Culling Healthy Animals

Hmm...I am not real sure where to start on this one. I think that the biggest part of this thread that was missing, was the part where the OP waited for so long to mention that hybridization was a factor of the culling.
I have been an aquarium hobbyist for about 8 years now and I am still not sure where I stand on hybridization. I am sure many of you are wondering what that has to do with hybridization at all. Well.....just type in the words "flowerhorn" on any purist cichlid forum or mention the word hybrid and prepare to be flamed.
It has gotten so bad in the hobby that there are very few sources of some species of fish that are pure. Amphilophus trimaculatus, Amphilophus citrinellus, Amphilophus labiatus, and Amphilophus festae are just a few species that have been so muddied, that in order to get a pure strain you have to find someone who has wild caughts or f1 available. The day when you can walk into ANY pet store and find them has gone. Sure, petsmart and other places sell what they "call" a midas or a red devil, but it is simply a mislabled animal.
People have been creating these gorgeous, high selling hybrid fish, but at what cost to the hobby? I personally do not have an issue with hybridization as long as the animal is sold as it is, not as something it "looks like".
I can see where the OP is coming from on this point of view. It would be very detrimental to his hobby (carpet pythons specifically not bps) if he did not cull some of his animals. IME with fish, I have sold a hybrid fish (I didn't breed) to the pet store and told them exactly what it was only to have it mislabeled and sold as something else. It can be very disappointing to buy an animal while thinking it is one thing then to have it identified as another.
However, the question has to be asked....Why even bother hybridizing these animals if it could pose such a huge threat on the purity of these animals? What happens when pure strains of them are gone due to hybridizing? Why hybridize them at all if the end result is having to cull the ones that aren't the "what you wanted"?

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Originally Posted by accidental777

However, the question has to be asked....Why even bother hybridizing these animals if it could pose such a huge threat on the purity of these animals? What happens when pure strains of them are gone due to hybridizing? Why hybridize them at all if the end result is having to cull the ones that aren't the "what you wanted"?

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There are 3 answers to this question.

Number one: Money

Number two: More Money

Number three: Greed

That's it. There is NO other reason for these snakes to exist than to be sold. I don't know of a single person who cross breeds snakes and keeps all the offsrping. I don't know anyone who does this that gives away all their babies. I know more than a few, including the op here, who sell them which leads us directly to answers One, Two and finally, Three.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

There are 3 answers to this question.

Number one: Money

Number two: More Money

Number three: Greed

That's it. There is NO other reason for these snakes to exist than to be sold. I don't know of a single person who cross breeds snakes and keeps all the offsrping. I don't know anyone who does this that gives away all their babies. I know more than a few, including the op here, who sell them which leads us directly to answers One, Two and finally, Three.

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Of course they couldn't be doing it because they want to see the results...?

Obviously money is a big factor, but to characterize it as the only factor is myopic at best. There are far better (and quicker) ways to get rich than breeding snakes, as you well know. There must be at least some interest in snakes from the breeders or they wouldn't bother.

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Originally Posted by olstyn

Of course they couldn't be doing it because they want to see the results...?

Obviously money is a big factor, but to characterize it as the only factor is myopic at best. There are far better (and quicker) ways to get rich than breeding snakes, as you well know. There must be at least some interest in snakes from the breeders or they wouldn't bother.

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Nope. I said what I meant. In this instance, since there is no one I know of giving away his offspring, there may be but I don't know of anyone, every single breeder is selling excess offspring.

This isn't about getting rich, it's about making something, sometimes anything, back off and investment and hobby.

If any money at all changes hands, the snakes are a commodity, bought and sold for profit and loss.

IF you were in it to see what happens and that were the only reason, selling your babies, or culling the ugly ones, would not be a concern at all.

I can see where you could think I was referring to all carpet breeders, and in a round about way I am but in that I am referring to all of us who breed and make money off snakes but this guy in particular whose sole motivation is profit.

I didn't claim that you didn't mean what you said, nor did I claim that money was not a motivating factor, nor do I think people should give away their offspring for free (in the general case, at least), but I stand by what I said before. The idea that an enterprise of this sort is entered into solely for monetary reasons is just silly.

Also, the idea that the OP's sole motivation is profit is provably false. If that were true, he'd sell every snake he produces; I don't know what a baby "mutt" carpet goes for wholesale, but it's gotta be more than a single feeder rat/fish/whatever he normally feeds his arrowanna and/or his monitor lizard. Therefore, he *loses* some amount of money every time he culls a healthy snake. If his sole motivation was profit, that would be unacceptable for him.

Note, however, that I do not support his actions - I'm just trying to get you to see that your apparently black and white view of the world may need a little bit of adjustment.

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Originally Posted by olstyn

I'm just trying to get you to see that your apparently black and white view of the world may need a little bit of adjustment.

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When you distill everything down to "Why" it really is that simple. The sole purpose of a business is to make money, no matter how you look at it that is the end goal of that company. The means in which they choose to make that money is a whole other ball game.

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Originally Posted by olstyn

I didn't claim that you didn't mean what you said, nor did I claim that money was not a motivating factor, nor do I think people should give away their offspring for free (in the general case, at least), but I stand by what I said before. The idea that an enterprise of this sort is entered into solely for monetary reasons is just silly.

Also, the idea that the OP's sole motivation is profit is provably false. If that were true, he'd sell every snake he produces; I don't know what a baby "mutt" carpet goes for wholesale, but it's gotta be more than a single feeder rat/fish/whatever he normally feeds his arrowanna and/or his monitor lizard. Therefore, he *loses* some amount of money every time he culls a healthy snake. If his sole motivation was profit, that would be unacceptable for him.

Note, however, that I do not support his actions - I'm just trying to get you to see that your apparently black and white view of the world may need a little bit of adjustment.

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I still disagree.

He's feeding them off because that is easier, cheaper, less hassle, all of which are factors in any business, than finding them good homes.

I think he feels guilty about that and so threads like this one are started.

He's accepted responsibility for his own creations, well and good, but his reasoning is false.

In this instance in particular and to a large, perhaps exclusive degree, I think he's motivated by profit, or if not profit per se, what he can get for his snakes.

It's easier for him to feed an 8 dollar baby to his fish than it is to sell it, pack it, and ship it. That's business and I completely understand that.

Saying how brave and humble he is by doing that and having the nerve to talk about when mysterious others do the same yet remain silent is balderdash.

I see shades of grey. Not here, but I do see them.

It might be "fun" to hybridize things to find out what you end up with, but it is not "fun" anymore when pure species start disappearing because of it. Like I said, look at the cichlid hobby, you will see what I mean.
Like Wes posted, if it was a "project" to see what hybrid pairings produce and if he kept all of his offspring from such as, it would be different.
For one, he is producing them to make a profit. Secondly, they are being sold to people who may breed them later on and sell them as a pure species. Third, he is using hybridization as an excuse to cull healthy animals.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I still disagree.

He's feeding them off because that is easier, cheaper, less hassle, all of which are factors in any business, than finding them good homes.

I think he feels guilty about that and so threads like this one are started.

He's accepted responsibility for his own creations, well and good, but his reasoning is false.

In this instance in particular and to a large, perhaps exclusive degree, I think he's motivated by profit, or if not profit per se, what he can get for his snakes.

It's easier for him to feed an 8 dollar baby to his fish than it is to sell it, pack it, and ship it. That's business and I completely understand that.

Saying how brave and humble he is by doing that and having the nerve to talk about when mysterious others do the same yet remain silent is balderdash.

I see shades of grey. Not here, but I do see them.

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Well, I can actually agree with you on most of that. I only take exception to the "cheaper," and *possibly* the "guilty," but that second one is very difficult to objectively evaluate, so I'll just let it go. You're definitely right that what he's doing is easier than what rabernet does with her excess low-value babies. (IMO her method is awesome, BTW; all baby snakes should be so lucky as to be born at her house.)

I also agree that it's not brave or humble or impressive to talk about what he's doing.

All that said, I still don't think he'd breed snakes at all if he didn't personally enjoy them at least somewhat. I'm just not willing to believe that someone would willingly deal with the daily maintenance of a collection of snakes solely for money. He must like them at least a little bit.

I'm not saying it's not the darkest shade of gray that you can differentiate from black, but it just can't be pure black and white. Just about nothing in this world is.

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Originally Posted by olstyn

I'm not saying it's not the darkest shade of gray that you can differentiate from black, but it just can't be pure black and white. Just about nothing in this world is.

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Again I must, respectfully, disagree.

Right is right, wrong is wrong. Truth is truth and what isn't, isn't.

That's plain and simple and black and white.

There is nothing wrong with what he's doing.

The excuses he offers have been proven fallacious more than once. That either makes him terribly stupid, which you seem to think he is not, or a liar, which I am certain he is.

Whether or not he is a terribly stupid liar or just terribly stupid is no doubt the subject of many conversations in the last 2 days.