BallpythonZone.com Split - Wild caught BP

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Originally Posted by AaronP

Although I agree with most of which you said bout taking care of WCs I don't understand this statement. You make it sound as if they're defective animals like people not breeding caramels because of kinking or spiders because of wobbling. If I had a couple of adult WC females who ate well and were of acceptable breeding size I wouldn't hesitate to pair them up with one of my CB morph males.

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Not at all! I don't breed rescue animals. Seeing as most Wild Caughts that end up at my door step are rescues, I won't breed them.

I pretty much figure that they've had it this tough so far, they deserve a stress free, worry free, lifestyle. :)

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Originally Posted by Michelle.C

I pretty much figure that they've had it this tough so far, they deserve a stress free, worry free, lifestyle. :)

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You're erroneously applying human feelings to an animal with no emotions. Breeding/laying eggs is a natural part of ball python life, there is a reason why ball pythons will go off feed certain times of the year, and it isn't cause they are tired of eating.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

You're erroneously applying human feelings to an animal with no emotions. Breeding/laying eggs is a natural part of ball python life, there is a reason why ball pythons will go off feed certain times of the year, and it isn't cause they are tired of eating.

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Just a personal preference. I am not applying any emotions. I'm not saying it as a blanket statement, I am saying my personal preference. I have nothing against others breeding their Wild Caught females.

Breeding/laying eggs is natural, but it is also stressful for the animal. The animals stops feeding and puts all effort into the production of eggs. With the Wild Caught animals I've worked with, this isn't something I want to put them through.

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Originally Posted by Michelle.C

Just a personal preference. I am not applying any emotions. I'm not saying it as a blanket statement, I am saying my personal preference. I have nothing against others breeding their Wild Caught females.

Breeding/laying eggs is natural, but it is also stressful for the animal. The animals stops feeding and puts all effort into the production of eggs. With the Wild Caught animals I've worked with, this isn't something I want to put them through.

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I can understand that it's a personal preference, I just wanted to make it clear that there is nothing wrong with it. Ball pythons are easily stressed animals, honestly they are, it isn't saying much when you say they're stressed.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

I can understand that it's a personal preference, I just wanted to make it clear that there is nothing wrong with it. Ball pythons are easily stressed animals, honestly they are, it isn't saying much when you say they're stressed.

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now arent you the one applying human emotion...:D

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Originally Posted by AaronP

I can understand that it's a personal preference, I just wanted to make it clear that there is nothing wrong with it. Ball pythons are easily stressed animals, honestly they are, it isn't saying much when you say they're stressed.

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Nope, not saying something is wrong with the animal. As in, they are below grade or deformed. Simply stating most of the Wild Caughts that were sent my way were physically jacked up (burns, scars, etc). I understand not all Wild Caught animals are this way, but the ones I rescued were.

I wasn't really referring to "mental stress", more physical stress on the body. :)

I personally own Captive Hatched animals, I wouldn't have a problem in the world breeding them. My Captive Hatched females are actually better eaters than most of my Captive Born females. They are little sausages. :D

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Originally Posted by azpythons

now arent you the one applying human emotion...:D

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We use the word stress to refer to when our animals aren't acting as they normally would in a negative aspect (as in they don't have a hide anymore and they won't eat so that means they're stressed).

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Originally Posted by Jerhart

I'm going to have macaroni and cheese for breakfast!! :banana:

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I don't eat breakfast. But I had eggs and hashbrowns for lunch at Waffle House! :)

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Originally Posted by Michelle.C

Just a personal preference. I am not applying any emotions. I'm not saying it as a blanket statement, I am saying my personal preference. I have nothing against others breeding their Wild Caught females.

Breeding/laying eggs is natural, but it is also stressful for the animal. The animals stops feeding and puts all effort into the production of eggs. With the Wild Caught animals I've worked with, this isn't something I want to put them through.

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I will not point fingers at either Aaron's or your arguments, however, I will say that enough scientific research has not been done, and I don't even think that technologies exist to do the type of research or learning that needs to be done to make the statements that I have read. Personally, I believe that after a few million years of evolution, I still think that these animals are programmed to do a restricted number of acts. Eating, drinking, surviving and procreating. I am not saying that you will "drive a snake to insanity", but I don't think you are putting as the type of stress that you and I regard as bad on an animal that yearns to pass on it's genes.

Just my thoughts,

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Originally Posted by azpythons

now arent you the one applying human emotion...:D

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Stress shouldn't be considered a human emotion, or an emotion at all if you ask me. All animals can experience stress. There is distress and eustress.

Merriam- Webster's Dictionary

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Pain or suffering affecting the body, a bodily part, or the mind : trouble, a painful situation : misfortune: a state of danger or desperate need

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Distressed is another way of saying upset, disturbed, afflicted, pretty much something the animal doesn't like to experience, whether that be physically or as in a situation.

But that's just my two cents.

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Originally Posted by Michelle.C

I wasn't really referring to "mental stress", more physical stress on the body. :)

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Originally Posted by muddoc

I will not point fingers at either Aaron's or your arguments, however, I will say that enough scientific research has not been done, and I don't even think that technologies exist to do the type of research or learning that needs to be done to make the statements that I have read. Personally, I believe that after a few million years of evolution, I still think that these animals are programmed to do a restricted number of acts. Eating, drinking, surviving and procreating. I am not saying that you will "drive a snake to insanity", but I don't think you are putting as the type of stress that you and I regard as bad on an animal that yearns to pass on it's genes.

Just my thoughts,

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I agree, I believe there is a load of research to do on these animals.

I am not applying emotions to the animal, I am using my own emotions to make a judgment. Yes, emotions are involved, but I don't believe the animal is stressing in the sense that other creatures do (emotionally).

When I see an animal who has 40% of it's scales burnt off, I figure it deserves an obstacle free existence.

I don't breed the animal, because it is stressful physically speaking, and for all we know, mentally as well. It might only be stressful for a few moments, but after you take the eggs away, a female will continue to brood and protect the imaginary eggs if you do not completely remove the scent. Logically, this is instinct, but..Again, the physical stress is enough to not make me want to breed rescues.

It's just a personal preference. I am not judging anyone else, in anyway for doing things differently. I am quite sure a few of the Wild Caught females I fostered would have been wonderful breeders. :)

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Originally Posted by Watever

Don't you understand that for every animal that get sell in the pet store industry, there is a lot of them that die in the transport ?

There is probably not much left morph still available in the wild. Not worth it IMO. But the probably that is only 1 is enough for people to buy them. It's like a lotery ticket, probability you win is low, but still a lot of people take it.

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Where did you get your data reguarding the number of Ball Pythons that die in transport as captive hatchlings?

Probably not many morphs left in the wild??? We have only been finding them for 2 decades...I have a feeling there are many, many more to be found out there.

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Originally Posted by Michelle.C

I agree, I believe there is a load of research to do on these animals.

I am not applying emotions to the animal, I am using my own emotions to make a judgment. Yes, emotions are involved, but I don't believe the animal is stressing in the sense that other creatures do (emotionally).

When I see an animal who has 40% of it's scales burnt off, I figure it deserves an obstacle free existence.

I don't breed the animal, because it is stressful physically speaking, and for all we know, mentally as well. It might only be stressful for a few moments, but after you take the eggs away, a female will continue to brood and protect the imaginary eggs if you do not completely remove the scent. Logically, this is instinct, but..Again, the physical stress is enough to not make me want to breed rescues.

It's just a personal preference. I am not judging anyone else, in anyway for doing things differently. I am quite sure a few of the Wild Caught females I fostered would have been wonderful breeders. :)

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I agree with you Michelle, as well as I understand Tim's point of view on this matter... I think that your idea with physically injured and recovering snakes not breeding even after recovery because of possible physical issues down the road is intelligent. And I think Tim's idea is very solid too, but I feel like he's almost discussing a different idea with breeding healthy WC females, but I could be wrong.

This topic is very unusual. In the fact that people are arguing over something that will continue, and that they will probably support at some point.

If you don't want to work with WC Gravids, thats one thing.. but if you don't want anything to do with any breeder that has WC animals, then I just feel sorry for you, cause most breeders probably have at some point. I don't think it's necessarily bad either, I'd rather some of the animals go to the big breeders and be healthy and well taken care of then to a Petco.

I think that the OP means to discourage pure WC Gravid selling from 'breeders'. I think he really just doesn't want anyone to work with flippers, and that is understandable.

It does not matter if a ball python is CB or WC;

What matters is who is caring for them; making sure they are clean, fed right, caged right, etc.

The real issue is who their caretakers are.

A lazy, dirty owner could take CB snakes and care poorly for them.

A proactive, clean, responsible owner can take some BP's out of the wild and care for them in the appropriate manner.

So, in my opinion, its not the origin of the specimen, but rather who their owners are.

After all, everything we own is technically from WC somewhere down the line.

You are buying the owner, not the snakes.

BrandonsBalls.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

I agree with you Michelle, as well as I understand Tim's point of view on this matter... I think that your idea with physically injured and recovering snakes not breeding even after recovery because of possible physical issues down the road is intelligent. And I think Tim's idea is very solid too, but I feel like he's almost discussing a different idea with breeding healthy WC females, but I could be wrong.

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I agree with Tim as well. I don't see a reason not to breed a healthy Wild Caught specimen. It's already imported, it's no more stressful on the body than a Captive Born, why waste the genes?

So, I agree that breeding a Wild Caught animal is fine, genetically speaking. However, the Wild Caught animals I have worked with were not physically capable to to clutch and recover. Most of the Wild Caught fosters/rescues that move through this house are generally in very poor condition. One was burnt so bad, you could hardly tell that it was a Ball Python, another had been left in with a hungry rat for a few weeks, others had bacterial infections, mouth rot, severe Respiratory Infections and Chronic feeding issues. Most of these animals came to me scarred, underweight, dehydrated, not feeding, etc.

I will also probably never purchase a Wild Caught animal to breed. So, chances are, I will never breed a Wild Caught female. Not because of genes either, I think their genes are stronger than most Captive Born animals. I just enjoy raising my personal collection up from hatchlings. :P

That was my statement. That I, personally, will not breed them.

Very well said, Brandon!

Crissy I think the point you're making is a valid one, however, what you are talking about is not breeding a damaged rescue. Whether that rescued snake was in the beginning hatched in the wild or in an incubator in captivity isn't going to make much difference when it comes down to it, to my mind anyways. If it's been hurt, neglected or outright abused then it's completely appropriate to make a decision about whether that is an appropriate animal to breed. I believe only the person rehabbing that particular snake can make that call and hopefully make it responsibly and on a case by case basis.

For me it's always going to be about that particular snake and properly assessing it's current needs on an ongoing basis, more than it's past history either in the wild or in captivity.

To Crissy and Crystal,
I think Jo said it best above. I was not really arguing either side of the point, but wanted merely to insert a bit of opinion. I can fully agree regarding rescues. We call threm that because typically they were removed from deplorable conditions and much time was spent on their recovery. I also know that most rescues are conditioned and once well, given to others as pets. That would make any arguing moot.

With that said, I do have a rescue that was rescued by someone else about 7 years ago, and bought by me (I didn't know it was a rescue when I bought it) 5 years ago. She is 11 years old, and has a burne scar on her side that nears her vent. She has laid clutches 3 years in a row, and is one of my sweetest girls. She putss her weight back on every year, and is one of my best breeding Normals (also her eggs average about 140 grams each every year).

I think I am up to .08 now,

Of course there are negatives to the import/export business with any animal... Some do die in transport, probably aren't well cared for by the exporters, etc. however these things would probably change with education. These people do indeed put food on their tables by capturing and exporting balls, so maybe there needs to be an education campaign in Africa to teach these people how to bette care for the snakes while in their possesion, so that more of them survive to make them more money.

However I think the inhumanity of it all pretty much ends there. If you have the knowledge to take care of your WC and the money to get it's parasites taken care of, etc. then I don't see a difference at all in WC or CBB because these animals are not domesticated.

In my (rather uneducated) opinion, snakes are not domesticated and so dealing with humans every day is no more or less stressful for a WC or CBB.

If you take an adult wolf out of the wild and put them in a cage, they will stress out. They're wild animals and they don't handle captivity well. Dogs however, have been domesticated for thousands of years and enjoy human interaction. Many of them sleep in crates or cages while their owners are at work or whatever... They're fine with it. There's a big difference between a domesticated poodle and a wolf.

You think there's the same difference between a CB ball that's been in captivity for maybe 10 generations and a WC? I really don't think so. I think ALL ball pythons are still "wolves" and it takes a CB hatchling time to adjust to it's enviroment just like it takes time for an import to adjust.

I think they're all wild.

Of course that's just my opinion and all. :D

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Originally Posted by ctrlfreq

I hate to use this term negatively, but - American in nature (in the spoiled-rotten, first-world citizen who has never experienced life elsewhere sense).

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don't mean to hijack the thread or anything, but that is a garbage thing to say. if you "hate" to use the term negatively, then don't use it that way. there are any number of descriptors you could have used to have gotten your point across. just because YOU are spoiled rotten and haven't done jack doesn't mean that those traits are "American".

sorry. that one REALLY rubbed me the wrong way. talk amongst yourselves...

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Originally Posted by Ponthieux

if you "hate" to use the term negatively, then don't use it that way.

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Sorry if I kicked your patriotism there, but there really isn't another term that would have fit so aptly.

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Originally Posted by Ponthieux

just because YOU are spoiled rotten and haven't done jack

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While I could spend this time informing you as to just how off base you are there, I'll just save that time and effort and instead just point out that my original statement is the observation as a realist who is as puzzled as anyone as to why and how the USA has become a nation of people who feel they're somehow entitled to things I'm sometimes still find myself amazed even exist.

I agree, Euro-Americans do believe they are entitled. Manifest destiny. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Python Guru

you guys should check out The Urban Python in Ontario . . . they have some of the craziest wild caught ball pythons i have seen and are currently tryin to prove them out . . . here is the link check these snakes out and then tell me you think its bad to be working with wild caughts http://www.theurbanpython.com/ball_p...ollection.html

http://www.theurbanpython.com/sandblast.html
http://www.theurbanpython.com/lemonfrost.html
every snake came from the wild at some point and some of the best and craziest morphs came from the wild caughts . . . even normals with amazing patterns, if you dont want a WC then dont buy one

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Man, that eclipse is hawt! She looks like one of my snakes, what I call my unproven pastel stripe. He isnt wild caught but his mom was.
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/g.../090120014.jpg

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I agree, Euro-Americans do believe they are entitled. Manifest destiny. :rolleyes:

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I cannot bear to dig back through the whole thread... but I have shirt, with a previous *cough* leader of the US that says Manifest Density on it. :)

Just had to note that... too fitting.

Bruce

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I agree, Euro-Americans do believe they are entitled. Manifest destiny. :rolleyes:

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At the risk of further hi-jacking this thread, I would love this to be split off into the QT Room. I have about 7,000 things to say about Manifest Destiny and how it has shaped the world we currently live in...for the better, but this isn't the thread for it.

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Originally Posted by Slim

At the risk of further hi-jacking this thread, I would love this to be split off into the QT Room. I have about 7,000 things to say about Manifest Destiny and how it has shaped the world we currently live in...for the better, but this isn't the thread for it.

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You know you can always start a thread in QT anytime you wish to, so don't be shy about it.

Now back to our regular programming WILD CAUGHT BP ;)

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Originally Posted by Slim

At the risk of further hi-jacking this thread, I would love this to be split off into the QT Room. I have about 7,000 things to say about Manifest Destiny and how it has shaped the world we currently live in...for the better, but this isn't the thread for it.

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If it HAS to go there I can split the thread... that was my fear about noting my comments. Somedays I should know better.

But I would prefer we keep it on track, although personally I think this thread may have run its course awhile back.

Just my 0.02 cents.

Bruce

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Originally Posted by Deborah

You know you can always start a thread in QT anytime you wish to, so don't be shy about it.

Now back to our regular programming WILD CAUGHT BP ;)

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Dang girl... you reading over my shoulder again? :P

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Originally Posted by Slim

At the risk of further hi-jacking this thread, I would love this to be split off into the QT Room. I have about 7,000 things to say about Manifest Destiny and how it has shaped the world we currently live in...for the better, but this isn't the thread for it.

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I would LOVE to read it. ;)