Input on multiple snakes in one tank.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

I reached my conclusion via logic. Two animals sharing a space does provide for the possibility of dominance issues.

While I can't scientifically document its existence I can choose to eliminate it from my husbandry habits.

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And an issue with dominance, in a species that is not known to have a pecking order, is the ONLY possibility you can come up with?

Heh.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Just a few days ago there was a thread where someone was keeping two hatchlings together. One was eating perfectly fine, but the other had not taken a meal. He separated them and within 2 days the non-eater started eating again. To me this points to "dominance".

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Let me throw this in there:

I had a pair of young anthill pythons that were sharing a drawer for the last year. Three weeks ago, I purchased a new rack and separated them. Once separated, the female has since declined to eat.

In all seriousness - what should I make of this?

Hey guys, For what it is worth. (not much I know) since I'm "NEW" But I have been doing a study on this for the past 3 years for my own benifit. I have been housing 2 trio's of ball pythons together. A 2.1 of normals and an 1.2 of normals. I have only seperated them while feeding and when the 2.1 went in to breeding mode.(more to come on that). What I have seen is They do cuddle alot! They get along fine together it's like they dont even know one another is there. With the 1.2 I have seen them breed and both females produced for me. I seperated the females after they laid so they could feed a few times in there own bin and put them all together again. The male would be fine and act like they were not even there until the females went into breeding mode again the next season. As far as the 2.1, Well they where fine until the female was receptive. Then it was a war zone so to speak. Yes, I let the males combat (how else would I know the facts right?) well combating was more or less like 2 8 year old boys pushing and shoving. So I watched them very close and decided to remove the male I thought was the weker of the 2. after the female laid and fed a few times I put them all back together and they where just fine. Yep, Until she became receptive again..

Anyway, Thanks for listening and just remeber. Each snake is different what happens to mine may not be what happens to any of yours..

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Originally Posted by wilomn

And an issue with dominance, in a species that is not known to have a pecking order, is the ONLY possibility you can come up with?

Heh.

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Transfer of illness between housed animals is enough of a deterrent for me. Which I did state in my original post.

Sure proper husbandry should in turn produce healthy snakes; but animals get sick regardless at times.

i would just like to add,since we do try to replicate thier natural areas temps and so on,and try to find out how they in the wild,this was one hole

YouTube - Ball pythons in the wild

That is some footage. Those are also in the wild where they do not have plastic or glass walls making there living quarter choices for them.
Not debating, just a note (also seemed as if there was a nice clutch there, IE breeding.).

We do not like to house animals together here. I've in the past worked for a handful of pet stores (in my younger years). I understand the business with that, I understand why they house them together ($)

Personally here at the rescue I like to record all possible signs of feces / urates, shedding, and or illnesses. That is just my way of doing things with our animals.
I've tried it both ways (In the past (my younger years..lol) I did keep animals together). I prefer single housing. That's just my opinion as I have learned over the years.
But to you it is your pet(s), and your own way of doing things.
Sincerely
Rusty

PS I have had many drop offs (in fact recently we took in 1.0 & 0.1 ball pythons). Ten years of age and all that time lived together in a twenty long aquarium. The female laid last year but no success with the eggs. Since I have no inclination of breeding they have been separated and in quarantine. I can say they are smaller to me then normal for a ten year old pair…..But this is a different thread all together. (coming soon)

I know i'm a bit late with the thread(didnt see it till now) but here's an example i've come across. my friend didnt believe me, house 2 redtail babies(about 1.5 yrs old), a baby(6 months) ball python with a 7 year old female ball python. The baby went into the water bowl to soak...so did the 7 year old female. They found the baby dead in the water bowl one morning.

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Originally Posted by RebelYell83

i would just like to add,since we do try to replicate thier natural areas temps and so on,and try to find out how they in the wild,this was one hole

YouTube - Ball pythons in the wild

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I think this depends on the time of year (clearly breeding season where many solitary animals will come together) and the amount of cover in the area.

Stargazer, your animals sound more like lab rats rather than appreciated pets or breeders to me.

Though there is no evidence to back up some of the reasons against housing the animals together, there are also more solid reasons to house them separately than together. If the reason they are housed together is because of money or convenience (I'm not talking about business) then I doesn't sound like the owner should have the animals at all if they are not willing to undergo any circumstance that the animal needs for care despite the money or work. (I am not directing this at the OP in any way, as he intends on making an exhibit later down the road.)

Here are some things to consider though. Yes, you could keep them together and be problem free, but that also depends on what you consider problems or not.
The males seem old enough to breed, as well as that female;are you prepared for babies financially and intellectually?
If one did get an RI for some reason, or had a parasitic problem, would you have enough money to cover all of their vet bills?
What if, by chance, cannibalism were to occur?

Do you have to separate them literally? No.
Should you separate them? Yes.
But this is all my opinion. And I agree with Wes in that, the snakes are perfectly capable of living together and surviving together. That does not guarantee their health and welfare though by any means.

I think, like many others on this forum, that you would not regret separating them. It would add more convenience to feeding, cleaning, and husbandry IMO. I prefer to keep track of what my snakes are doing and what is going on with them. I think this would be difficult in a multiple snake enclosure.

It is our opinions, based off of experience and knowledge of these animals. We can only suggest and add advise. We can't make you do anything.

Also, when I take my class on Animal Behavior next year, I'll make sure to bring up the question of dominance with ball pythons just for you Wes, though I doubt they will know much about ball pythons. :)

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Also, when I take my class on Animal Behavior next year, I'll make sure to bring up the question of dominance with ball pythons just for you Wes, though I doubt they will know much about ball pythons. :)

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Have fun at class!! I'll be doing this first hand.. LAB RATS!!What a joke...

I already have taken that class. It was cool...would have been better if the teacher had known HOW to teach. :rolleyes:

This topic has been done to death, but valid points are always brought up.

No, as far as anyone knows there is no scientific proof against housing snakes together.
Yes, it is a personal choice whether or not to do so.
Yes, MOST snake keepers choose to house their snakes separately for many reasons.
No, the OP is not forced to separate his snakes. No one is.

The reasons for housing separately are mostly for the peace of mind of the keeper. Separate snakes mean easier record keeping of defecations, sheds, feedings, refusals, and the like. It also means less Chance of having to take multiple snakes to the vet if one gets sick, and it means the ability to control breeding. :)
I am sure there are many snake keepers who have housed multiple snakes together and had no problems...even successes. But that is beside the point. The people who house separately, and those who house together, do so because it works well for them and their snakes.

Bottom line: for new snake owners who don't know the little details and the ins and outs of snake keeping, it is most often best for their snakes to be housed separately while they learn.

This should be a sticky. >.>

Regardless of any evidence in favor or against housing bp's together, are you willing to risk the potential consequences in doing? These are wild animals, and no matter how much we think we know our snakes, they can react in ways we don't expect.

Just the fact that vet bills are doubled with housing snakes together turns me off completely to the idea. You may think you're saving some money by only setting up one enclosure. Each person here has already shelled out enough cash on just bp to maintain it's husbandry and needs. I know I sure have, so why skimp on a basic need?

However, if you believe that the pros outweight the cons, go ahead. But that will be the first thing considered as a reason when a thread pops up here about a bp going off feed or being aggressive. The first thing members here ask in a thread like that are the details of the husbandry.

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Originally Posted by stargazer

Have fun at class!! I'll be doing this first hand.. LAB RATS!!What a joke...

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Your treatment of your animals in a 'study' and seeing a possibly dangerous fight amongst the animals and saying for the sake of the 'study' says they are virtually your test subjects and you don't care if they injure each other in the process.
In my opinion, it is on the edge of abuse. Also, what did you do with all of those eggs you received? How big was the female when she laid?

I keep seeing the same few things mentioned over and over.

It's easier to keep them separately.

If one poops or regurges, you won't know which one it is.

It's easier.

IF you don't keep them separately because it's cheaper to keep them together, you don't deserve to have them and, in fact should not have them at all.

It's easier.

If one gets sick, they all will. Can you afford the bill?

It's easier.

If one gets sick is it not likely that the others housed separately have exactly the same chance of getting sick as the ill snake? If they are kept identically, how can you say only one will get sick? How does one get sick to begin with and why would ONLY one get sick even if they were housed separately? Seems to me there's the same chance of all of them getting sick as just one, whether housed together or not once you've got something in your snakes, it's there for groups as well as singles.

The easy part comes up most often. So what some of you seem to be saying is that if someone else doesn't want to do it the way you think it should be done, whether it is because they can't afford more than one set up or just don't want to make one, which frankly is not only no ones business but who the bloody hell are you folks passing judgement on people for not wanting to spend as much as you? Mighty white of you ain't it?

Maybe it's just me, but when one of my snakes poops, I can tell. If one of mine pukes up a meal, I know which one it is. I actually can tell my snakes apart. Maybe those of you who couldn't tell which of several had pooped or which one had regurged (not even getting into WHY it regurged) maybe the fault lies with you for not being able to tell. I mean if I can do it, and many many of you have called me an idiot, to be kind, and if you can't, again, perhaps the fault is closer to home than you want to look.

One final thing. Going back the the who in the bloody hell do some of you think you are thing; DESERVE? Are you serious? You're going to post, here, in public, that YOU get to decide who DESERVES to have ball pythons and who doesn't?

Let me just LOL right here and now.

Wow, the high horses really came in this afternoon. Good thing I've got an industrial size shovel and some extra time.

This is a mess.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I keep seeing the same few things mentioned over and over.

It's easier to keep them separately.

If one poops or regurges, you won't know which one it is.

It's easier.

IF you don't keep them separately because it's cheaper to keep them together, you don't deserve to have them and, in fact should not have them at all.

It's easier.

If one gets sick, they all will. Can you afford the bill?

It's easier.

If one gets sick is it not likely that the others housed separately have exactly the same chance of getting sick as the ill snake? If they are kept identically, how can you say only one will get sick? How does one get sick to begin with and why would ONLY one get sick even if they were housed separately? Seems to me there's the same chance of all of them getting sick as just one, whether housed together or not once you've got something in your snakes, it's there for groups as well as singles.

The easy part comes up most often. So what some of you seem to be saying is that if someone else doesn't want to do it the way you think it should be done, whether it is because they can't afford more than one set up or just don't want to make one, which frankly is not only no ones business but who the bloody hell are you folks passing judgement on people for not wanting to spend as much as you? Mighty white of you ain't it?

Maybe it's just me, but when one of my snakes poops, I can tell. If one of mine pukes up a meal, I know which one it is. I actually can tell my snakes apart. Maybe those of you who couldn't tell which of several had pooped or which one had regurged (not even getting into WHY it regurged) maybe the fault lies with you for not being able to tell. I mean if I can do it, and many many of you have called me an idiot, to be kind, and if you can't, again, perhaps the fault is closer to home than you want to look.

One final thing. Going back the the who in the bloody hell do some of you think you are thing; DESERVE? Are you serious? You're going to post, here, in public, that YOU get to decide who DESERVES to have ball pythons and who doesn't?

Let me just LOL right here and now.

Wow, the high horses really came in this afternoon. Good thing I've got an industrial size shovel and some extra time.

This is a mess.

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Heck, you couldn't even hint that you kept snakes around here two years ago without being hit with some extreme judgement.

I was searching for a thread that was bouncing around a few years ago - if memory serves - it was the one where Jack Spirko made an attempt to point out that sometimes the forum dogma was wrong. The main gist was that housing two snakes together was a generally accepted practice outside of this little group. Boy did he get slammed...........and ridiculed...........

Didn't find it - maybe it got QTd or deleted - maybe someone will remember it and post a link.

I bring it up only in the context that people are now at least able to discuss the issue without being told they are idiots.

This thread is ridiculous. Multiple Ball Pythons should not be hosed together. There are lots of reasons. The biggest issue I see here is breeding. You have a small female that could get bred and suffer because of it. Your bigger female might be ok being bred but, are you ready for eggs? The issues with housing multiple ball pythons together has been beat TO DEATH. Arguments to the contrary fall into two categories. Those who look at the snakes with there mammalian brains and say "oh they look happy" and those that those that are just plain big headed ignorant. If you want to keep your snakes together feel free. If you have any issues with your snakes this forum and anyone in the know will start with "Seperate the snakes".

One last thing. If you want scientific proof then start thinking like a scientist.

Understand that your situation is not the rule, understand that you are wrong until you prove you are right. Sure the accepted wisdom could be wrong, I will not deny the possibility. The burden of proof is on you though. Until you show otherwise, multiple ball pythons should not be housed together. One last time, 4 balls in a tank is not proof that the accepted wisdom is wrong.

Always love this topic. It seems as though almost everyone states as a fact that it is never OK to house BP's together because it is simply against the "rules"... Yet some of the hobby's biggest names have been quoted as saying you can in fact keep ball pythons together. (Dave and Tracey Barker.) Although they did point out that they don't recommend it because it can create some problems (especially for the beginner keeper) that might not happen if kept individually.

I have successfully kept BP's together in the past without issue. It is how I started. I have since separated them just because it is easier for me... Point is don't stand on a soap box and declare that anyone keeping snakes together is wrong or mistreating their animals because this simply isn't necessarily true.

I think it is funny that people always use one of three things to support the idea that BP's must be kept separate,

1.) you never know who poops, who sheds, who regurgitates....

It doesn't take a degree in science to notice when a snake poops. This is true with both the physical look of the snake, and its behavior. But really, who cares if / when a snake poops? as long as you know the snake is parasite free to start with, why does it matter? I have some snakes that regularly poop once a week. I have others that will regularly go a month or two without pooping. I never keep track of when a snake poops any more... it doesn't matter. What are you trying to identify? loose poop? A perfectly healthy snake will still sometimes have a looser stool then other times. as long as you know they are parasite free to start with, your good. with ALL my snakes, I have only had one rodent get spit back up, and that was in the beginning when I fed too big of a meal. But come on, I would think even for a beginner, if you fed the snakes a properly sized meal, it wouldn't be too hard to tell what one puked.

2.) If one snake gets sick they will all get sick....

If your husbandry is correct, and all animals have had proper quarantine and are parasite free, how does this happen? What sickness will one snake mysteriously get that will spread to its cage mates? Please name some specific "sicknesses" that this will happen. Any such sickness that I could think of would also jump from tub to tub in a rack system. So what is the basis of this argument?

3.) If one snake lays on top of another it is domination... it is all bad...

I too would love to see the scientific proof on this. While I do think it is true to a certain extent, I don't think it is nearly as bad as most make it out to be. Sure the snakes might argue over who gets the most comfortable spot, but as long as the husbandry is spot on the snakes will be fine even if they are NOT on the most comfortable spot. It is not a case of one snake hurting or emotionally traumatizing the other snake as many of you seem to think. When I kept my balls together (two females of the same age and size) they would always be on top of one another. They also had access to the same exact hides, temperatures, water, and were fed the same size rodent on the same day every week. As we all know they thermoregulate. Seems simple enough to me. I feed them, they get a full belly, so they both head over to the warm hide and hang for a day or two... then they both go over to the cool side. then they both ate again consistently every week. So please tell me why everyone is so quick to assume this dramatic, dominating power struggle? If this were true, then in the wild, wouldn't the dominated snake leave the burrow to find "peace" somewhere else?

just my 2 cents for what it's worth :D

Just some additional info that the Barkers shared that would benefit the OP..

It generally is NOT a good idea to keep 2 males together because they can fight. (quoting the barkers here, I have never kept males together and have no first had experience with this)

If Ball pythons are kept together, If they are not all adults, they should be about the same size as one another. (again, something the Barkers said... not sure what they were basing this on)

i've seen and heard of cases where a small or baby snake was hurt or killed by an adult accidently. the body weight can trap a baby in the water bowl and result in drowning, i've seen one broken spine incident, and have heard of other mishaps.

perhaps this is what they mean by appropriate sized cagemates?

It shouldn't be done. Think about this: You're significant other or a brother or sister of yours sharing your room with you. You get tired of that person regardless, you fight sometimes and all. That goes the same with any animal. That's just my input.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

This thread is ridiculous. Multiple Ball Pythons should not be hosed together.

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I agree, no animal should be hosed together.

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Originally Posted by Ben Biscy

i've seen and heard of cases where a small or baby snake was hurt or killed by an adult accidently. the body weight can trap a baby in the water bowl and result in drowning, i've seen one broken spine incident, and have heard of other mishaps.

perhaps this is what they mean by appropriate sized cagemates?

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Hence why people who house snakes together should do it intelligently.

Keeping a neonate with an adult should be on the check list of things NOT to do.

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Originally Posted by Neal

It shouldn't be done. Think about this: You're significant other or a brother or sister of yours sharing your room with you. You get tired of that person regardless, you fight sometimes and all. That goes the same with any animal. That's just my input.

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Really, ANY ANIMAL??? That is a bold statement. :confused:

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Originally Posted by Neal

It shouldn't be done. Think about this: You're significant other or a brother or sister of yours sharing your room with you. You get tired of that person regardless, you fight sometimes and all. That goes the same with any animal. That's just my input.

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Apples to oranges.

So, let's take a new direction on this topic. The OP was asking about housing snakes together in general, but used his own enclosure as an example. His tank has males and females together. Also, they are all not the same size. One of them is becoming more aggressive. In this case, I would say that this situation could lead to further problems in the future. So, to the OP, I would consider finding a better housing option for all the snakes such as tubs or a rack.

I know I have no right in forcing the OP to do anything, but I can make a suggestion as to what I would do. I will add I am no expert by any means, this comes from what I have learned here.

I would choose one to stay in the tank. I would choose Cleo because I personally like lloking at the big females. :P And by that I mean I like looking at their enclosure, because a happy bp is a hiding bp.

Then I would go to Walmart/Target/Home Depot/Lowes and get three Sterilite tubs based on the BPs' sizes. A search around the bp husbandry forum will give you a good reference for size. Then I would pick up the necessary supplies for each tub: UTH, water bowl, substrate, hides, etc. Then I would set it all up on a tstat and voila.

Although I have never used tubs myself, I hear they are a ton easier to maintain temperatures and humidity compared to glass tanks. I've done a crapload in keeping my temps right in my 20 gallon. But if you're like me and enjoy watching a seemingly empty tank full of fake plants and jungle themed objects, you could keep a tank for one of the BPs.

This is all just a suggestion. The OP can do whatever he/she wants. Whatever you decide to do, I'm sure all of us would like to see pics and hear about it. :) We just love our pictures here.

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Originally Posted by Neal

It shouldn't be done. Think about this: You're significant other or a brother or sister of yours sharing your room with you. You get tired of that person regardless, you fight sometimes and all. That goes the same with any animal. That's just my input.

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But ball pythons don't have a social structure like we do. You can't project human emotions onto a snake. It's a snake. They don't cuddle, they don't get mad and hold grudges, they don't enjoy being held, etc. They just don't think the same way. There's no valid comparison here.

On the topic at hand, I keep all mine separate mainly because feeding would be a pain otherwise. That's a major drawback to keeping multiple animals together. A really shy snake that would happily eat in the comfort of its own tub may not eat if you have to take it out and put it somewhere else to feed it.

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Originally Posted by mrshawt

I know I have no right in forcing the OP to do anything, but I can make a suggestion as to what I would do. I will add I am no expert by any means, this comes from what I have learned here.

I would choose one to stay in the tank. I would choose Cleo because I personally like lloking at the big females. :P And by that I mean I like looking at their enclosure, because a happy bp is a hiding bp.

Then I would go to Walmart/Target/Home Depot/Lowes and get three Sterilite tubs based on the BPs' sizes. A search around the bp husbandry forum will give you a good reference for size. Then I would pick up the necessary supplies for each tub: UTH, water bowl, substrate, hides, etc. Then I would set it all up on a tstat and voila.

Although I have never used tubs myself, I hear they are a ton easier to maintain temperatures and humidity compared to glass tanks. I've done a crapload in keeping my temps right in my 20 gallon. But if you're like me and enjoy watching a seemingly empty tank full of fake plants and jungle themed objects, you could keep a tank for one of the BPs.

This is all just a suggestion. The OP can do whatever he/she wants. Whatever you decide to do, I'm sure all of us would like to see pics and hear about it. :) We just love our pictures here.

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Thanks, again, MrS

I'm trying to do the best I can for now so I brought the two 10 gallon tanks I had at my mom's. I'm going to put the smallest one (Zelda the female) in one of them so she doesn't get hurt.

And I guess I should put the oldest male in the other 10 gallon?

Cleo has been getting a big better. She lets us pick her up now.

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Originally Posted by aahmn

On the topic at hand, I keep all mine separate mainly because feeding would be a pain otherwise. That's a major drawback to keeping multiple animals together. A really shy snake that would happily eat in the comfort of its own tub may not eat if you have to take it out and put it somewhere else to feed it.

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This could happen to YOU!
Haha :)

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Originally Posted by midtx350z

Thanks, again, MrS

I'm trying to do the best I can for now so I brought the two 10 gallon tanks I had at my mom's. I'm going to put the smallest one in one of them so she doesn't get hurt.

And I guess I should put the oldest male in the other 10 gallon?

Cleo has been getting a big better. She lets us pick her up now.

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I'd say put the two smallest two in the two 10 gallons. Babies and juvies like the enclosed space, and a 10g would fit their size better. The largest two can each have a 20g. Unless Cleo gets to Godzilla size, you shouldn't need more than a 20. My 1400g female loves her new 20L and hated the old 40g.

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Originally Posted by mrshawt

I'd say put the two smallest two in the two 10 gallons. Babies and juvies like the enclosed space, and a 10g would fit their size better. The largest two can each have a 20g. Unless Cleo gets to Godzilla size, you shouldn't need more than a 20. My 1400g female loves her new 20L and hated the old 40g.

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The two largest are Cleo (fem) and Caesar (male) though... Would that cause a problem? I guess I could look around for another 10 gal to put him in.

I'd end up with 3 10 gals and a 40 gal. I'd find a way to make everything look nice though. And they should all be happy by themselves.

Do you have a scale to measure the weight of Caesar? It's hard to judge age by length unfortunately.

If you keep the 40g, I would recommend stuffing it with fake plants and identical hides so she can feel secure.

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Originally Posted by mrshawt

Do you have a scale to measure the weight of Caesar? It's hard to judge age by length unfortunately.

If you keep the 40g, I would recommend stuffing it with fake plants and identical hides so she can feel secure.

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I don't have a scale.

What do you think of the upside down pot that's in there. Should we change it to something else since we're going to have to get two identical hides for Cleo? It's pretty big, she can coil up in there but of course she's not being hugged by it from any side. Is there one you recommend for a snake her size?

It's hard to tell from her length. Most kitchen scales are perfect for weighing snakes in grams.
This is a really informative thread about hide sizes that are cheap.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Your treatment of your animals in a 'study' and seeing a possibly dangerous fight amongst the animals and saying for the sake of the 'study' says they are virtually your test subjects and you don't care if they injure each other in the process.
In my opinion, it is on the edge of abuse. Also, what did you do with all of those eggs you received? How big was the female when she laid?

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I chopped off there heads. They where only normals...:taz:

i've had 2 ball pythons together since birth and now there 8 years old and huge and never had a problem they are healthy and never refused a meal

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Originally Posted by midtx350z

I don't have a scale.

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Yo, grab them while they're hot! I have the same one, and while the instruction manual is crap, it's real easy to use.

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Originally Posted by mrshawt

Yo, grab them while they're hot! I have the same one, and while the instruction manual is crap, it's real easy to use.

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Hell yeah promote them cheap thangs. I think im gonna glue a bowl onto the scale...I just got 2 monstrous females but they move the bowl around so they weigh anywhere between 1480 and 1620 grams. :D

The OP is a great example of why this forum and many keepers stick with the blanket statement of "one snake per enclosure" I don't think anyone is saying that there are no circumstances where multiple ball pythons could be housed together successfully. The point is that people who read these posts read something like this.

Well yes ball pythons can be housed together but only when.....

Many people see the "Yes" and put the snakes together. The OP has two males and two females of various sizes. If we turned this into a poll on whether or not the OP's setup is a good one or not, I think most people are going to say this setup is bad. Now people can do what they want to do, but this is exactly why people tend to be one sided with their advice.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

The OP is a great example of why this forum and many keepers stick with the blanket statement of "one snake per enclosure" I don't think anyone is saying that there are no circumstances where multiple ball pythons could be housed together successfully. The point is that people who read these posts read something like this.

Well yes ball pythons can be housed together but only when.....

Many people see the "Yes" and put the snakes together. The OP has two males and two females of various sizes. If we turned this into a poll on whether or not the OP's setup is a good one or not, I think most people are going to say this setup is bad. Now people can do what they want to do, but this is exactly why people tend to be one sided with their advice.

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Thanks, I came here to get help since I'm obviously not an expert and wanted advice from pros. I need to go buy some UTH soon to put the small snakes in the 10 gal tanks.

BTW, I almost died a few hours ago. I had never eaten baby carrots before, and aparently I'm allergic to them. There was no allergy medicine to be found and I could barely swallow my own saliva. Thank god one of the technicians found prescription allegra in his truck. :tears:

Snakes can be kept more than one per enclosure. It just takes time, forethought, preparation and knowledge of the species chosen.

I wouldn't put a ball with a king cobra, however :colbert:.

I see a lot of references to "breeders do it this way". Breeders use one snake per tub because it helps them accurately keep records on all of their snakes. Also, the tubs they use aren't big enough for more than one snake to cram into...

Chris

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Originally Posted by midtx350z

Thanks, I came here to get help since I'm obviously not an expert and wanted advice from pros. I need to go buy some UTH soon to put the small snakes in the 10 gal tanks.

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I did not mean that as an attack on you. My point was that this happens on the forum all the time.

Step 1.
Someone asks about or posts something showing more than one snake in the same enclosure.

Step 2.
Someone says "you shouldn't keep more than one snake in an enclosure"

Step 3.
People start going on and on and on about how its perfectly ok to keep more than one snake in an enclosure and how everyone who says otherwise is just regurgitating nonsense.

Step 4.
The OP tells us a little more and we find out that they really shouldn't be keeping more than one snake in an enclosure for some good reason or another.

The point is that if you are keeping two or more snakes together and everything is fine then that's great. But the second you have a problem such as not feeding, surprise eggs that are really not a surprise, two sick snakes or some other issue that could have been prevented by keeping them in separate enclosures and you ask about it in a forum post, you are are going to be told to split them up as step one.

Again midtx350z I am not attacking you. It just really seams like you should split them up when you get a chance. On a lighter note. The snakes all look great and glad you didn't die from a baby carrot. Hate to have "Lived a full life only to be cut down by a baby carrot" on your tomb stone.

I'm wondering about this "eggs before she's ready thing" I keep seeing.

Has it occurred to ANY of you that if a female ovulates, even if it's only one or two eggs, that SHE is obviously ready and able to do so or she WOULDN'T produce follicles to begin with.

MAYBE some of you, unbeknownst to your own selves, are simply greedy. If she only lays one or two eggs, the she surely must not be ready to breed because if we wait another year or two she'll lay, what, 4 or 5 or 6 eggs? What's an average clutch? 5?

So, if a girl can successfully lay 2 eggs, and it doesn't affect her detrimentally, what's the problem? She's young? Well, she produced the follicles so obviously she's old enough.

She will lay MORE eggs if you wait longer. Hmmmmm, she's ready now, but will only lay a couple of eggs. Not much chance of profit or playing the odds there. BUT, if you wait, she'll lay a larger clutch will will not only enhance your chances of getting the combo you want, but will......heh, will what? Other than increasing your odds on a combo or profit by laying more eggs, what is the benefit to the female to wait?

But, I suppose as long as all those experts out there, having produced one or two or no clutches at all, know far better than the snakes themselves what is healthy for them.

I'm not advocating the breeding of small or young females but I am saying that all this crap about how dangerous it is to have a small female "lay an unexpected clutch" is just that, crap. If she's able then she's ready or she is not suitable for further contributions to the gene pool in which case nature will weed her out and solve the problem.

How many 4000g females do you suppose there are in the wild that breed? How many in the 1200g range? I bet there are WAY more small females breeding in the wild than large. I don't reckon there are a whole lot of 9, 10, 12 egg clutches from wild females but can easily imagine a bunch of 3 and 4 egg batches.

I just don't see that particular argument as valid.

I haven't read this entire thread, just stating my opinion. That tank is too small for four snakes, especially ones that size. And even if you haven't had issues in the past, it's always best to house everyone separately. I've seen a lot of people use the argument "well they cuddle in the hide together, so they must be friends!" That is not the case. They're only in there together because that's the ideal place to be, the extra bodies are just in the way.

All of my snakes are housed separately in terrariums until I get a rack system built. I wanted to start mine at the beginning of this month but was delayed. I'm anxious to get the ball rolling because five terrariums take up a LOT of space!

So if a 10 year old girl gets pregnant and has a baby successfully, then that's okay too?

Sure, as long as a 6 month old dog goes into heat and gets pregnant first go around, that's ok... 6 month old cat, sure...

When animals get gravid/pregnant what have you, too early, it's detrimental to their growth and can stunt them. I've had it happen in rats and have seen it happen alot when breeders breed them at 3-4 months old when the animal isn't even done growing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Egapal

On a lighter note. The snakes all look great and glad you didn't die from a baby carrot. Hate to have "Lived a full life only to be cut down by a baby carrot" on your tomb stone.

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:8:

Thanks, nah I didn't take it as a personal attack I just wanted to make my point clear. I appreciate you taking the time to reply.

Ok, I think we've fixed the problem for now. I'll post pics when I get home.

Can't wait to find out what you did. :gj:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/1319/dsc03721l.jpg

Well this is gonna have to work for now. The two boys are in the bottom one, and the small girl is in the top one. Cleo is in the big one.

We still need to work on the large display to split up all of them. Cleo seems a bit happier now. She's been calming down little by little. The other three are chill as always, they all ate rats yesterday, they're digesting them right now.

:snake:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

So if a 10 year old girl gets pregnant and has a baby successfully, then that's okay too?

Sure, as long as a 6 month old dog goes into heat and gets pregnant first go around, that's ok... 6 month old cat, sure...

When animals get gravid/pregnant what have you, too early, it's detrimental to their growth and can stunt them. I've had it happen in rats and have seen it happen alot when breeders breed them at 3-4 months old when the animal isn't even done growing.

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I actually have a theory about this in ball pythons, and I plan to test it. I'll compare the growth rates and clutch sizes of females first bred at 2000 grams, 1500 grams, and 1200 grams. I'll also compare females over 1000 grams bred at age 1 (harder to find), age 2, age 3, and age 4.

Yes, it's not going to be this year, but probably in more like 4 or 5 years. If no one else does it in the meantime, I'll do it.

The premise of the theory will be, ball pythons, like some other animals, have their growth and future productivity negatively effected by being bred when they are too small, though actual age does not matter.

The above testing should show some evidence for or against the idea. I will have to use a fairly large number of animals, and record averages, as obviously genetics and other factors can be involved.

If I turn out to be wrong, that will be significant too, and may change the way breeders manage their snakes. If I wind up with evidence supporting the theory, it will be a confirmation of what most breeders are assuming.

In the meantime, to play it safe, I first breed my female snakes at 1500 grams, and not a gram less.