ASF Tell ALLS... Finally decided to reveal to my BP.net brothers and sisters....

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Most hog feeds I looked at have extreme overdoses of copper in them--hogs are highly resistant to copper, so it's added to their feed to improve their growth rates. The amount of copper in hog feed is high enough to just kill off sheep that get into it and eat it, for example.

While the rodents may be able to withstand these high copper levels, I am concerned for the health of any carnivore that eats those rodents. Were you able to find hog feeds that did not contain excessive copper supplements?

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I did research how well mice can tolerate copper before I fed hog food to my mice, and I was able to find info from scientific studies that indicated mice can tolerate a lot of copper. Admittedly I'm not 100% certain how it affects the snakes, but I'm not the only person who has fed my rodent colony with hog food, and so far no one is reporting problems.

I assume that since it is safe for people to eat these hogs that have been fed on these high copper hog feeds, that the amount of copper that stays in the animal is not nearly as high as in the food they feed them. So the same is probably true for rodents.

Perhaps the issue with sheep has more to do with them being super sensitive to copper? I know copper is used in certain medicines for aquarium fish, but you can't use it if you have certain species of fish because it is toxic to those species, but just fine for most fish.

The hog feed Mike feeds is ONLY available in the south eastern U.S.

Most hog feeds do contain high supplemental copper, but there are formulas out there that don't.

I would not feed rats something that can be fed to any ruminants like cattle, they require HIGH fiber and roughage being herbivores, that is not something a pig or rat would thrive on.

When I was looking for hog feed I noticed their were different formulas for different stages. I will try to do some research on them and compare ingredients/nutritional value to mazuri and country acres and try to find one that matches and is available around here.

Those of you feeding your ASFs hog feed... have you been feeding them to your BPs for long and have you had any issues with BP clutches that might be associated with copper problems?

I still feed the hog feed exclusively. I also feed my entire snake collections ASF's exclusively. I have had 4 perfect clutches laid this year.

Mike, how long have you been feeding the ASFs on hog feed? (Curious how long the snakes have been eating the ASFs on it).

Wow mike great write up!!! Just curious were you get the pine i pay almost 7.00 for a 4 cubic feet at wal-mart??

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Originally Posted by kc261

I assume that since it is safe for people to eat these hogs that have been fed on these high copper hog feeds, that the amount of copper that stays in the animal is not nearly as high as in the food they feed them. So the same is probably true for rodents.

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See, I personally need a lot more evidence before I would risk my snakes with something like this--I want real long-term trials, not just a few months or a year on it, too. It's safe for people to eat pork raised that way, but people do not eat pork exclusively--they eat many other things as well, so that doesn't necessarily mean the levels of copper in the pork aren't excessively high for humans. If you eat a lot of pork liver, you may find copper toxicity is an actual risk. Our snakes will be eating the innards along with the rest of the animal, including the organs that concentrate copper.

While most non-ruminant animals appear to tolerate copper very well, there are some species that don't--including some breeds of dogs, and as was mentioned, some fish. Since copper toxicity harms the liver and kidneys, it's definitely something that would need to be studied for a long time, with each species individually, and very thoroughly, to be safe.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

See, I personally need a lot more evidence before I would risk my snakes with something like this--I want real long-term trials, not just a few months or a year on it, too. It's safe for people to eat pork raised that way, but people do not eat pork exclusively--they eat many other things as well, so that doesn't necessarily mean the levels of copper in the pork aren't excessively high for humans. If you eat a lot of pork liver, you may find copper toxicity is an actual risk. Our snakes will be eating the innards along with the rest of the animal, including the organs that concentrate copper.

While most non-ruminant animals appear to tolerate copper very well, there are some species that don't--including some breeds of dogs, and as was mentioned, some fish. Since copper toxicity harms the liver and kidneys, it's definitely something that would need to be studied for a long time, with each species individually, and very thoroughly, to be safe.

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LOL, I think 95% of snakes in captivity today are proof that you are worried about nothing.

Why do I say this? It is easy. The hog feed I am using has Copper 16 - 19 ppm.

Mazuri 6F, what the great majority of Rodent breeders feed has Copper 22 ppm. https://www.mazuri.com/PDF/5M30.pdf

So yeah, if your worries are true, you better switch to the hog feed right away!

I think it's good to be interested in whatever diet you choose to feed. A good quality diet is key, and just going out to buy whatever is on sale without doing research is likely a poor choice.

It sounds like Mike's feed choice was a good one, and has copper levels lower than a popular rat feed.

Mike, that's fantastic news--thank you for that information, I had no idea copper levels in rodent block were so high. Looks like I'll be switching to hog feed as well, in that case--the composition is pretty similar, and it's a heck of a lot cheaper.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Mike, that's fantastic news--thank you for that information, I had no idea copper levels in rodent block were so high. Looks like I'll be switching to hog feed as well, in that case--the composition is pretty similar, and it's a heck of a lot cheaper.

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Your welcome. :gj:

I tried a local feed store and the only thing they had for hog (swine) was Nutrena PorkTrack. It didn't look too far off from the other listed. But what do you guys think?

Country Acres Hog Feed
Protein 16.00% min.
Lysine .65% min.
Crude fat 3.00% min.
Crude fiber 7.00% min.
Calcium .60% min.
Calcium 1.10% max
Phos .70% min
Salt .25% min.
Salt .75% max
Selenium .300PPM min.
Zinc 100.000PPM min.

Nutrena PorkTrack Whole Herd
Protein 16.00% min.
Lysine .82% min.
Crude fat 3.00% min.
Crude fiber 9.00% min.
Calcium 0.8% min.
Calcium 1.3% max
Phos .55% min
Salt .15% min.
Salt .65% max
Selenium .3 PPM min.
Zinc 98 PPM min.

Do you see anything that is either too high or low? If it doesn't look bad I'll get it. It is 9.49 for a 50lb bag.
Thanks!

Whats the ingredients looking like?

Grain Products, Plant Protein Products, Processed Grain By Products, Animal Protein Products, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadiance Dimethylpyrimidinal Bisulfite, Thiai0mine, Biotin, Folic Acid, L-Lysine, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Manganous Oxide Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Chloride, Zinc Sulfate, Calcium lodate, Glycerin.

Dang that was hard to type, not only tiny lettering but I don't know what half that stuff is. lol

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Originally Posted by SilverWolf

Dang that was hard to type, not only tiny lettering but I don't know what half that stuff is. lol

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LOL!

I have no idea what the ingredients mean. I lucked out with the stuff I found I guess.... But I am sure connie (the little scientist she is) will chime in with your answer...

I ask just to see, looks normal. When I was dealing with Nutrena customer service, they didn't mention a 16% grower, but did say that the 18% was medicated, which should always be avoided. I am surprised he never mentioned what you posted, they we're pretty loath to hand out guaranteed analysis PDF's.

If the 'pork track' is more of a general program than a specific formula, it sounds like that one would work, since it does follow closely to Mike's feed. :gj:

Thanks for the input. And didn't mind typing the ingredients, just made me think I might need glasses. lol

I tried taking a picture of the label but it wouldn't come out very well. So the lady at the feed store let me take the label from a punctured bag.

The label says: This product is designed to be fed to all classes of swine. And under feeding instructions is says: Provide full feed to growing, finishing, and lactating swine. Hand feed 5 to 8lbs per head per day to gestating sows.

So I guess I'll just go back tomorrow and get a bag.

Thanks again!

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

The hog feed Mike feeds is ONLY available in the south eastern U.S.
Most hog feeds do contain high supplemental copper, but there are formulas out there that don't.

I would not feed rats something that can be fed to any ruminants like cattle, they require HIGH fiber and roughage being herbivores, that is not something a pig or rat would thrive on.

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I'd have to disagree. I'm in Oregon and I found out that "Country Acres" is indeed a Purina product. It's just that the 16% hog feed has been renamed Sow and Pig Grower ( at least in THIS distribution area.) They no longer medicate as many kinds/types of hog feed whereas (when I was in FFA 20+ years ago) everything for hogs was medicated. But be sure to ask your feed store, JIC.

As of today, a 50# is 9.99, vs. the 17.99 (or so) for 25# of Mazuri. Did I see somewhere that the 50# CAN'T be fed to the fancies???? It would sure help the budget if the pets raising food, AND the ASFs can eat the hog feed!!

Is this the Bedding you were using Mike?

http://www.suncoastbedding.com/content.aspx?id=204

Just making sure I'll find the right one when I go buy it. :)

I was wondering if this feed would be ok since I couldn't find the country acres at our local TSC. All they seem to have is Producers pride. Sorry this is all the info they have on the details of it.

Appearance: Pellet
Ingredients: Protein 15.0%, Fat 3.0%, Fiber 5.0%
Applications: Used for Growing, Breeding and Maintaining Pigs

Here is the link for the TSC maybe a different one on their list is better?

http://www.tractorsupply.com/livestock/livestock-feed/

Thanks Guys for the help!

can some one give me a website for the food/bedding?

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Originally Posted by Danounet

Is this the Bedding you were using Mike?

http://www.suncoastbedding.com/content.aspx?id=204

Just making sure I'll find the right one when I go buy it. :)

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yep :)

There are a few brands that are similar... and the store I use does not always have the suncoast bedding in stock... but it is hands down the best value I have found so far.

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Originally Posted by tiexecutioner

can some one give me a website for the food/bedding?

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Stay away from pine its not good for the rats !

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Originally Posted by Haydenphoto

Stay away from pine its not good for the rats !

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Please read and research. there is nothing wrong with using kiln dried pine.

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Originally Posted by sweety314

I'd have to disagree. I'm in Oregon and I found out that "Country Acres" is indeed a Purina product. It's just that the 16% hog feed has been renamed Sow and Pig Grower ( at least in THIS distribution area.)

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That very well could be true. Customer service answers vary so much anyways. When I called about the specific brand Mike mentioned, they said it was only available in the southeastern US. So, it is likely they slap a different name on it when selling to other locations.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Please read and research. there is nothing wrong with using kiln dried pine.

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True just make sure its kiln dried :)

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Originally Posted by Haydenphoto

True just make sure its kiln dried :)

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I suppose it depends on the individual person's idea of "wrong". No one can deny that pine does adversly effect liver tissue, enzymes and respiratory health. However, not everyone sees eye to eye on how detrimental those effects are on the health and quality of life of rats.

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Originally Posted by Haydenphoto

Stay away from pine its not good for the rats !

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Please read and research. there is nothing wrong with using kiln dried pine.

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My question is, if the snakes eat the ASF (or any other rodent) while they still have pine in their furs. Does that harm the snake?

I haven't seen any papers on what harmful effects pine has on snakes. I've seen it repeated many times that the caustic phenols and oils from CEDAR are an irritant to their skin and can be toxic, but I also havent spent time looking for the origin of the idea.

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Originally Posted by Danounet

My question is, if the snakes eat the ASF (or any other rodent) while they still have pine in their furs. Does that harm the snake?

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I say no way. Don't ever underestimate the power of a snakes digestive system.

The pine debate is always a large one it seems. I recently found a research study done that found no detremental affects to using pine and I switched to standard pine bedding at that time and have not had any issues thus far. Many labs use just pine as well. Ill see if i can find studya and post at some point. I forget the main point of how the cliched anti-pine statement is wrong.

Is 14% protein hog feed ok if I a supplement with extra protein? Like at but of cat or dog food has been suggested. If those options work can I get the stuff at a box store like petsmart? Or is the stuff there not of the best quality?

I also feed all my rats a bird feed mix with a lot of millet.

Bump. headed to get more hog feed and couldn't remember the right protein %.... lol took me forever to find this thread!

Just read through the origional thread and the only real change I have made since then is that I got rid of the food hoppers for the grow out tubs. Now I just dump the food on the substrate with those as well. A little harder to measure the food because there is always a different number of rats in them... but after a while you get a feel for how much food they need without the waste.

Thanks again for the information, Mike, but after having been using the hog feed for a few months now, I have a problem and was seeking suggestions.....

I don't own a separate freezer for FT rats, or anything large enough for a bag. I've been experiencing problems with the dust mites. I know U can freeze the feed for a day or two to kill 'em, but I don't have the facilities for it. Some of my ASF now have bare spots on their backs or tummies from (I believe) scratching. I'd very much like to NOT change back to the Mazuri blocks.

I've even gone so far as to change the bedding even more frequently, and have sprayed the P.A.M in the lidded feed container to try and stop the problem, w/o success. :(:mad:

Any suggestions??? Is freezing the only method to get rid of them???


FWIW: RE: Pine....I'm using pine for the ASFs, but found with our fancies, that pine bedding, or even the pine pellets, caused respiratory problems, and they don't do as well. The ASFs, it doesn't seem to matter that much.

You could always try freezing in smaller quantities...? Fill a container (that can fit in your current freezer) with the feed, freeze it for a few days, give to rats, repeat...

I used the hog feed for a while but gave up on it and went back to Mazuri. I had SERIOUS mite problems that came with the hog feeds. The mites would be CAKED on anything within a 15ft radius of the food supply. I tried everything. Oven cooking 10lbs at a time on super high heat for hours; freezing; using water trays to inhibit the mites from spreading. Nothing was a permanent fix so I just went back to expensive old Mazuri.

Goodluck and let us know how your mite adventure goes! :salute:

This is what I was using from a local feed and supply store. It was about $14.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...i/100_1793.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...i/100_1794.jpg

Now it just sits inside the sink cabinet. I dont breed ASFs anymore. I use it to keep feeders alive from pet shops when the snakes dont feel like eating.

Never have had a problem with the mites... maybe get your feed from a different store?

For feed storage, I open and use one bag at a time.

I dump the entire contents of the bag into a big storage tub that I keep covered at all times. I don't open a new bag until the storage tub is completely empty, sprayed clean with water, and dried.

also wanted to add that scratches and bare spots on the back are common on females and are caused by an aggressive breeding male... (aka stud!) :taz:

Thx to all 4 the info....I'm only opening / using one bag @ a time, but with only 5 tanks of rats, I'm probably not using it "fast enough" and that's why the dust mites. I'm also storing it in a sealed (but not airtight??) container, and since all the rats are in the house, that might be a contributing factor.

One tank had 3 litters of a total of about 30 babies (now hoppers), but the other tank has brained all of the 3 litters (born separately) that they've had. I've managed to get only 3 pinks, but euthanized them, rather than have them brained. I think with these, I'll just feed off the adults, and keep some of the other's hoppers as breeders.

I thought maybe having 2 tanks of 1.3 would be enough, but I'm STILL feeding off ASFs faster than they're breeding and growing. *sigh* Guess it's time to start another one or two breeding tanks. :oops:

where could i get the hog feed and bedding?

Any feed or farm supply store

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Originally Posted by chrisdab

What about lithium grease as lubricant? Its considered household grease but I dont know the toxicity of it. The good thing about them is that door hinges or garage door chains, when greased last for years.

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I know that lithium grease is used in food production so it must be safe. I think all white lithium grease is food safe just read the package I am sure it will say something, you can get it from any hardware or most automotive stores (i.e. O'rileys)

Mike

Definitely like this thread. Not breeding ASFs, but plan to soon depending on what happens with my store ordering them.

With bedding, if you can't get to a feed store, PetCo sells a HUUUUUGE bag of pine, spruce, and fir shavings for like 6 bucks with a Petco Pals card. I used it for two 1.2 mouse bins a bit bigger than a 10 gal tank, cleaned once a week for about 6 months and still had over half of it left. There's also some cheap aspen shavings for a bit more.

Walmart started selling a 14% hog feed, but I haven't checked it out enough to know if it's a good buy. You can get a big bag of dog food (like 40lb) for 15 bucks that would work for rats if you got a low protein formula for seniors. Ol' Roy has the biggest bang for your buck at Walmart from what I've checked.

14% is entirelly too low imo. the real rodent food i get is 23%

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Originally Posted by BAMReptiles

14% is entirelly too low imo. the real rodent food i get is 23%

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In a word, NO. This is wrong. The stuff I use is 16% protein, and trust me, I get as good if not better results then your over priced 23% "real" rodent food.

How do I know? I have tested and documented the results myself.

was just curious, i mean that stuff is made for breeding lab rodents. the majority of what i use is around 20%. i jsut found it odd that it was that high

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Originally Posted by BAMReptiles

was just curious, i mean that stuff is made for breeding lab rodents. the majority of what i use is around 20%. i jsut found it odd that it was that high

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well keep in mind it wasn't made for breeding ASF's. One thing is certain.... ASF's are a totally different world in many ways then normal rats and mice.

ah yea didnt think about that even

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

In a word, NO. This is wrong. The stuff I use is 16% protein, and trust me, I get as good if not better results then your over priced 23% "real" rodent food.

How do I know? I have tested and documented the results myself.

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Can I see those? :D *curious*

Also, is 14% okay? If the feed store I know very little about doesn't carry anything that works, that's what Walmart carries. 14% protein and 3% fat, I think. I could give you more nutritional info if you need that to make an opinion.