WC Gravids?

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Originally Posted by RKO

Brian has strict rules about that. Only CBB animals are allowed in his show. Though I'm sure some people could lie and say that their WC or CH snake is CBB.

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i wasnt refering to the show im refering to him period.
his store is well... is that dead dried up frog still stuck in the window!:colbert:

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Originally Posted by redpython

Um, not sure where you are buying your snakes, but this pretty much cuts out the big guys.



Is snake breeding your career? if so, then maybe you should invest some real bucks into some crazy morph that has a chance at a return.

And if it were illegal to import ball pythons, then there would be NONE in captivity, it's a double edged sword.

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Yes it does cut out most of the big guys, whom I do not buy from. I support the smaller guys who do not deal with ch or wc animals.

No snake breeding is not my career. I do this as a side business. I have invested in some pretty expensive morphs. I have also had to sell off most, and eventually all, of my normal females, so that I do not produce many normals. I will eventually only be breeding morph to morph. It is not worth it to me to spend all year taking care of and feeding a normal female when in the end my return is $50 off of her entire clutch of normal babies. Now if it was illegal to import, then the price per hatchling would go way up, so it would be worth it to keep and breed these females.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and mine is that I will not support these market crashers!

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Originally Posted by redpython

Is snake breeding your career? if so, then maybe you should invest some real bucks into some crazy morph that has a chance at a return.

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And yet you would still end up producing norms, or hets.

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And if it were illegal to import ball pythons, then there would be NONE in captivity, it's a double edged sword.

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Really? So if we stopped importing today all my snakes would disappear with a poof? NO. Wake up. At what point is enough enough? If we already have a sustainable gene pool within a captive population, why keep importing in such huge numbers? I'm not against all importing, I AM against the sheer greed that has been going on for the last few years as more and more middlemen try and make a quick buck.


~Kat

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Originally Posted by janeothejungle

Really? So if we stopped importing today all my snakes would disappear with a poof? NO. Wake up. At what point is enough enough? If we already have a sustainable gene pool within a captive population, why keep importing in such huge numbers? I'm not against all importing, I AM against the sheer greed that has been going on for the last few years as more and more middlemen try and make a quick buck.


~Kat

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i think you kinda miss read that kat i think he was getting at if it was illegal from the get go there wouldnt be any here

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Originally Posted by nixer

i think you kinda miss read that kat i think he was getting at if it was illegal from the get go there wouldnt be any here

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Yet the majority of people in the thread are advocating for the reduction and regulation of, not a ban on importation.

~Kat

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

Yes it does cut out most of the big guys, whom I do not buy from. I support the smaller guys who do not deal with ch or wc animals.

No snake breeding is not my career. I do this as a side business. I have invested in some pretty expensive morphs. I have also had to sell off most, and eventually all, of my normal females, so that I do not produce many normals. I will eventually only be breeding morph to morph. It is not worth it to me to spend all year taking care of and feeding a normal female when in the end my return is $50 off of her entire clutch of normal babies. Now if it was illegal to import, then the price per hatchling would go way up, so it would be worth it to keep and breed these females.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and mine is that I will not support these market crashers!

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which smaller guys are you refering to?

morph to morph is a smart business move for a small guy.
i dont think the price would go up. the point here is that at one time someone lowered the price to that and thats where is will stay jsut like everything else will.

market crashers is a fine line. last time i checked most of the ppl crashing prices are the ones on KS that have maybe a handfull of snakes.
ive seen ppl come to shows with a table full of pastels and by the end of the day they are 100$ tops for females and thats a small time breeder.

technically if you look at it how many ppl in this thread have ever sold a snake for big guy prices? probally none but would that be price crashing when your selling something less than what everyone else does for a profit.

what would you call nerd or bhb or anyone else that charge alot more for a snake that any number of breeders? are they then ripping ppl off or are they trying to set prices.

I sold a couple of Pieds this year for $2000....

... and a few more in the 1600-1900 range.

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Originally Posted by janeothejungle

Really? So if we stopped importing today all my snakes would disappear with a poof? NO. Wake up. At what point is enough enough? If we already have a sustainable gene pool within a captive population, why keep importing in such huge numbers? I'm not against all importing, I AM against the sheer greed that has been going on for the last few years as more and more middlemen try and make a quick buck.


~Kat

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I am with Kat on this. Leopard geckos used to by imported into this country in the thousands every year. They haven’t been imported in about ten years now. I sure haven’t seen a shortage of Leopard Geckos lately or any shortage of very cool morphs to choose from. It is time to limit the importation of Captive Hatched and Wild Caught Ball Pythons now. As far as selling Wild Caught Gravid Females goes, only the truly worse of the worse would offer those. :colbert:

Buy Captive Bred and Born from a real breeder and just say NO to a Flipper now!:salute:

I wonder if the conflict in the native habitat of leopard geckos might have something to do with their not being imported at the moment.

Also, one thing a lot, ok, ALL of the posters to date have missed, is that it isn't JUST us, here in the USA, that are involved in selling ball pythons for money. You people are awfully egocentric.

What about Ongo and Tongo and their families who, if these two brave snake hunters don't go catch snakes? What about them?

IF you don't want imports being sent in that's fine, don't buy them. Make loud noises and snub those who do. Make blanket statements that you won't buy from people who deal in imports whether they be gravid or not.

Of course, unless you're a hypocritical sack of crap, you KNOW that the snakes YOU have came from imports and/or gravid females. How come it's OK for YOU to have them but not the next wave of regius keepers? You've got yours so screw the newbs eh? Very cool of you.

And flippers, yes we're terrible. I say we because I buy and flip maybe a dozen or so balls every year. Sometimes more, sometimes less. I suppose guys buying corns by the hundred lot and garters by the thousand and flipping them are better somehow but I can't figure out how.

I do a lot of west coast shows and have NEVER been to one that was totally CBB no matter what the advertisements say. LLL, reptile depot, and a couple of other guys are ALWAYS there and they are FLIPPERS, importers, and I, personally, do NO business with them because of the WAY they treat their animals not their origins. Of course customer service also plays a part in my not doing business with them, but that is another issue.

If my choice were to feed my family by selling a legally collected animal or having them starve, you can bet your bottom dollar I'd be catching snakes.

Some of you have presented well thought out points of view, somewhat narrow perhaps, but the thought is evident.

Some of you are fence posts looking for cement.

Before you condemn someone for doing what you say you would not, be sure the origins of your animals do not violate your standards, or, supposed standards, the ones you proclaim in public.

Pardon me for standing on my soapbox... I try to dust it off now and then...

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Originally Posted by janeothejungle

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Originally Posted by Lateralus_Love

importing helps regulate the Ball Python populations in Africa. If we didn't import them for pets, they'd still be caught and sold for their skins or meat.

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I'm getting really tired of hearing this as an excuse to keep enabling importation. If we didn't take 'em, someone else would. There is nothing to support this claim either, and I, for one, have a hard time seeing export at the current numbers if a large market suddenly dried up. Maybe it would go on for a year or two at best, but ultimately not at the current trend.

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Originally Posted by simplechamp

Maybe taking WC gravids out of the wild is harmful. Maybe taking them is a service to the species to stop overpopulation. But until there is enough evidence to prove anything it's probably best to leave the WC gravids alone and in the wild, and let mother nature decide what happens.

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You know, I just shake my head everytime somebody - in any situation, like WC bp's, deer hunting, moose hunting or whatever - tries to justify it by saying, "we're just trying to control the population." or "we're trying to promote species health through survival of the fittest".
Population control and strength of the species is something Mother Nature is designed for. Anything we do to change nature's design has to be thought of long and hard because anything we do has environmental impacts all over that, unless we are experts on the field, can have drastic and sometimes irreparable undesired results. This news item is a perfect example of this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090113/...it_infestation

So, I tend to throw all those amateur "controlling population" reasons to the junk pile as some idiot trying to justify his idiot behavior without even bothering to really understand what they are trying to do. Too much to do, too little time, ya know.

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Originally Posted by janeothejungle

And yet you would still end up producing norms, or hets.



Really? So if we stopped importing today all my snakes would disappear with a poof? NO. Wake up. At what point is enough enough? If we already have a sustainable gene pool within a captive population, why keep importing in such huge numbers? I'm not against all importing, I AM against the sheer greed that has been going on for the last few years as more and more middlemen try and make a quick buck.


~Kat

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You did miss my point. But another way i look at is the people of africa can either collect and sell these snakes for money to live on, or they can eat them to live off of.

I am on the fence of importing, there are always two compelling sides...and there always evils on both sides.

And the person i quoted didn't specify a point in time.

This whole snake business is very similar to the mafia!

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Originally Posted by Albey

I am with Kat on this. Leopard geckos used to by imported into this country in the thousands every year. They haven’t been imported in about ten years now. I sure haven’t seen a shortage of Leopard Geckos lately or any shortage of very cool morphs to choose from. It is time to limit the importation of Captive Hatched and Wild Caught Ball Pythons now. As far as selling Wild Caught Gravid Females goes, only the truly worse of the worse would offer those. :colbert:

Buy Captive Bred and Born from a real breeder and just say NO to a Flipper now!:salute:

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Fantastic post Albey!

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Originally Posted by Albey

I am with Kat on this. Leopard geckos used to by imported into this country in the thousands every year. They haven’t been imported in about ten years now. I sure haven’t seen a shortage of Leopard Geckos lately or any shortage of very cool morphs to choose from. It is time to limit the importation of Captive Hatched and Wild Caught Ball Pythons now. As far as selling Wild Caught Gravid Females goes, only the truly worse of the worse would offer those. :colbert:

Buy Captive Bred and Born from a real breeder and just say NO to a Flipper now!:salute:

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QFT :gj:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Also, one thing a lot, ok, ALL of the posters to date have missed, is that it isn't JUST us, here in the USA, that are involved in selling ball pythons for money. You people are awfully egocentric.

What about Ongo and Tongo and their families who, if these two brave snake hunters don't go catch snakes? What about them?

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Yep, that's what my mother always says... "eat your food! There are a lot of starving kids in China, you know"
:D

Okay, just so you know, I have no objection to WC, gravid or otherwise, only because I think capitalism and the free market can regulate itself if left alone. I, personally, will not purchase WC or CH, unless the snake is really stunning and is not available otherwise. So, anybody flipping WC obviously has a market otherwise, they wouldn't find money in doing it. As long as the market is available, it will continue... it will eventually dry out once people get more education on the cons of WC versus CB or when the time comes that we can find the same exact snakes locally at the price we are willing to pay for. Regulation is fine, but it is not efficient... we know this by the perfect example of ASF's being illegal in Georgia. The government is too slow to react to market changes and hobby maturation.

the next step of limiting would be limiting how many are produced in captivity.

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Originally Posted by redpython

the next step of limiting would be limiting how many are produced in captivity.

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I've never heard of that happening. Do you know of any species that they restrict how many are produced in captivity?

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Originally Posted by redpython

the next step of limiting would be limiting how many are produced in captivity.

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Sure isn't stopping the Leopard Gecko breeders...

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Originally Posted by anatess

Pardon me for standing on my soapbox... I try to dust it off now and then...





You know, I just shake my head everytime somebody - in any situation, like WC bp's, deer hunting, moose hunting or whatever - tries to justify it by saying, "we're just trying to control the population." or "we're trying to promote species health through survival of the fittest".
Population control and strength of the species is something Mother Nature is designed for. Anything we do to change nature's design has to be thought of long and hard because anything we do has environmental impacts all over that, unless we are experts on the field, can have drastic and sometimes irreparable undesired results. This news item is a perfect example of this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090113/...it_infestation

So, I tend to throw all those amateur "controlling population" reasons to the junk pile as some idiot trying to justify his idiot behavior without even bothering to really understand what they are trying to do. Too much to do, too little time, ya know.

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this post is so unfounded and the link is utter crap if you read it they rounded up every cat on the island this by now means compares to that.

as for hunting every person who hunts my farm limits out every year LEGALLY and the last day of the season i saw another 30+ deer going to my place. and these animals will do just what your article says they would strip the land and make all other animals die off! if you wanna spend more time worrying about something perhaps you should worry more about deforestation world wide.

also then if all that goes together why dont we stop feeding other nations! let them starve also its not our fault they overpopulated

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Originally Posted by redpython

the next step of limiting would be limiting how many are produced in captivity.

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It could go the way of Ca. Native Reptiles. I have to have a permit to breed and sell them. To get that permit I have to tell fish and game how many of each species I have, how many eggs are laid, how many of those eggs hatch and to whom I sell those babies. This has been going on for 20 years now but it is only one step away from limiting how many I can produce.

It already limits how many I can have and stipulates a time limit in which I must disperse the babies I have produced.

I suspect that were something along those lines written for ball pythons it would be more not less, restrictive.

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Originally Posted by nixer

this post is so unfounded and the link is utter crap if you read it they rounded up every cat on the island this by now means compares to that.

as for hunting every person who hunts my farm limits out every year LEGALLY and the last day of the season i saw another 30+ deer going to my place. and these animals will do just what your article says they would strip the land and make all other animals die off! if you wanna spend more time worrying about something perhaps you should worry more about deforestation world wide.

also then if all that goes together why dont we stop feeding other nations! let them starve also its not our fault they overpopulated

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I wonder if you ever wondered if the rabbits themselves were native to that island....

I for one refuse to make a blanket statement about flippers. There are good and bad flippers just like there are good and bad breeders. I have seen many breeders selling sickly animals that are in terrible health and I have seen many flippers that take outstanding care of the animals they have while they are in their possession. So it really aint a matter of flipper or breeder, but rather a matter of whether the individual person is taking proper care of the animals in their care or not.

So with that being said, any flipper who takes proper care of the animals they are selling, and does not ever sell sickly animals then I dont have a problem with them. How can any of us in this day and age have a problem with anyone who is out there trying to make an honest living?

Now if you are knowingly selling sickly animals, then you need to be taken out behind the show and have the boots put to you in my humble opinion. Breeder or flipper alike.

With all that being said, I dont deal in WC/CH and I dont resell other people's animals. I also look to buy from small and medium breeders. I think they deserve to be rewarded for the hard work they have put in and more often than not my $250-$2500 to a small guy might mean the difference in being able to make the mortgage payment that month. Where as with the long established big guys that $250-$2500 is just more icing on their cake.

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Originally Posted by Shrap

I for one refuse to make a blanket statement about flippers. There are good and bad flippers just like there are good and bad breeders. I have seen many breeders selling sickly animals that are in terrible health and I have seen many flippers that take outstanding care of the animals they have while they are in their possession. So it really aint a matter of flipper or breeder, but rather a matter of whether the individual person is taking proper care of the animals in their care or not.

So with that being said, any flipper who takes proper care of the animals they are selling, and does not ever sell sickly animals then I dont have a problem with them. How can any of us in this day and age have a problem with anyone who is out there trying to make an honest living?

Now if you are knowingly selling sickly animals, then you need to be taken out behind the show and have the boots put to you in my humble opinion. Breeder or flipper alike.

With all that being said, I dont deal in WC/CH and I dont resell other people's animals. I also look to buy from small and medium breeders. I think they deserve to be rewarded for the hard work they have put in and more often than not my $250-$2500 to a small guy might mean the difference in being able to make the mortgage payment that month. Where as with the long established big guys that $250-$2500 is just more icing on their cake.

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this post hits the nail on the head!

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I wonder if you ever wondered if the rabbits themselves were native to that island....

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they probally were not

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I wonder if the conflict in the native habitat of leopard geckos might have something to do with their not being imported at the moment.

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What does the reason they are not imported have to do with anything? The fact that they are not imported yet there are more than enough to satisfy the demand says it all. With the tremendous amount of Ball Pythons already in this country there is no reason to continue to import more than a few hundred or so a year, if that. Oh by the way, every Leopard Gecko I have ever bought was purchased directly form the breeder that produced it.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

IF you don't want imports being sent in that's fine, don't buy them. Make loud noises and snub those who do. Make blanket statements that you won't buy from people who deal in imports whether they be gravid or not.

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I wont buy them, I do make loud noises and snub those that do, and I personally do not do business with anyone that deals in imports.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Of course, unless you're a hypocritical sack of crap, you KNOW that the snakes YOU have came from imports and/or gravid females. How come it's OK for YOU to have them but not the next wave of regius keepers? You've got yours so screw the newbs eh? Very cool of you.

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Unless of course YOU are an absolute idiot that thinks every Ball python that has been sold in the last five years was imported YOU would know that a lot of incredible breeders have been producing Morphs and cool looking normals to sell. Every Ball Python in my collection was bought from one of those breeders and will continue to be. As far as the next wave of regius and Newbs go, they have multi trait morphs available to them that I could only dream about at prices that are incredibly less than I paid for my one trait Morphs. The main reason they are so much cheaper of course is mostly the fault of Flippers and the other Market crashers out there.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

And flippers, yes we're terrible. I say we because I buy and flip maybe a dozen or so balls every year. Sometimes more, sometimes less. I suppose guys buying corns by the hundred lot and garters by the thousand and flipping them are better somehow but I can't figure out how.

I do a lot of west coast shows and have NEVER been to one that was totally CBB no matter what the advertisements say. LLL, reptile depot, and a couple of other guys are ALWAYS there and they are FLIPPERS, importers, and I, personally, do NO business with them because of the WAY they treat their animals not their origins. Of course customer service also plays a part in my not doing business with them, but that is another issue.

If my choice were to feed my family by selling a legally collected animal or having them starve, you can bet your bottom dollar I'd be catching snakes.

Some of you have presented well thought out points of view, somewhat narrow perhaps, but the thought is evident.

Some of you are fence posts looking for cement.

Before you condemn someone for doing what you say you would not, be sure the origins of your animals do not violate your standards, or, supposed standards, the ones you proclaim in public.

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Don’t worry I will not be buying anything from you or any of those other companies you just listed.:gj:

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Originally Posted by nixer

they probally were not

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Does the fact that the rabbits as well as the cats are non-native make you have any other thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Albey

Don’t worry I will not be buying anything from you or any of those other companies you just listed.:gj:

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Another way of saying "I believe everything you say, I agree with you, but I don't like you enough to out and out say so because others who don't like you might think I'm like you and I'm not, even though I agree with you and think you are correct."

I'm cool with that. You're hardly the first.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Another way of saying "I believe everything you say, I agree with you, but I don't like you enough to out and out say so because others who don't like you might think I'm like you and I'm not, even though I agree with you and think you are correct."

I'm cool with that. You're hardly the first.

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Well you know I love you, Wes!! And you know my love is true, because I still love you whether we agree or not.

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Originally Posted by Albey

The main reason they are so much cheaper of course is mostly the fault of Flippers and the other Market crashers out there.

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so you dont think supply and demand and the economy has anything to do with it at all? i think if it came between me and my family needs and buying snakes i think imma go with the family.

also note that lets say we had 100million ppl how many ppl out of that like lessers maybe 1/3 well once those 1/3 get lessers and breed them now we have lots of lessers that the other 2/3 doesnt want. at that point what choices do you have?

personally i think that not all the flippers are bad. some dont care for their animals properly. also how many snakes in some large collections have been forgot about! ive heard stories from many different ppl about pretty much every big breeder out there and some of those stories are to similar to not be true! just as much ive heard so many lies.

also why is it that we have to have all these personal attacks just during a discussion?

and no wes my thoughts on that were perhaps they shouldnt be starting backfires!

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Originally Posted by nixer

and no wes my thoughts on that were perhaps they shouldnt be starting backfires!

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At least you're thinking.

Ponder this though: what if no cats or rabbits had been introduced to that island?

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Originally Posted by Shrap

Well you know I love you, Wes!! And you know my love is true, because I still love you whether we agree or not.

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Always and forever.

there sure would be a bunch of rats!!!

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Originally Posted by grammie

there sure would be a bunch of rats!!!

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Which were stranded on that island by who?

did you do that??

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Originally Posted by grammie

did you do that??

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Possibly one of my piratically inclined forebears did but, alas, twere not I personal like what done the deed.

The point I'm trying to get across, hoping against hope that nixer would find it on his own, knowing deep down he wouldn't, but hopeful nonetheless, is that people are the root of most issues involving living animals be it introduced species or harvesting of any animal. When you factor in the desire for profit of some and the need to eat of others, combine those with a customer base willing to spend you get what we have here, everything that can possibly make a penny being used to do just that.

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

I guess that part I left out... was that if a person was committed to the snakes after the fact, and did rehab them and get them back on track then it would not be as bad for me.

I mean we hate people that do this, but we all LOVE seeing the new morphs that come out of Africa... so I guess that is why I have no set opinion on it.

If I am going to hate anyone that brings in a WC, then I have to hate anyone that imports a WC morph as well.

Just my 0.02 cents.

Bruce

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I feel the sameway about this matter

i know whats your getting at wes i let it out on purpose

Abbey,

so if an importer brought in a rainbow striped ball python, one that was WC, and came to you w/ a deal of a life time on it...you wouldn't buy it cause it was WC?

I dont think people realize that these big breeders flip, buy imports, etc. I am not saying its wrong, it's how it works.

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Originally Posted by redpython

Abbey,

so if an importer brought in a rainbow striped ball python, one that was WC, and came to you w/ a deal of a life time on it...you wouldn't buy it cause it was WC?

I dont think people realize that these big breeders flip, buy imports, etc. I am not saying its wrong, it's how it works.

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yeah but there is only 1 rainbow striped ball python, that make it different ;).

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Originally Posted by AaronP

yeah but there is only 1 rainbow striped ball python, that make it different ;).

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Gotta love a guy with flexible standards.

As long as you benefit, it's ok.

Sigh...

I'm not against the importation of visually different animals. But the importation of normals is useless.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Gotta love a guy with flexible standards.

As long as you benefit, it's ok.

Sigh...

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I don't disagree with importing, I disagree with importing gravids. I don't see the need to do mass importing of normals because as far as I can tell we pretty much got that ourselves. However importing gravid ANYTHING, I think that's screwed up.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

I don't disagree with importing, I disagree with importing gravids. I don't see the need to do mass importing of normals because as far as I can tell we pretty much got that ourselves. However importing gravid ANYTHING, I think that's screwed up.

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UNLESS that gravid is something you want.

Here's reality. There IS a market for them whether or not you buy them. Why not strive to have them properly treated instead of not imported at all? Why not put YOUR ego aside, why not put YOUR feelings aside, why not put YOUR agenda aside, and be on the side of these girls who ARE going to be here whether you will it so or not.

I do understand your stand, both sides of it. I just think it's sort of silly to think it will stop just because it should.

We should all be in vehicles which do not poison the air we breathe, but where's the profit in that? It's far cheaper and more profitable to stay the norm and buy carbon credits instead of actually doing the right thing.

One at a time can make a difference on a small scale that may in time make a signifigant difference but in the mean time why not realize it will happen, shift gears, and try to make a positive difference in the lives of these reptiles we all care about so much?

Why condemn everyone? Why the hate?

As my esteemed colleague Master Shrap has said, some of the guys importing take dang fine care of the girls once they arrive. Do they deserve no credit for being the good keepers they are solely because they market animals? Or is it solely because they market ball pythons, which are near and dear to many here?

It won't stop. So what now?

Why import them to begin with? You're taking not only a WC animal which are TERRIBLE to begin with but a gravid one. That's easily ten times the stress of being a normal non-gravid animal. I don't think it's terrible, I don't think it's ethical. I'll do my part by not buying these animals and discouraging others from buying them.

Do you have any personal experience with these wild caught gravids?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Why condemn everyone? Why the hate?

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That is what I cant understand, why the hatred? I can understand the anger if people are selling crap animals, but if they selling nice healthy accurately represented animals... what is the problem? I thought the more people selling healthy accurately represented animals the better.

I aint saying you have to buy from them, I typically dont, but I certainly have no problem with anyone making an honest living selling healthy accurately represented animals.

I know the Ed Clarks of the world give every reseller a bad name, but every re-seller deserves to be judged on their own merits and not stigmatized because of the bad deeds of others. Hell, every human being deserves that.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Do you have any personal experience with these wild caught gravids?

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I personally don't but I have with worked with many wild caught and frankly I can't imagine a WC Gravid being any different.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

I personally don't but I have with worked with many wild caught and frankly I can't imagine a WC Gravid being any different.

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They just have nicer dispositions.....

Can everyone agree on at least one thing.
Agree to disagree!
Be happy that we all have homes, and can offer our homes to these wonderful reptiles. We are all here because one day we wandered around the internet looking for a place where other people loved the reptiles that we do. How our animals came to us is not the big picture, it is loving that new snake smell, the excitement of the first snake you brought home, you didn't care where it came from, you just cared that you had this amazing animal to share your life with.

Now would it be so different if I where to go to a place I know that has tons of bull snakes and catch them to sell, or maby go to the nesting areas during that time of year and collect eggs? I could "save" so many from the locals who all they see is a snake that will hurt them/livestock.

The suply must not fit the demand, I have been trying to buy another bp from my local stores, but since I got my first one, I have not seen any more in the stores. Going price for a normal around here is $69. Sell your snakes out here if you want to make more than $20.

If you don't like WC don't buy them. If you do like WC buy them. Just take good care of them. Just don't keep fighting about who is right and who is wrong, in that battle there is no winner.

You are all such wonderful people in your own ways, if we where all the same , how boring would it be?

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Originally Posted by AaronP

I personally don't but I have with worked with many wild caught and frankly I can't imagine a WC Gravid being any different.

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I have no experience with snowboarding but boy does my imagination have some ideas.

Your opinion is suspect at best, laughable at least, and pathetic in general. You don't know squat from personal experience but are ready to condemn those who do.

Are you, by chance, a graduate of rutgers?