovery.

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Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

She looks great in the new digs JMC. Best wishes with her recovery.

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Thanks Ziggy! Once she sheds I’ll have a better idea of how she’s feeling. Shed=dead [emoji23]


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Guess I missed it but what cages are those? Interested in that myself

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Originally Posted by oodaT

Guess I missed it but what cages are those? Interested in that myself

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https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...uild-and-Specs



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Originally Posted by jmcrook

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...uild-and-Specs



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Awesome, gonna check him out soon

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How's she doing?

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Originally Posted by Stearns84

How's she doing?

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Still refusing food, still pushing. FML


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Have you tried offering live quail?

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Originally Posted by jmcrook

Still refusing food, still pushing. FML


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Originally Posted by jmcrook

Still refusing food, still pushing. FML


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Dang. Sorry to hear that. I can't even begin to imagine how frustrated you must be. You have done all that can be done. And then some.
Whatever this may be, it is certainly not due to something you did or didn't do.

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Originally Posted by jmcrook

Still refusing food, still pushing. FML


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Dang man. That really sucks :(

I hate everything right now. I’ve spent over $2k on this animal between vet costs and new cage since July and literally nothing has changed behaviorally. I can’t keep on doing this. It’s hard enough to give away a grown retic around here let alone sell or trade one. I hate everything so much right now that words can’t express it. Someone please come to my apt and exterminate both me and this godforesaken snake at once


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Originally Posted by jmcrook

I hate everything right now. I’ve spent over $2k on this animal between vet costs and new cage since July and literally nothing has changed behaviorally. I can’t keep on doing this. It’s hard enough to give away a grown retic around here let alone sell or trade one. I hate everything so much right now that words can’t express it. Someone please come to my apt and exterminate both me and this godforesaken snake at once


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I’m so sorry to hear this. I really thought the fabulous new cage would change her behavior. There isn’t anything you haven’t tried.

I understand the frustration of rehoming a large snake. I had a 12’ albino burm that I’d had for 16 years. I had been trying to rehome her for about a year. I was only l only considering very experienced keepers because she did not have the typical laid back burm personality. She was an extremely agressive feeder (lunge out of the cage) and was often difficult to handle...hissy, irritable, and prone to striking out when she didn’t want to be bothered. When my other half passed away in April of this year, I reached out again to every rescue group and local zoo up to a 2-3 hour drive from home. In the end I had to make the choice to put her down. I couldn’t safely take her out or feed her alone, and the few friends I have that are okay with most of my collection wouldn’t get near her because if her size and temperament. Ultimately it came down to I couldn’t let her really hurt someone or worse. It is still one of the hardest decisions I have ever made.

I hope you don't plan on putting her down. If it comes to that will have to figure out a way to meet me halfway driving and I'll pick her up.

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While I hope it doesn't come down to the animal being put down, one can't fault an owner for doing the responsible thing. JMcrook did all he could to figure out this animals problems. Right now there seems to be something going on that is destroying this poor snakes quality of life (not to mention her owners).

Its all good and well to keep trying to figure things out, but there comes a point where you have done all you can think of and are able to do. If things do not work, what do you do ?

Sure, you could re-home.

But..there are certain animals that are very difficult to re-home to a good home. Animals that people will line up to get, esp. free. Animals that people feel they can do better by then the former owner. But as the owner, you have to be very concerned. Because that animal could very well end up in a worse place. Yes, there is worse that could happen then being put down humanely.
Some new owners do not know when to give up and the suffering continues far beyond the point it should. Some people give up eventually, but let that animal linger on and get into a horrible shape. Some people just pass it on again and eventually things don't end well.

Its difficult for an owner. A Retic is not a corn snake or Ball Python. Esp. one with a big issue such as that, that couldn't be fixed despite many things tried, is even harder to find a good home for. What could another owner do different at this point ? How much more is another owner willing (and able) to spend and do to figure things out? Will the new owner know when to call it quits in the best interest of the animal?

I don't know what JMCrook will or wants to do. Maybe the thought of putting her down never ever crossed his mind and never will. Point is, right now he needs some sympathy and understanding.

He knows his girl and ultimately whatever he ends up doing is his decision and should be respected. If he re-homes her, he will probably look for a home that could house her radically different, perhaps in a small room type of setup like a zoo could provide. Which still wouldn't address that perhaps there is some kind of hidden health issue that keeps her from eating and is making her rub and be miserable.

Perhaps re-home her with an understanding that the new owner will not pass her on. One that will try to fix the issue but know when to quit if things don't work?

Either way, Its up to JMCrook, and I'm sorry he has to make that decision, but it is his to make.

Trust me I sympathize with him zina10. Mad respect for him and all he has and is doing. I am sure he feels like a parent with a new born baby that cries and cries but can't talk to say what is wrong. All to often we wish our animals could talk and communication was easier when things go wrong. I am sure she is doing her best to let him know but her way of communicating is so vague that he has no way of knowing what is going on.

I know is up to him when enough is enough. I hope he finds a solution soon.

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Originally Posted by zina10

While I hope it doesn't come down to the animal being put down, one can't fault an owner for doing the responsible thing. JMcrook did all he could to figure out this animals problems. Right now there seems to be something going on that is destroying this poor snakes quality of life (not to mention her owners).

Its all good and well to keep trying to figure things out, but there comes a point where you have done all you can think of and are able to do. If things do not work, what do you do ?

Sure, you could re-home.

But..there are certain animals that are very difficult to re-home to a good home. Animals that people will line up to get, esp. free. Animals that people feel they can do better by then the former owner. But as the owner, you have to be very concerned. Because that animal could very well end up in a worse place. Yes, there is worse that could happen then being put down humanely.
Some new owners do not know when to give up and the suffering continues far beyond the point it should. Some people give up eventually, but let that animal linger on and get into a horrible shape. Some people just pass it on again and eventually things don't end well.

Its difficult for an owner. A Retic is not a corn snake or Ball Python. Esp. one with a big issue such as that, that couldn't be fixed despite many things tried, is even harder to find a good home for. What could another owner do different at this point ? How much more is another owner willing (and able) to spend and do to figure things out? Will the new owner know when to call it quits in the best interest of the animal?

I don't know what JMCrook will or wants to do. Maybe the thought of putting her down never ever crossed his mind and never will. Point is, right now he needs some sympathy and understanding.

He knows his girl and ultimately whatever he ends up doing is his decision and should be respected. If he re-homes her, he will probably look for a home that could house her radically different, perhaps in a small room type of setup like a zoo could provide. Which still wouldn't address that perhaps there is some kind of hidden health issue that keeps her from eating and is making her rub and be miserable.

Perhaps re-home her with an understanding that the new owner will not pass her on. One that will try to fix the issue but know when to quit if things don't work?

Either way, Its up to JMCrook, and I'm sorry he has to make that decision, but it is his to make.

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Have you thought about something like this being nearby?

Ultrasonic Electronic Driving Device for Expelling Pest Mouse Mice Snake Insects Waterproof Repellent Expelling Device for Hotel Garden Farm In the Open Air Outdoor Solar Energy Black https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072HRBV5N..._lNZ0Bb5M68MX8

Might be worth asking your neighbors. I know snakes don't have ears but they do feel vibrations.

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Originally Posted by Skyrivers

Trust me I sympathize with him zina10. Mad respect for him and all he has and is doing. I am sure he feels like a parent with a new born baby that cries and cries but can't talk to say what is wrong. All to often we wish our animals could talk and communication was easier when things go wrong. I am sure she is doing her best to let him know but her way of communicating is so vague that he has no way of knowing what is going on.

I know is up to him when enough is enough. I hope he finds a solution soon.

Have you thought about something like this being nearby?

Ultrasonic Electronic Driving Device for Expelling Pest Mouse Mice Snake Insects Waterproof Repellent Expelling Device for Hotel Garden Farm In the Open Air Outdoor Solar Energy Black https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072HRBV5N..._lNZ0Bb5M68MX8

Might be worth asking your neighbors. I know snakes don't have ears but they do feel vibrations.

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This behavior, as stated multiple times throughout this lengthy thread, has persisted for two years through two different states, three different enclosures, and three different residences. I am dead certain it’s not a vibration from a neighbor/electronic pest repellent.
If she would just eat I think we’d be in the clear. If she does end up being placed elsewhere it will only be with someone willing, ready, and able to do at least everything I have tried at a moments notice and that I have thoroughly vetted in a most scrutinizing manner.


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Dude,

I'm at a loss. I'm super bummed as you were a person that got me thinking I should snatch this species up. While it did work out for me, I'm really bummed you've had two that have caused so many issues.

A very experienced retic buddy of mine said some retics just push. He followed up by saying he would never own one that does.

This hobby ins't about being miserable, and clearly you are there.

Do what you have to do brother.

Enough time and money!

Not worth it to either you or the animal to continue this.

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Originally Posted by Gio

A very experienced retic buddy of mine said some retics just push. He followed up by saying he would never own one that does.

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Yes, I agree, some are just pushers. It's not fun and not one I'd want to keep either. We've been very luck in that respect.
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I am terribly sorry JM, I really wish there was an easy solution and you have tried so much. Anyone reading this can see how much love and effort you've put into this girl. I cannot even begin to imagine the frustration you are feeling.

Perhaps the breeder would be willing to take her back?

Whatever you decide, do what is right for *you*.
Wishing you luck and peace.

Super bummed to see the latest updates to Phyllis. Wishing you the best man.

JM, whatever the outcome is I hope the solution comes quickly, for the both yours and Phyllis's sake.

Thanks you everyone. Was talking to another retic friend on FB that said they had a female literally push itself to death. Trying to keep my composure and weigh my options as far as final solutions for the both of us. I don’t know what will end up happening but I’m sure whatever the decision is, it will not be an easy one to make. Secretly hoping that she’ll eat soon and things will shape up. Her lips are just getting swollen again as she refuses to quit pushing ever... https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2c17695898.jpg


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I wish I had some words of wisdom or ideas that would help. I can’t think of a thing that you haven’t already tried. Best wishes to you both.

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Originally Posted by jmcrook

Thanks you everyone. Was talking to another retic friend on FB that said they had a female literally push itself to death. Trying to keep my composure and weigh my options as far as final solutions for the both of us. I don’t know what will end up happening but I’m sure whatever the decision is, it will not be an easy one to make. Secretly hoping that she’ll eat soon and things will shape up. Her lips are just getting swollen again as she refuses to quit pushing ever... https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2c17695898.jpg


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Does she always push in the same spot? Or generally, just at the edges of each door or the middle support (where fresh air flows in, telling her thats the way out) ?

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Originally Posted by zina10

Does she always push in the same spot? Or generally, just at the edges of each door or the middle support (where fresh air flows in, telling her thats the way out) ?

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Most generally at gaps in between the doors, but elsewhere in the cage as well.


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I know my thoughts will be far out there, and not well developed yet.

Just thinking of some stuff..

Knowing that Retics are a species that usually travel for miles, and actively hunt for food, I wonder if some of them just have it hard wired into them to "travel". If they could get, in a way, claustrophobic. Perhaps their instinct tells them to get moving.

I have seen certain cushioned mats, usually some form or yoga mat, that are made out of a very cushioned but "slick" smooth material. Do you think it would help to line the inside of the cage with something like that. She could still push her face into it, but it has give.

The doors are more challenging. The snake knows that is where the cage opens, I also believe they feel the "air" moving in from there. However, you have to have doors. And then there are the gaps between doors. Can't really cushion them from the inside. I wonder, though, could those doors be replaced by some sort of plexi plastic glass? You could then cut a round hole into each of those doors and then connect a big tunnel, either going from one door in a big loop to the other door. Or. From one door to yet another cage that is nearby. Or go more elaborate and have that tunnel travel up and around, or along the walls ?

That may sound weird, but sort of like a over sized "hamster cage". Perhaps if she had somewhere to go, out of those doors, she wouldn't push trying to get out. Perhaps going into a tunnel , into another cage, or in a big loop around back into her own cage she would feel like she is "moving". Basically a big endless loop she could take.

What that tunnel could be made out of , I don't know. There are ready made bendable structures, but how solid they would be, I don't know. There is the possible problem of her relieving herself in the tunnel.

You could always swap the doors to the glass ones if you need her to stay in the cage.

I know this may sound really out there, and its just preliminary thoughts that flit through my brain. I just have a feeling that her instinct wants her to be on the move. And if you provide a endless circle, she always has somewhere to go to?

Of course that may be impossible to do or to far out there, or plain not work.

Problem with slick flooring is that I'm sure Phyllis does what Caesar did when he was in breeding mode and would brace himself with his back half against the back of the cage and then just push and literally lift his body off the ground and shake violently while pushing.

As for the 'tube loop', that is a good idea. Could just use big plumbing size pvc piping and just build it the same way you would build a small climbing pvc jungle gym. Just use straight joints so you can break it down into manageable lengths to clean the inside and use 90 degree ones to bend it back around. Then just drill 2 holes next to each other on the either side and use big zipties to secure each section to the other.

I would use PVC piping that was thick enough for Phyllis to go through but not thick enough to double back on or else you could risk her getting stuck.

And btw, that is some serious swelling. Caesar would get some bumps and lumps from his breeding pushing but nothing that bad. Holy cow.

If there was such a thing I would like wider tubing..where she could easily double over..even after a big meal...and tubing that would be see through. So you could tell where she is and what she is doing.

I don't think there is anything like that though. At least not easily found. Well, we got a clear piece of pvc pipe for a pool filter connection once. But the diameter was small.

Would also be cool to make one tube go from one door of the cage to the door of another cage. One tube on each side of each cage. Creating one big circle.

Maybe I should come up with a retic habitat that has modular connections and areas that you can put together much like those Hamster ones. Only bigger and connecting to a good snake enclosure [emoji6] they do seem to like being on the go.


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Maybe find someway to fashion a cushion or soft barrier against the inside of the glass to soften the abrasion? Let her out for 2-3 hours a day? I'm so sorry, I really hope you find a solution soon — If it comes down to euthanizing, don't worry too much about the reaction of others. You know what's right for yourself and your family, not anyone else.

My olive python is still quite young but surfs quite often against the front of the cage, and this entire thread sits in the back of my mind everyday. Thank you for sharing your experiences so willingly.

Perhaps something along those lines?

http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...ics/PUR150.jpg

or rather like this

https://www.gfps.com/master/en_US/pr...learsch80.html

If a loose duct type material, it would probably need to be fastened at certain intervals or short enough (leading to another cage) that she can't tie herself of the product in knots..

I don't know if it would help. But she seems to want to get out. So if the doors lead to "somewhere" even if it is just a loop or another cage that then again leads back to the first cage, it may fool her into thinking she isn't contained and can travel. Even if she basically just goes in circles..

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Originally Posted by zina10

I know my thoughts will be far out there, and not well developed yet.

Just thinking of some stuff..

Knowing that Retics are a species that usually travel for miles, and actively hunt for food, I wonder if some of them just have it hard wired into them to "travel". If they could get, in a way, claustrophobic. Perhaps their instinct tells them to get moving.

I have seen certain cushioned mats, usually some form or yoga mat, that are made out of a very cushioned but "slick" smooth material. Do you think it would help to line the inside of the cage with something like that. She could still push her face into it, but it has give.

The doors are more challenging. The snake knows that is where the cage opens, I also believe they feel the "air" moving in from there. However, you have to have doors. And then there are the gaps between doors. Can't really cushion them from the inside. I wonder, though, could those doors be replaced by some sort of plexi plastic glass? You could then cut a round hole into each of those doors and then connect a big tunnel, either going from one door in a big loop to the other door. Or. From one door to yet another cage that is nearby. Or go more elaborate and have that tunnel travel up and around, or along the walls ?

That may sound weird, but sort of like a over sized "hamster cage". Perhaps if she had somewhere to go, out of those doors, she wouldn't push trying to get out. Perhaps going into a tunnel , into another cage, or in a big loop around back into her own cage she would feel like she is "moving". Basically a big endless loop she could take.

What that tunnel could be made out of , I don't know. There are ready made bendable structures, but how solid they would be, I don't know. There is the possible problem of her relieving herself in the tunnel.

You could always swap the doors to the glass ones if you need her to stay in the cage.

I know this may sound really out there, and its just preliminary thoughts that flit through my brain. I just have a feeling that her instinct wants her to be on the move. And if you provide a endless circle, she always has somewhere to go to?

Of course that may be impossible to do or to far out there, or plain not work.

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I like the thinking here, however I think it would necessitate having to completely disassemble the tube contraption in order to open the doors every time I need to enter the cage. Which could possibly make keeping this animal even more annoying. Not to mention the investment I’d have to make in acquiring the tools needed to construct this thing. I can also see this easily being broken as she weighs 25lbs. Plexiglass is strong but not a material I’d choose to bear a heavy load.
She’s even pushed at the windows in my apt when I let her out to roam the entire house. It’s obnoxious and beyond frustrating. For the time being I’m just going to hope she eats soon. If she’ll start eating again she’ll be calm and I’ll just slam her with food. I know it’s not healthy but I’d rather have a fat, lazy snake than a lean one that tries to peel her face from her skull every day.
I just can’t keep up the vet and cage modification expenses for a snake whose behavior will simply not change.
Not meaning to be overly critical of any suggestions here, just thinking out loud I guess. As Gio said, this isn’t supposed to be a miserable hobby/stress project and that’s all it is for me at this point.



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It's sounds intriguing but not sure if it would really work, she may just be a pusher. The only things left I could think of which sometimes stop pushing is a much smaller cage, moving from a tank to a tub (rather difficult at her size but I've done this with young ones before) or turning the temps down a bit as some will push to get away from heat. But again even with any of those changes, she may just simply be a pusher and need a full room which I know is not really a possible solution.

I hope she eats soon as well. I forget but did the vet confirm she's a girl for sure? So odd that she will not eat.

When you give her toys does she push them around the cage (or push her water bowl around) or is she only pushing on the cage itself?
edit - oh just saw you say she pushes on windows even when out.
dangit.

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril

It's sounds intriguing but not sure if it would really work, she may just be a pusher. The only things left I could think of which sometimes stop pushing is a much smaller cage, moving from a tank to a tub (rather difficult at her size but I've done this with young ones before) or turning the temps down a bit as some will push to get away from heat. But again even with any of those changes, she may just simply be a pusher and need a full room which I know is not really a possible solution.

I hope she eats soon as well. I forget but did the vet confirm she's a girl for sure? So odd that she will not eat.

When you give her toys does she push them around the cage (or push her water bowl around) or is she only pushing on the cage itself?
edit - oh just saw you say she pushes on windows even when out.
dangit.

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Yeah, I’ve tried temps as low as 72* and up to 95* with no behavioral change. Same with cage size.
She probed at 7-8scales deep. Shallow for a male but deep for a female. However her one pairing with Gerald in August showed all the telltale signs of an uninterested female: wagging her tail, gaping vent, peeing everywhere all while Gerald was spurring away at her.
Toys do nothing for her. She’ll push her water bowl around but only to use it as leverage to push harder at the doors.


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Wagging tail, gaping vent and peeing are all things that my BP females do when they are very interested. Perhaps you could try to pair her again?

Perhaps the issue was Gerald and even though he seemed interested, maybe he just didn't figure things out?

As to the feeding issue, I know they use different senses to locate and identify prey. Those senses are all located in the head/face. Nostrils for scent, heat pits for heat signature and the Jacobson organ.

Could it be that her facial swelling and injury is tampering with those senses ? If the swelling is on her face/lips, could it pinch of her nostrils internally, enough to make it hard for her to "smell" the prey?

Could the heat pits be compromised as well, as they are quite the intricate structures internally. Perhaps she just doesn't recognize prey, or it confuses her because it doesn't seem to be "right".

Perhaps you could try to make her prey a little hotter then usually and also quite stinky. Like male mouse bedding stinky. Something really rank and penetrating.

I know that when my nose and sinuses are swollen, I can only smell really strong scents.

Once again, those are really far out ideas and thoughts. And I know you are so frustrated that right now even reading about ideas and thoughts of others may just be stressful.
I have a horse with some health issues and some strange symptoms that go along. I have researched it to death, tried everything there is to try, had hopes, had hopes dashed. Again and again. Each time I talk to people about it they have questions and suggestions. Many of which I have tried or know won't work, because of knowing my animal and the circumstances. Each time it all has to be explained all over again. It can get exhausting, even though I know its well meaning and I appreciate that. So I understand. If it gets to be to much, just tell me to stop, and I will. I understand what you are going through.

Ultimately, its your animal. You know her better then anyone else. You know what you've tried and done. I hope she just starts eating for you and things will calm down. If not, its clear you love her enough to make a decision that is in her and your best interest, whatever that ends up being.

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Originally Posted by zina10

Wagging tail, gaping vent and peeing are all things that my BP females do when they are very interested. Perhaps you could try to pair her again?

Perhaps the issue was Gerald and even though he seemed interested, maybe he just didn't figure things out?

As to the feeding issue, I know they use different senses to locate and identify prey. Those senses are all located in the head/face. Nostrils for scent, heat pits for heat signature and the Jacobson organ.

Could it be that her facial swelling and injury is tampering with those senses ? If the swelling is on her face/lips, could it pinch of her nostrils internally, enough to make it hard for her to "smell" the prey?

Could the heat pits be compromised as well, as they are quite the intricate structures internally. Perhaps she just doesn't recognize prey, or it confuses her because it doesn't seem to be "right".

Perhaps you could try to make her prey a little hotter then usually and also quite stinky. Like male mouse bedding stinky. Something really rank and penetrating.

I know that when my nose and sinuses are swollen, I can only smell really strong scents.

Once again, those are really far out ideas and thoughts. And I know you are so frustrated that right now even reading about ideas and thoughts of others may just be stressful.
I have a horse with some health issues and some strange symptoms that go along. I have researched it to death, tried everything there is to try, had hopes, had hopes dashed. Again and again. Each time I talk to people about it they have questions and suggestions. Many of which I have tried or know won't work, because of knowing my animal and the circumstances. Each time it all has to be explained all over again. It can get exhausting, even though I know its well meaning and I appreciate that. So I understand. If it gets to be to much, just tell me to stop, and I will. I understand what you are going through.

Ultimately, its your animal. You know her better then anyone else. You know what you've tried and done. I hope she just starts eating for you and things will calm down. If not, its clear you love her enough to make a decision that is in her and your best interest, whatever that ends up being.

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Yeah, with retics I’ve been told the tail wagging and pissing and such is a sign that the female isn’t receptive. Unfortunately I had to rehome gerald several weeks ago because he became incredibly violent and combative due to wanting to breed and I’m a solo keeper... can’t have an 8-9’ angry chainsaw because he could have done some serious damage to me and I have no one to assist me if things got hairy. I’m also in no position to have a clutch of retics atm so that’s off the table for now.
I don’t understand the feeding issue, she’s always eaten with her face in various states of swelling/trauma from her pushing. She was eating great, turned down a meal, ate again after shedding in August, and now hasn’t eaten since.


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Jesus Christ... she’s now managed to push to the point that I just found one of the antibiotic beads they implanted in her face stuck to a cage door.
Maybe she was just never meant to be a captive animal? She is first generation in captivity after all. Even my vet just told me she’s running out of ideas for what to do at this point


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Originally Posted by jmcrook

Jesus Christ... she’s now managed to push to the point that I just found one of the antibiotic beads they implanted in her face stuck to a cage door.
Maybe she was just never meant to be a captive animal? She is first generation in captivity after all. Even my vet just told me she’s running out of ideas for what to do at this point


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im so sorry, friend. just sending you positive vibes; you both are in my thoughts. <3

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Originally Posted by jmcrook

Jesus Christ... she’s now managed to push to the point that I just found one of the antibiotic beads they implanted in her face stuck to a cage door.
Maybe she was just never meant to be a captive animal? She is first generation in captivity after all. Even my vet just told me she’s running out of ideas for what to do at this point


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I don't envy you for having to make a decision how to move forward with this girl..

Sorry it hasn't worked out better.

Hope dies last, but the quality of life (yours and hers) needs to be factored in, as well..

Just a sad situation all around..

Thank you, Taylor and Zina. My vet doesn’t want us to give up just yet, she’s going to see if she can’t think of something else to try out. I’m really beginning to fear that I’ll have to put her down. I just can’t afford to keep up with the cost of maintaining her veterinary treatment at this rate, not to mention the dark cloud hanging over my head all day everyday just wondering how fiercely she’s pushing while I’m gone and then coming home, where relaxation is no longer an option, because i can hear her from across the apt destroying herself. Definitely feeling my most defeated and lowest of morale in over 20yrs of keeping reptiles right now


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Originally Posted by jmcrook

Thank you, Taylor and Zina. My vet doesn’t want us to give up just yet, she’s going to see if she can’t think of something else to try out. I’m really beginning to fear that I’ll have to put her down. I just can’t afford to keep up with the cost of maintaining her veterinary treatment at this rate, not to mention the dark cloud hanging over my head all day everyday just wondering how fiercely she’s pushing while I’m gone and then coming home, where relaxation is no longer an option, because i can hear her from across the apt destroying herself. Definitely feeling my most defeated and lowest of morale in over 20yrs of keeping reptiles right now


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I understand that you feel this way. She is your animal, your responsibility. But you also have to give yourself some credit. You already KNOW that she is far from the only retic that does that. It seems that this is a rather wide spread issue with them. And there seems to be no rhyme or rhythm to it. You are either lucky with your retic, or you are not. Even the best of care, the most innovation and the willingness to spend big bucks on enclosures and vets seems to make no difference when its bad. It was just that. Bad luck. Its nothing you did or didn't do. I've been reading reptile forums for years, on all kinds of species, and I've rarely come across anyone that was as committed to an animal with that problem as you have been.

I commend your vet for keep wanting to try. Surely they are also intrigued about this issue and wonder if there is a way to fix it. I wish there was a team of experts/researchers that would spend some years on studying this phenomena, to see if their is some sort of common denominator in the animals that push until they destroy themselves. Until its understood, there is no way to prevent it or fix it.
Every so often you get researchers and labs interested in such a thing, sort of like they did with German Shepherds and their quirk about becoming addicted and neurotic to light/shadow movement if you let them chase the laser dot. Some of them become so obsessed, it destroys their and their owners quality of life. Its sad and scary.

I know you are down. What you should do is have a sit down with your vet. Before you go, write down all your questions, your concerns. Explain your limitations financially. Explain how far you are willing to go if her quality of life becomes compromised. Ask them to be completely honest when they think treatment is not going to do much difference anymore. You and the vet need to be 100% on the same page.

You have been told by all the members following your journey with her how much they admire you, and that it is not your fault, not to beat yourself up about it. Believe them.

I wish there was some sort of Elizabethan collar for snakes. Like there are for dogs and cats to keep them from messing with their wounds. Of course on a snake it would just slide down their bodies..

I’m so sorry to hear this has continued to worsen. There’s nothing I can add that others haven’t said. You really have shown your dedication and care of Phyllis. There aren’t a lot of keepers that would go to the lengths you already have. It is a large weight around your neck when you’re trying to figure out the right thing to do. I know the decision I made for my burm Josephine was not popular with many keepers...believe me I’ve gotten plenty of comments on what I should have done or could have done differently. The thing is, no-one else really has all of the facts for your situation. I’m truly wishing you the best and hoping for a “Hail Mary” pass to come your way.

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Originally Posted by zina10

You have been told by all the members following your journey with her how much they admire you, and that it is not your fault, not to beat yourself up about it. Believe them.

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Yes, this. You’ve done so much for Phyllis, nobody with sense can criticize you for not trying. And I think I can safely speak for others that we’re even more concerned for you than her.

I wish I lived closer so I could offer real hugs and (unofficial) therapy beagle love.


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My Big Burm went to a Zoo here in NY. Is that a option or something you can look into? Mine is now in a Huge Display with a Pond, Rock walls and Caves. Retirement hahahaha


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Originally Posted by CALM Pythons

My Big Burm went to a Zoo here in NY. Is that a option or something you can look into? Mine is now in a Huge Display with a Pond, Rock walls and Caves. Retirement hahahaha


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I may have to look into that.

So how is Phyllis doing? She getting any better or eating?

You could keep her in a tent with no hard sides maybe?