Big snakes, small enclosures.

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Originally Posted by jp-reptiles

i am sure that franykeno and dsirkle did see that too small enclosures but protecting him cause the want to kiss his butt and because they like him i think, their are 100 pics and movies online to prove that brian keeps alot of his giants in too small enclosures...........

regards ''jp''

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I think that you need to be very careful about the accusations that you choose to make here, especially when it is meant to discredit or disrespect any member of staff. Consider this a warning.

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Where in the TOS does it say we can't "aggressively confront" the mods? I never see you guys give people warnings when they talk like this to other users... but because you are a mod you have the right to do this? Or am I misunderstanding?

YouTube - The Song That Doesn't End

Really people drop it. Look, if you don't agree with how Brian keeps his larger Boids, don't buy from him, don't support him. And just leave it be.

I respect Brian, he has done great things for our hobby. He is one of the pioneers. Do you really think he is the only one who keeps his large boids in tubs as such? So why pick his husbandry skills apart? Because you noticed something that rubbed you the wrong way on snakebytes? Get over it...go watch the other episodes and learn something.

As for the admins...this site is hands down the best forum I am a member of...no butt kissing...I applaud them for some of the idiots :rolleyes: they have to put up with. I know I wouldn't be able to do it without losing my cool.

This thread is going on and on and on....there are obviously two sides to this discussion. Neither are going to agree so move on.

Geeze...

For the record the mods here DO give the same warnings to regular members....I have the expired infraction points to prove it;)
I belong to lots of forums, and this one is the very best IMO when it comes to staff. They are helpful, fair, knowledgeable and always treat people with the respect that they deserve.

You guys have to realize that the original poster comes from a country where there are different ideals and beliefs, especially within this hobby. Many Euro keepers prefer larger naturalistic vivs compared to a rack system, and there are different care standards that are the "norm".

Also, how well can a 15ft snake thermoregulate in a 5-6ft cage? In my opinion not that well. I know Brian said that he is getting 8ft FB racks, and that will definitely be much better for the larger animals, hopefully it happens sooner than later.

I have my opinions about the situation, but I'm not going to say how Brian keeps his large snakes is wrong, or that he's unethical, it's just a different way to keep something. Personally I would prefer to see a snake that size in an enclosure with a much larger floor space (even so than a 8x2), so it can actually choose to thermoregulate or stretch out fully.

Just my two cents though.

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i am sure that franykeno and dsirkle did see that too small enclosures but protecting him cause the want to kiss his butt and because they like him i think, their are 100 pics and movies online to prove that brian keeps alot of his giants in too small enclosures...........

regards ''jp''

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Originally Posted by DutchHerp

Where in the TOS does it say we can't "aggressively confront" the mods? I never see you guys give people warnings when they talk like this to other users... but because you are a mod you have the right to do this? Or am I misunderstanding?

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Since you asked:

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16. No posts or private messages may be made or sent with the express intent to antagonize or discredit the staff. Violation may result in your account being placed immediately on moderated status and/or permanent ban.

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JP made a very clear accusation that my staff was somehow "protecting" Brian or kissing his butt, when in fact, they were sharing their own experiences on this topic and have no reason to lie or "kiss up" to ANYONE. Not only that - he accused them of lying as well.

JP didn't choose to call out any other person in this accusation that was also defending Brian, he chose to single out the staff members when making this accusation.

So yes, he did choose to try to discredit the moral compass of two well respected staff members when he publically called them liars and accused them of having an alterior motive for their posts. He didn't "aggressively confront", he made very clear cut accusations in an attempt to discredit them and their posts in this thread.

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Disrespect Toward Staff -- 50 pts
Open disrespect toward any staff member, especially with the intent to undermine their authority or damage their credibility.

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Hello all,

Just joined this forum, after perusing it for awhile. This subject is very important to me, as I can't seem to understand why breeders, with all of that money at their disposal, who can get tax write offs from constructing enclosures, choose to keep their giants in these god awful tubs. It's easy. It's inexpensive. Blah, blah. You've got nothing to do all day but take care of your animals, it's your job. Do it right.

Anyone who says these snakes don't need room and don't move have obviously never kept giants (or have much interaction with any of their snakes). If you have a giant, open the cage and leave it open. You will quickly see how much they like to move, and how often they do so. Now I am not actually recommending the mass release of giant snakes, just trying to make a point. Same holds true for any snake. Why do we try so hard to make our enclosures escape-proof? Because they will move...

Chris

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Originally Posted by mumps

Hello all,

Just joined this forum, after perusing it for awhile. This subject is very important to me, as I can't seem to understand why breeders, with all of that money at their disposal, who can get tax write offs from constructing enclosures, choose to keep their giants in these god awful tubs. It's easy. It's inexpensive. Blah, blah. You've got nothing to do all day but take care of your animals, it's your job. Do it right.

Anyone who says these snakes don't need room and don't move have obviously never kept giants (or have much interaction with any of their snakes). If you have a giant, open the cage and leave it open. You will quickly see how much they like to move, and how often they do so. Now I am not actually recommending the mass release of giant snakes, just trying to make a point. Same holds true for any snake. Why do we try so hard to make our enclosures escape-proof? Because they will move...

Chris

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Your posts shows a lack of understanding of business. The profit margine on raising snakes is very low. What makes you think they have a tremendous amount of money at their disposal. If a business sells 3 million dollars worth of snakes that means nothing if the cost of running that business is 2,970,000 dollars. Businesses have to take what little profit they do have at the end of the year and balance making money personally with growing the business. You make it sounds like taking care of animals is fun. My family has raised horses for generations. I have not carried on the tradition. You know why? There is no money in it, its 7 days a week. Although it is rewarding and some days are fun, there are only so many times you can do the same thing before its not fun anymore. Its work.

Although I would agree that Brian's giants need more room you have to remember that he realizes it too. He is working on it. You are transferring your human emotions to reptiles. You should be very careful when doing so. Animals and children want to run across the road without looking for traffic. What they appear to want to your eyes is not necessarily whats best for them. Go to your local mom and pop pet store and ask for a feeder mouse. Now try this at 10 other pet stores. Look at all of the conditions that all of the animals live in. Not everyone can live up to the standards that everyone else sets. Lets be happy that Brian takes such excellent care of his animals. Lets be thankful that he admits on camera that he needs bigger enclosures. He is truly one of the better ones.

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Originally Posted by zackw419

See, that's my point.

Just because a snake can survive in a tub that size doesn't mean you shouldn't provide it the space to roam when it wants to. Even if infrequent.

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do you lets your animals roam free, and let them go where ever they want when they want? do you let them go outside anytime they want?

im betting you keep them in some sort of enclosure and like you said just cause they can survive in a space that size doesnt mean you should.

The reason high end breeders like brian and some of the other top guys keep animals in racks like this is because of the number of animals they have. Its very easy for brian to go into the large snake room and slide a tub open pull the large snake from the tub spray it and clean it and put it right back in. As to where I have 6 foot visions that open in the front I actually have to crawl into my cages when cleaning and scrub against the back walls. Which takes a longer amount of time. Its just when you have the number of animals brian has its alot easier to keep them in racks. It takes me 10-15 minutes to clean on of my racks but I have a stack of 6 foot visions from the floor to the ceiling and it takes me an hour to pull everyone out and clean those things. Ive looked into fb racks for my large snakes but I just dont feel comfortable keeping a large snake in them I like to know mine are locked away and it seems to me that a snake that size could push a rack like that open. I talked with the guy from fb and he is suppose to be sending me pics of someway they lock those things.

BUt regarding the other post. I do believe brian does make a decent living off breeding his reptiles. And im sure he doesnt mind cleaning cages. If he didnt like cleaning cages he wouldnt have thousands of snakes. He does have the luxury though of being able to afford to hire help to clean them. I would of loved to seen when it was just him and lori. I bet they were tired all the time.

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Originally Posted by Denial

He does have the luxury though of being able to afford to hire help to clean them. I would of loved to seen when it was just him and lori. I bet they were tired all the time.

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I know that you ment this post as a defense of Brian but I have to comment on one thing. It is not a luxury to hire help. Its a necessity. Have you ever gotten sick. I mean ever. At least once every year or two I have a day when I am just useless. Ever had an accident that made you unable to walk, or only have the use of one arm. Ever have a family member in the hospital. Ever have to go away from town for a day or two for an emergency. Its not like Brian can ask his neighbors to come care for his animals. With a quarter the animals Brian has its just plan irresponsible not to have help, above and beyond his wife. A person can only work so many hours before they work themselves into getting sick. Reptiles are more forgiving but even so animals can not wait for you to recover. The overhead for running a business is tremendous and you can't assume that Brian has the means to run to the phone or computer and buy new enclosures on a whim, not to mention the space requirements, setup, heating, cleaning concerns.

Again I am writing this to the people who think that just because Brian has a large operation he is rolling in cash. I live in an area with a lot of family farms. Many of the family's have multiple millions in income each year and struggle to save a dime for retirement, kids education, or dare to dream a vacation. You just can not judge someone unless you know all the facts, and non of us do.

I didnt say I was judging anyone. But to own that number of snakes, those types of enclosures, that number of employees, be able to tape a live show every week trust me I doubt very seriously he is strapped for cash. He may not be rolling in it but hes not loosing it either

I didn't mention Brian by name in my post. I also didn't say he was "rolling in cash". I said if he chose to provide larger enclosures, a portion of the cost would be tax deductible. That saves money.

If you can't take care of something properly, don't keep it.

Chris

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Originally Posted by DutchHerp

Well I think the tubs are too small, but he even keeps large monitors in tubs... that's unacceptable, IMO.

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Just thought I would let everyone know. I had contacted Brian awhile back inquiring about his Sav's and how he keeps/breeds them. He told me he doesn't keep them in tubs, they have custom built enclosures. I don't remember the dimensions as I used an email account I no longer have, but rest assured his animals are properly kept. Also another point snakes don't generally need exercise. Most snakes have a very small range in the wild and don't move that much unless hunting for food. A python or boa kept in tubs I believe is acceptable, the problem with most keepers is over feeding and obesity or just poor heat and humidity levels. Another thing is a lot of snakes spend most of their time in dark hiding spots, so does that make keeping snakes in glass cages inhumane? They are more comfortable and calm kept in a setup where they are hidden. If it is all about what is best for the animals, people need to look at their natural behavior and keep them accordingly. Just my two cents.

Brian has been doing this longer than most of the people on this forum, he is one of the leading reptile keepers/breeders. He knows what is best for the animal and does what is needed. Also with large collections like he has, it is next to impossible to keep all of his animals in cages. Just think of the space he would need, he wouldn't be able to keep up and it would kill his business. I am sure you can contact any of the large giant snake breeders and they will tell you they keep them similarly.

He also shows monitors in these tubs, and says they are "feeding tubs". Yet we are never shown their actual enclosures...

As a keeper of large varanids, this is atrocious.

Chris

mumps my post wasnt directed towards you.

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Originally Posted by waltah!

I'm curious to know if anyone has notified Brian regarding this.

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I sent him a pm yesterday, and e-mailed on his website. I know he's been on since then becuase he has posted. I'm sorry guys, but it's hard to fight for someone who won't fight for themselves.

However, complaining about it on here isn't going to solve anything. All we are doing is attacking each other. WHERE IS THE LOVE PEOPLE!! :P

I'm sorry, on a more serious note, someone try and get ahold of him to see if he has anything to say.

I've followed this thread for a bit and I just have this to say...

I am appalled at what some of you guys are saying about Brian. I don't keep any giants but I do keep Blood Pythons that get a decent size. These guys jut don't need a real big enclosure.

The fact that he keeps his animals in 6 foot cages at the moment shouldn't make a difference. The man has already stated he is going to be ordering 8 foot cages, realizing his 6 footers are too small. Problem solved!!

Some of you say that because you haven't seen an animals "home", and only its "feeding tub" that Brian deserves a bullet for animal cruelty. Shut your mouth, and call they guy up and talk to him personally. Better yet, go visit his facility and see what he does, instead of basing your facts on what you have or haven't seen in a WEEKLY video he is producing FOR YOU!

It makes me so sick to hear people that share common interests to BASH each other. What the hell is wrong with some of you? As if we don't have enough pressure and fights coming from special interests groups and the government! Now we're fighting amongst ourselves?

Grow up people.

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Originally Posted by wishexotics

If it is all about what is best for the animals, people need to look at their natural behavior and keep them accordingly. Just my two cents.

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Show me the research that shows a snake has a natural home range of 3 square feet...

Chris

ps - V. albigularis has a natural home range of 3 sq. km.

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

I sent him a pm yesterday, and e-mailed on his website. I know he's been on since then becuase he has posted. I'm sorry guys, but it's hard to fight for someone who won't fight for themselves.

However, complaining about it on here isn't going to solve anything. All we are doing is attacking each other. WHERE IS THE LOVE PEOPLE!! :P

I'm sorry, on a more serious note, someone try and get ahold of him to see if he has anything to say.

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You have to keep in mind that when you send Brian a PM he probably has 50 new ones sitting there when he logs on. He is on every Wed to post for Snakebytestv, but he also posts for it everywhere else as well. To say it's "tough to fight for someone who won't fight for themselves" is a bit much. He may very well still be unaware of this thread. BTW, i'm not attacking your post i'm just trying to make a point.

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Originally Posted by DutchHerp

And with all due respect, why should JP treat you mods any different than other people on the forum. What are you, the Aristocrats of BP.net? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by DutchHerp

Where in the TOS does it say we can't "aggressively confront" the mods? I never see you guys give people warnings when they talk like this to other users... but because you are a mod you have the right to do this? Or am I misunderstanding?

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I think at this point you just want to stir up so I will make it clear again just in case you missed it on the previous page.

Baseless ACCUSATIONS are not confrontation or disagreement.

Accusing the staff in such a manner without any proof is nothing nore than an attempt to discredit the staff and it violates the TOS he agreed on, upon registering, so did YOU by the way.

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16. No posts or private messages may be made or sent with the express intent to antagonize or discredit the staff. Violation may result in your account being placed immediately on moderated status and/or permanent ban.

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Before you answer I would encourage you to read the TOS again

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/a...t.php?f=89&a=9

I will ask it again since some of you seem so concern about the well being of those animals. Did any of you talk to Brian about your concerns :confused: or are you only capable of posting on a forum behind someone's back?

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Originally Posted by waltah!

You have to keep in mind that when you send Brian a PM he probably has 50 new ones sitting there when he logs on. He is on every Wed to post for Snakebytestv, but he also posts for it everywhere else as well. To say it's "tough to fight for someone who won't fight for themselves" is a bit much. He may very well still be unaware of this thread. BTW, i'm not attacking your post i'm just trying to make a point.

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Yes, your right. I'm sure he's plenty busy. I'm just being impatient. It would be nice to put this thing to rest once in for all. I'm ready for a lock, but he deserves a chance.

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Originally Posted by waltah!

For the record the mods here DO give the same warnings to regular members....I have the expired infraction points to prove it;)

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Ditto on that. I think we have a few matched sets. :)

I wonder why any of you think Brian owes you anything.

If I were Brian I may just ignore the lot of you, just let you sit on your thumbs and spin to your heart's content.

Back when I kept large burms I was in the same room with them 8 to 12 hours a day at least 5 days a week. I produced a LOT of burms. I also recall them moving very little.

Some of you guys, you experts with little to no personal experience, need to realize that while you may well have an opinion, you have no basis, no right, to tell someone how to keep their snakes and lizards.

All these doggone high horses have left quite a mess around here. I ASSume those of you who rode them in will now be cleaning up after them.

I dont think brian needs to respond to anything. How he keeps his animals is his business. Just like how everyone keeps there animals is there business. Ive met people with water monitors they keep in the bathroom and anacondas they keep in closests with no heat. I dont think thats safe but thats m.o. Brian is a very busy man and im sure he doesnt have time to respond to all of us. This same thread though ahs popped up on a few forums and im sure hes seen at least one of them bashing his cages. I remember when the video of the nile in the tub came out there was quite a few people that were bashing him on numerous threads for seeing that so im sure hes aware of all that but he cant please everyone no one can and its not his problem to please everyone. Those are his snakes and he will house them the way he wants. Alot of people may not like it but I dont like seeing people walking around the mall with ball pythons wrapped around there wrists but I see it everyweekend. And seeing people carry burms down the sidewalk. Even saw a guy with a redtail boa wrapped around the front of his trusck driving down the road at the beach last week. but thats there snakes and they can do with them what they please. I never rode in here on a horse. IM not to fond of horses lol. But there will always be people arguing over what size tank they think is right and some people think that is they breed for you then they are happy and healthy but as I stated earlier you could lock me in a closest for the rest of my life and feed me and stick a naked chick in there and I would breed with her and still live. Now I may not enjoy being stuck in a closest all my life but I would survive lol

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

I sent him a pm yesterday, and e-mailed on his website. I know he's been on since then becuase he has posted. I'm sorry guys, but it's hard to fight for someone who won't fight for themselves.

However, complaining about it on here isn't going to solve anything. All we are doing is attacking each other. WHERE IS THE LOVE PEOPLE!! :P

I'm sorry, on a more serious note, someone try and get ahold of him to see if he has anything to say.

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If I were Brian, I wouldn't bother to respond to forum gossip either, where he's already been charged, tried and convicted by some of the participants.

What could he possibly have to gain from it, besides being accused of lying by those who have already chosen not to go straight to the source but have chosen instead to gossip on an internet forum about him?

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Originally Posted by Denial

as I stated earlier you could lock me in a closest for the rest of my life and feed me and stick a naked chick in there and I would breed with her and still live. Now I may not enjoy being stuck in a closest all my life but I would survive lol

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Thanks for that, Danny:8:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

If I were Brian, I wouldn't bother to respond to forum gossip either, where he's already been charged, tried and convicted by some of the participants.

What could he possibly have to gain from it, besides being accused of lying by those who have already chosen not to go straight to the source but have chosen instead to gossip on an internet forum about him?

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Yes, I suppose your right. With an operation that big, your bound to have a little negativity. :) I would love to tour his facility. I can only hope I get the opportunity someday.

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Originally Posted by Denial

I dont think brian needs to respond to anything. How he keeps his animals is his business. Just like how everyone keeps there animals is there business. Ive met people with water monitors they keep in the bathroom and anacondas they keep in closests with no heat. I dont think thats safe but thats m.o. Brian is a very busy man and im sure he doesnt have time to respond to all of us. This same thread though ahs popped up on a few forums and im sure hes seen at least one of them bashing his cages. I remember when the video of the nile in the tub came out there was quite a few people that were bashing him on numerous threads for seeing that so im sure hes aware of all that but he cant please everyone no one can and its not his problem to please everyone. Those are his snakes and he will house them the way he wants. Alot of people may not like it but I dont like seeing people walking around the mall with ball pythons wrapped around there wrists but I see it everyweekend. And seeing people carry burms down the sidewalk. Even saw a guy with a redtail boa wrapped around the front of his trusck driving down the road at the beach last week. but thats there snakes and they can do with them what they please. I never rode in here on a horse. IM not to fond of horses lol. But there will always be people arguing over what size tank they think is right and some people think that is they breed for you then they are happy and healthy but as I stated earlier you could lock me in a closest for the rest of my life and feed me and stick a naked chick in there and I would breed with her and still live. Now I may not enjoy being stuck in a closest all my life but I would survive lol

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You however, unless you are from the midwest, LOL, were not designed for a sedentary lifestyle. Big pythons were.

See the difference there?

Comparing mammalian needs with reptilian needs is valuable to this discussion how?

BTW, not all three or four of the people you see on youtube is all of his help. Bryan spends (from his own mouth on his skits) most of his day in the office returning calls and emails.

If you've ever been near the guy when he isn't working, his phone literally rings NON STOP, and that was before this huge popularity boost in his videos.

He has a crew of people working for him daily, every single day of the week. Lori is an awesome woman and does the heavy lifting in regards to managing the care of the animals and crew.

Again, I am so disgusted to see these really wild accusations, even ones that Bryan himself has already answered (i.e. Monitor feeding).

Should we make a magazine? The BB (Big breeders) weekly? Where people with no life and full of spite go around and judge what the big guys do during the week? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

You however, unless you are from the midwest, LOL, were not designed for a sedentary lifestyle. Big pythons were.

See the difference there?

Comparing mammalian needs with reptilian needs is valuable to this discussion how?

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Im just saying that noone knows exactly how much space a snake needs. But they can live and breed in tubs. Humans could live and breed in closests we wouldnt like it but my point is we could survive with it. Alot of people dont think big snakes like to move but reticulated pythons for instance are VERY active snakes. They enjoy climbing and roaming and everything my retics NEVER stay still my burms are completly different Ive had chloe in a 6 foot vision for over 2 years and Ive seen her on the opposite side once a week to get her food from me. My retics on the other hand pace back and forth there cages all the time. buts it not convient to have huge cages when you have a certain amount of snakes.

Thanks waltah glad someone got a laugh out of that is was meant to lighten things up lol.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

BTW, not all three or four of the people you see on youtube is all of his help. Bryan spends (from his own mouth on his skits) most of his day in the office returning calls and emails.

If you've ever been near the guy when he isn't working, his phone literally rings NON STOP, and that was before this huge popularity boost in his videos.

He has a crew of people working for him daily, every single day of the week. Lori is an awesome woman and does the heavy lifting in regards to managing the care of the animals and crew.

Again, I am so disgusted to see these really wild accusations, even ones that Bryan himself has already answered (i.e. Monitor feeding).

Should we make a magazine? The BB (Big breeders) weekly? Where people with no life and full of spite go around and judge what the big guys do during the week? :rolleyes:

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There are some real scumbag breeders out there and I don't really see a problem with the initial query here.

The problem is the ASSumption by some that THEY know better.

Brian is a good guy, has always been a good guy and should, because of that long standing goodguyness, not have to put up with nonsense like unfounded accusations from well meaning but knowledge lacking people.

Sigh.

Folks, reputation is important. If 30 people, 27 of whom have excellent reputations and 3 of whom have good ones but personalities that are abrasive yet all agree that someone not in that group is not only a good guy but doing things in at the minimum an acceptable, if not above necessary manner, chances are good that you, if you think all 30 are wrong, are yourself in error.

It's ok to be wrong, it's fine to question. The thing is, when you don't know as much as those who are telling you you're wrong, you need to double check your original assertions and make adjustments to your knowledge based on what you have learned from those who know more than you.

Just because you know how to use YouTube does not make you an expert. Reading a caresheet written by someone who once read a caresheet, does not make you an expert. Knowing a guy who keeps his burm a certain way, does not make you an expert.

Years of experience. Successful successive breeding. Healthy animals. Satisfied customers. Actual knowledge. THESE things make you an expert.

There's a reason 4th graders don't teach college English.

Can you figure out what it is? The same applies here.

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Originally Posted by Denial

Im just saying that noone knows exactly how much space a snake needs. But they can live and breed in tubs. Humans could live and breed in closests we wouldnt like it but my point is we could survive with it. Alot of people dont think big snakes like to move but reticulated pythons for instance are VERY active snakes. They enjoy climbing and roaming and everything my retics NEVER stay still my burms are completly different Ive had chloe in a 6 foot vision for over 2 years and Ive seen her on the opposite side once a week to get her food from me. My retics on the other hand pace back and forth there cages all the time. buts it not convient to have huge cages when you have a certain amount of snakes.

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Perhaps there is a lack in your keeping.

I've kept retics, never had one bigger than about 22 ft, but once they hit the 12 to 14 foot mark they were markedly less active. Maybe yours are hungry.

You may want to rethink your closet analogy too. Without sunlight most diurnal mammals would not last long for more reasons than need discourse here and now.

Again, comparing mammals to reptiles is adding value how?

Well if you keep or kept retics you would know they are ALWAYS hungry. No matter how you feed them. I feed my animals weekly so they do have belly fulls but if offered they would take more without a second look.

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Originally Posted by Denial

Well if you keep or kept retics you would know they are ALWAYS hungry. No matter how you feed them. I feed my animals weekly so they do have belly fulls but if offered they would take more without a second look.

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So said by the expert.

Gotcha.

Whoa! This is going in a bad direction. I think the op has his answer. Are the enclosures in question small? Yes. Obviously he has/is going to change them. There is nothing we can do about it.

His animals are beautiful, and not looking like they are taking damage. So are Denial's.

:lockd: Please :)

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Originally Posted by wilomn

You may want to rethink your closet analogy too. Without sunlight most diurnal mammals would not last long for more reasons than need discourse here and now.

Again, comparing mammals to reptiles is adding value how?

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Wilomn makes a point that I guess can just not be made enough. Comparing people to snakes is very misleading. But for the sake of argument lets look at people. People are routinely put in prisons where they are given what they need to be physically and mentally healthy (at least as much as they were before prison).

Many people choose to live in boxes no bigger than 1000 to 2000 square feet with ceilings sometimes only 8 to 10 feet high. Often its hard to get humans out of these boxes and if they do come out, its not for long. Humans will scurry from one box to another and seam perfectly happy. Thats what humans need/want to be happy. If you have a problem with keeping animals in captivity that's one thing, but if you have a problem keeping certain species of animal in a specific enclosure you best have a lot of experience with that specific species before you attack someones reputation.

wilomn

Im by no means an expert and never ever said anything that I was. However you can ask anyone that keeps retics they are active pythons.

A full snake, is a lazy snake. Process of digestion.

I dont like arguing and this seems to be where this post is heading. I agree with stratus the op has his answer from both sides. Every one is intitled to there opinion I support everyones opinions. I do agree a full snake is a lazy snake but "in my experience" With my reticulated pythons they are never lazy. Once again I would like to point out thats in my experience with "my retics". Everyone have a good day! Im going to clean cages. Maybe snap some new pics to post!

Danny

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Originally Posted by wilomn

So said by the expert.

Gotcha.

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Cmon now. It feels like your pushing for a shove.

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Originally Posted by Denial

Maybe snap some new pics to post!

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Don't tease me like that Danny! Let's see some of those "underfed" beauties!!

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

:lockd: Please :)

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no.

There is nothing wrong with debate and discussion.

A full snake is a lazy snake?

Well, it's a load of crap is what it is, literally as well as figuratively.

Lazy is a human condition, not a reptilian one.

A content snake, a snake with no need to be on the hunt, a snake warm and secure is................oh, of course, lazy.

I've no doubt Denial keeps his snakes in good conditions.

I agree that he is not an expert.

I don't keep retics and I am no expert. I am around a friend's retics. They are still pretty active, even within a couple of days after feeding. They are definitely NOT underfed. I know that most pythons and boas tend to be lazy after feeding, but I would not put retics in that category. Just my opinion in my limited experience.

Retics are absolutely more active than burms or rocks.

Is that the topic now?

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Originally Posted by Nate

no.

There is nothing wrong with debate and discussion.

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Agreed.

Does BHB produce absolutely beautiful animals? Yes

Is he a pioneer in the production of beautiful morphs? Yes

Does he genuinely care about his animals? Appears so

However, he is a business, not a "keeper". I can totally understand the need to house his animals the way he does, what I don't agree with is the newbie/inexperienced pet owner thinking that this is the way that snakes should be kept.

I get a lot of grief for my beliefs, not only on this subject either, but in over 30 years of keeping reptiles I have learned a thing or two, and not from "someone else's setups" or "someone's care sheet". I have kept every species of giant snake except for Morelia amethystina, and they all benefit from an enclosure that allows them to do more than curl up.

Here's a suggestion to some of you:

Go into your herp room and look at your snakes after lights out. It's truly amazing what you will see! Of course if all you see is a bunch of tubs that look no different than they did at 1pm then I'm just beating a dead horse here...

And I agree with Denial. If you have a retic in a tub, you are committing animal cruelty.

Chris

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Originally Posted by wilomn

A full snake is a lazy snake?

Well, it's a load of crap is what it is, literally as well as figuratively.

Lazy is a human condition, not a reptilian one.

A content snake, a snake with no need to be on the hunt, a snake warm and secure is................oh, of course, lazy.

I've no doubt Denial keeps his snakes in good conditions.

I agree that he is not an expert.

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Figure of speech, 'brother' <---- also a figure of speech.

"Should" be kept....

"animal cruelty"....

Another expert with another opinion....

It's not news, not to me anyway, that nocturnal snakes, which all snakes with elliptical pupils are as far as I know, more active at night.

Does that mean you who keep them should only feed when it's dark? Isn't it also cruel to make them eat in daylight when they are normally and biologically disposed to feed at night?

Snakes need to eat, thermoregulate and breed. They don't run marathons. They don't live in closets, though many do prefer tight enclosed spaces for long durations, most do not gather socially and none of the species discussed here do at all.

Anthropomorphism.

Bigger is better for us and may induce what appears to be reptilian exercise or exploration but how do we know it's not just a snake looking for a comfy spot to curl up and wait for it's next meal and not the assumed snake out for a slither to visit friends?

I'm not taking either side here as both work.

It's just funny to me that some of you say you don't have a problem with certain things EVEN THOUGH THOSE CERTAIN THINGS ARE WRONG.

Maybe I'm just anthropomorphizing that though.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

"Should" be kept....

"animal cruelty"....

Another expert with another opinion....

It's not news, not to me anyway, that nocturnal snakes, which all snakes with elliptical pupils are as far as I know, more active at night.

Does that mean you who keep them should only feed when it's dark? Isn't it also cruel to make them eat in daylight when they are normally and biologically disposed to feed at night?

Snakes need to eat, thermoregulate and breed. They don't run marathons. They don't live in closets, though many do prefer tight enclosed spaces for long durations, most do not gather socially and none of the species discussed here do at all.

Anthropomorphism.

Bigger is better for us and may induce what appears to be reptilian exercise or exploration but how do we know it's not just a snake looking for a comfy spot to curl up and wait for it's next meal and not the assumed snake out for a slither to visit friends?

I'm not taking either side here as both work.

It's just funny to me that some of you say you don't have a problem with certain things EVEN THOUGH THOSE CERTAIN THINGS ARE WRONG.

Maybe I'm just anthropomorphizing that though.

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Bigger isn't necessarily better but an enclosure that allows a snake to stretch out a bit isn't considered 'big'. IMO