Culling Healthy Animals

I've been waiting for a point to be brought up here, and it hasn't yet so I'll bring it up.

Ball pythons do not have the same hybridization problem that carpets have. Your issue with this hybrid problem (as it deals with BPs) is entirely null because it does not happen. There are the occasional hybrids (super ball, carpall, etc) but those animals are so few in number and very rare in the hobby that they arent the same problem. Also, i own a hybrid carpet and I'd never think of getting rid of her, or culling her just because she isnt a pure blood animal.. Perhaps this is a scenario where microchipping could come in handy. (there is a thread on this in the BP advanced husbandry section if you'd like to view it). But it would cost you money.

Shawn, i seriously can not comprehend why you came here (to the people that matter..?) to discuss this particular issue.

Culling perfectly healthy animals because they aren't up to your standards is bogus. If all your animals were used for feeders, sure, i get that. If you held some back to create more feeders (much like people who breed feeder rats hold back colors they like or rats with certain personalities or those they bond to) to create more feeder rats, sure. But you pick and choose favorites based on morph, which only translates to money. Like you've been told a hundred times through this thread, you are NOT going to find someone who agrees with you on this. Most of the people on this forum are here because they genuinely care about their animals and their lives, not making a quick buck. People that are found out to be lying or cheating scum bags have no place here and I believe the admins do a very good job of seeing to that. This forum is here to spread information to anyone who bothers to look for it or is directed here.

You are not a saint for this. And to me, you do VERY MUCH come off as "holier then thou" because you "cull 10% of your animals" to "save the hobby." You still haven't addressed the discrepancies with your "footprint." .. Culling 15-20 animals a year helps.....how?

I'm not sure what kind of validation you're looking for for this, but I dont think youre going to find it here.

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You want to justify killing of snakes by claiming that you're saving them from a miserable life, but you are the reason they have a life in the first place ... So if you're seriously that concerned about it, don't breed.

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Best thing I have read all day. That is all that needs to be said.

I have never seen "reasoning" that was as bad as what is in this thread. You bring their lives into existence KNOWINGLY only to end it before they even have a CHANCE, while their brothers and sisters are allowed to continue because they may not be as "low value". Because the 10% of snakes you "cull" are... well, like you said..... "unfortunate side effects". And absolutely, positively doomed no matter who you sell them to. Even though it is your fault in the first place that they ever had to be born to experience being "doomed" or ripped to shreds by a giant fish in the first place.

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Originally Posted by aSnakeLovinBabe

Best thing I have read all day. That is all that needs to be said.

I have never seen "reasoning" that was as bad as what is in this thread. You bring their lives into existence KNOWINGLY only to end it before they even have a CHANCE, while their brothers and sisters are allowed to continue because they may not be as "low value". Because the 10% of snakes you "cull" are... well, like you said..... "unfortunate side effects". And absolutely, positively doomed no matter who you sell them to. Even though it is your fault in the first place that they ever had to be born to experience being "doomed" or ripped to shreds by a giant fish in the first place.

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In all honesty the Arawana is probably the easier of the two deaths he offers the ugly ones. They just swallow things whole.

Monitors tend to beat and thrash their food before eating it, often giving a few hefty chomps for good measure.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

In all honesty the Arawana is probably the easier of the two deaths he offers the ugly ones. They just swallow things whole.

Monitors tend to beat and thrash their food before eating it, often giving a few hefty chomps for good measure.

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I would seriously rather be chomped than swallowed whole!! At least if I am chomped... it's done and over! Swallowed whole and that means I suffocate in stomach acid. :O I am looking to get an Arowana sometime soon.... won't be feeding it any sub-par baby garters though.

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Originally Posted by waltah!

If I had to choose to lose my iPhone or one of my normal males I would be losing that iPhone. Just sayin...

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this I know to be true.

Hm, I do have to say, the reason I'm keeping neat patterns or coat types (like Rex) in my mouse and rat colonies isn't really for my personal pleasure, but in case I need to sell some of them off to reduce the colonies over the winter season. If so, gold mice (satins) and pretty himalayan rex rats are going to be much easier to sell to pet stores as pets than brown or white ones would be. Their value is higher, which is why I'm breeding for those colors, and why the other colors get fed off first. I don't see a problem with this. The fact I can open a bin and go 'oh, cool' is a pretty minor part of it.

Don't get me wrong, I love my normal male ball pythons, and would never feed them off to a lizard or fish. If I were going to breed hybrid carpets (which I have no intention of doing, I just don't care for hybrids) I would chip the babies and roll it into their price tag. I wouldn't feed them to fish or lizards either. But to say that it's wrong to do so BECAUSE they're less desirable only due to their lower price tag doesn't seem like a valid moral argument. There is this weird division people make in their minds between 'livestock' and 'pets'. It's completely artificial. It makes no difference to the animals why you value some more than others, or IF you do. It makes no difference to the animals whether you consider them pets, food, or feeders, either. They don't care about your motivations. I don't think motivations are relevant here in the first place.

It's hypocritical to have one set of moral standards for feeders, and a completely and totally different set for pets. Animals are animals, and deserve respect no matter what your intended use for them is. That doesn't mean you should stop using feeders. It means you should not make a big division in your mind between them and your snakes. Keep them in clean conditions with clean water and decent food, and do your best to be humane. Don't be horrified if someone uses snakes as feeders, if it's NECESSARY. If you're going to tell him he is wrong to do feed off his culls, you have to come up with a better argument than 'they're pets, so it's wrong'. And a MUCH better argument than 'it's wrong to feed off only the ones you don't like or aren't worth as much because they're all equally alive'.

You feed your snakes rats because rats aren't worth as much as your snakes. If they were, you would probably be looking for an alternative food source pretty quick. That's a value judgment based on $ as well. Unless your moral reasoning is even more frivolous, such as "I like snakes better than rats". If you're going to tell this guy he's wrong, you've got to make a logical argument, not an emotional one that doesn't bear up to scrutiny.

I have not read this whole thread because IMO , I cant believe it lasted as long as it did. (this wont be politically correct and is not to offend but argueing like this and letting someone that has his views so different from the majority, with no chance of changing his views is retarded).
I can say from my own experiences that most people I know that have BP's as pets have the "UGLY normal one's" not the more expensive morphs.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Hm, I do have to say, the reason I'm keeping neat patterns or coat types (like Rex) in my mouse and rat colonies isn't really for my personal pleasure, but in case I need to sell some of them off to reduce the colonies over the winter season. If so, gold mice (satins) and pretty himalayan rex rats are going to be much easier to sell to pet stores as pets than brown or white ones would be. Their value is higher, which is why I'm breeding for those colors, and why the other colors get fed off first. I don't see a problem with this. The fact I can open a bin and go 'oh, cool' is a pretty minor part of it.

Don't get me wrong, I love my normal male ball pythons, and would never feed them off to a lizard or fish. If I were going to breed hybrid carpets (which I have no intention of doing, I just don't care for hybrids) I would chip the babies and roll it into their price tag. I wouldn't feed them to fish or lizards either. But to say that it's wrong to do so BECAUSE they're less desirable only due to their lower price tag doesn't seem like a valid moral argument. There is this weird division people make in their minds between 'livestock' and 'pets'. It's completely artificial. It makes no difference to the animals why you value some more than others, or IF you do. It makes no difference to the animals whether you consider them pets, food, or feeders, either. They don't care about your motivations. I don't think motivations are relevant here in the first place.

It's hypocritical to have one set of moral standards for feeders, and a completely and totally different set for pets. Animals are animals, and deserve respect no matter what your intended use for them is. That doesn't mean you should stop using feeders. It means you should not make a big division in your mind between them and your snakes. Keep them in clean conditions with clean water and decent food, and do your best to be humane. Don't be horrified if someone uses snakes as feeders, if it's NECESSARY. If you're going to tell him he is wrong to do feed off his culls, you have to come up with a better argument than 'they're pets, so it's wrong'. And a MUCH better argument than 'it's wrong to feed off only the ones you don't like or aren't worth as much because they're all equally alive'.

You feed your snakes rats because rats aren't worth as much as your snakes. If they were, you would probably be looking for an alternative food source pretty quick. That's a value judgment based on $ as well. Unless your moral reasoning is even more frivolous, such as "I like snakes better than rats". If you're going to tell this guy he's wrong, you've got to make a logical argument, not an emotional one that doesn't bear up to scrutiny.

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Huh? I'm pretty sure some of us made this distinction quite clear and used little to no emotion at all in providing that clarity.

He can feed all he wants to whomever he wants.

Telling us that he is ethically superior, brave and humble because he not only dares to do so but speaks publicly about it is crap. His reason is simple economics. It's cheaper and easier to feed off the ugly ones.

That too is fine. But don't hand me a shovel full of crap and tell me it's freshcut roses.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Hm, I do have to say, the reason I'm keeping neat patterns or coat types (like Rex) in my mouse and rat colonies isn't really for my personal pleasure, but in case I need to sell some of them off to reduce the colonies over the winter season. If so, gold mice (satins) and pretty himalayan rex rats are going to be much easier to sell to pet stores as pets than brown or white ones would be. Their value is higher, which is why I'm breeding for those colors, and why the other colors get fed off first. I don't see a problem with this. The fact I can open a bin and go 'oh, cool' is a pretty minor part of it.

Don't get me wrong, I love my normal male ball pythons, and would never feed them off to a lizard or fish. If I were going to breed hybrid carpets (which I have no intention of doing, I just don't care for hybrids) I would chip the babies and roll it into their price tag. I wouldn't feed them to fish or lizards either. But to say that it's wrong to do so BECAUSE they're less desirable only due to their lower price tag doesn't seem like a valid moral argument. There is this weird division people make in their minds between 'livestock' and 'pets'. It's completely artificial. It makes no difference to the animals why you value some more than others, or IF you do. It makes no difference to the animals whether you consider them pets, food, or feeders, either. They don't care about your motivations. I don't think motivations are relevant here in the first place.

It's hypocritical to have one set of moral standards for feeders, and a completely and totally different set for pets. Animals are animals, and deserve respect no matter what your intended use for them is. That doesn't mean you should stop using feeders. It means you should not make a big division in your mind between them and your snakes. Keep them in clean conditions with clean water and decent food, and do your best to be humane. Don't be horrified if someone uses snakes as feeders, if it's NECESSARY. If you're going to tell him he is wrong to do feed off his culls, you have to come up with a better argument than 'they're pets, so it's wrong'. And a MUCH better argument than 'it's wrong to feed off only the ones you don't like or aren't worth as much because they're all equally alive'.

You feed your snakes rats because rats aren't worth as much as your snakes. If they were, you would probably be looking for an alternative food source pretty quick. That's a value judgment based on $ as well. Unless your moral reasoning is even more frivolous, such as "I like snakes better than rats". If you're going to tell this guy he's wrong, you've got to make a logical argument, not an emotional one that doesn't bear up to scrutiny.

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That's the impression I got too, when I read these posts. Yes, the OP does this practice himself but I didn't get the impression that he said everyone else /should do it/--however, I did get the impression that many people were telling him he shouldn't and the reason was arbitrary in terms of talking about how it's for monetary gain vs how much he loved the animals vs the purpose of culling them--but no one really had a problem when the same principle applied to feeder animals.

Perhaps we were debating about completely different things to begin with.

No one here (unless somehow one of us is like totally awesomely omnipotent) can say there's one absolute truth--someone's truth could be someone else's lie, since the moment is gone and past, it comes down to "he says so because this happened" and "she says so because this happened."

There is also no right or wrong--there is only /choice/. We say something is "right" based on our own principles and values, but that isn't always the same as someone else's--who is anyone to say their principles are more right than another's?

Po-opinions, pro-decisions, without having someone tell you you're wrong or horrid or disgusting because they don't agree with your practices, isn't that what it means to have freedom?

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Originally Posted by p3titexburial

That's the impression I got too, when I read these posts. Yes, the OP does this practice himself but I didn't get the impression that he said everyone else /should do it/--however, I did get the impression that many people were telling him he shouldn't and the reason was arbitrary in terms of talking about how it's for monetary gain vs how much he loved the animals vs the purpose of culling them--but no one really had a problem when the same principle applied to feeder animals.

Perhaps we were debating about completely different things to begin with.

No one here (unless somehow one of us is like totally awesomely omnipotent) can say there's one absolute truth--someone's truth could be someone else's lie, since the moment is gone and past, it comes down to "he says so because this happened" and "she says so because this happened."

There is also no right or wrong--there is only /choice/. We say something is "right" based on our own principles and values, but that isn't always the same as someone else's--who is anyone to say their principles are more right than another's?

Po-opinions, pro-decisions, without having someone tell you you're wrong or horrid or disgusting because they don't agree with your practices, isn't that what it means to have freedom?

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So you would deny others the right to these strictures and boundaries?

Interesting.