Buyers beware!

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Originally Posted by Pandora

x2



Well now that I know how you feel about the proper treatment of animals... *knows better than to type what she's thinking* for shame...

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I know how you feel....

ohh BTW i dont know what happened to the snake yet, i think broadude said that b/c I hadnt answered yet and I have a new healthy snake that is doing magnificent in his new enclosure

And still goes without answering the other million and a half questions asked.

Seriously, not off to a good start.

Hi,

If it helps you have gallery space on this site as well - ask any of the staff if you need help getting the pics up using it and we will try our best to help.

I think the part that makes everyone want to know what happened, yourself included I imagine, was the sheer speed with which the animal passed from healthy to deceased. :(

Most of the common problems just don't progress that fast and the ones that do are mostly environmental (toxins, overheating, trauma, congenital defects etc etc).


dr del

I am sorry for your loss.

Just by your description I would venture to guess two heat lamps and an UTH on a 10 gallon tank was probably too hot. Did you check the temperature inside the hide?

Anyway without a necropsy you'll never really know -- since the snake seemed alert and healthy at the show and it wasn't apparent to you that there was something wrong then you can't really blame the seller either. It does seem like he did a fair job at trying to make it right.

Good luck with your new snake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by numba1stuna8162

Humm let’s see...where to start? Well let’s see, I am a little upset at all the assumptions and accusations going around, definitely did not expect that from this forum, but that’s beside the point. It’s also funny how if I happen to be away from my computer for any length of time, and don’t offer a reply within two seconds of someone’s post (Pandora, joepythons), all of a sudden I’m responsible for the death of the snake, I’m this horrible person, and you want to get angry. Sorry, I have a job and I have a life, just because I don’t reply to posts every 3 hours is irrelevant to me ( and the point remains that I did reply).

Next, as far as the quarantining process, why is that such a big deal? You all act like I put her in a small fish bowl with paper towels and no heat. And since apparently I need to reveal every minute detail about the quarantine, I will do that right now. I got the snake home, took her out of her tiny tube that she was sold to me in, you know the clear plastic tubs that you often see snakes being sold in at reptile expos? I put her into a separate, not the actual tank I had setup as her actual home, a separate 10 gallon tank that I prepared the night before, that day would be Friday, January 9th.

On Friday night, I cleaned the empty 10 gallon aquarium(remember she is about or less than a foot long) with a 5% bleach solution and let it sit for 5 minutes, then I came back rinsed the tank out with hot water (made sure the UTH did not get wet b/c I am sure someone is gonna jump to conclusions and say u messed up the UTH by getting it wet, the snake froze to death, its your fault, stop flaming the breeder) dried it and let it sit for 1 hour. After the tank sat for an hour I put about three layers of white paper towels down in the bottom of the tank, then I put in two identical hides which also were cleaned prior to being put in the aquarium, one on the cool side and one on the hot side. Then I put a medium sized water bowl in the middle of the tank between hides, and a piece of driftwood on the hot side. Finally, I put a screen top on the aquarium and put two heat lamps on top, one on the cool side, one on the hot side. I let the hot side lamp heat up and with two digital thermometers with probes, watched the temps, hot side was at a constant 90, cool side read 82, and digital hygrometer was at constant 52%. I also have fish tank thermometers stuck to the back of the aquarium about 2 inches above the ground on both sides which measured same temps as probed thermos.

Let me restate myself, the purpose of putting her in this separate tank was to make sure she did not have mites, yes I could have done that at the show, but you have to understand that the Havre de Grace show is in a tiny community center and is packed with people looking over your shoulders at other snakes, bumping you, noisy, and the lighting is not that good, so seeing tiny mites on your hand in this environment is not as easy as say….in a 10 gallon tank with white paper towels and proper lighting. I still did a good examination of the snake at the show which is why I said everything about her seemed to be healthy, unless I could have missed something which I never denied however it is still the breeders job to not sell unhealthy snakes, unless of course he didn’t realize that the snake was sick, then we are both just out of luck.

Anyway this is getting long so I’m wrapping it up, I get the snake home…btw in addition to me cupping the snake’s container in my hands for warmth on the ride home, I obviously had the heat on in the car, so whoever wrote that cupping my hands isn’t sufficient heating, umm I don’t know what to say to you, I figured that me having the heat on in the car was a given…but I guess not. Moving on, I get home put the snake in the 10 gallon tank, AGAIN I am checking for mites NOT treating for them, with that said there were no chemicals put in the cage, no chemicals used on the snake, no nothing!! So like I said I put her in the tank, watch her explore for a couple of minutes maybe 10, check temps and humidity, they are perfect, I walk away, grab some food and watch tv for 30 minutes, come back look under the warm side hide (which btw isn’t right above the UTH) and she is laying there on her side lifeless and limp.. I hope that explains everything and I am done with my trial. I came here looking for a since of community in trying to figure out what happened to my snake for it to go so suddenly and deduce some possible answers, not for ppl to take sides on this and that, point fingers, get angry, assume and jump to conclusions. I hope to God that the government doesn’t make it a Federal law not to own snakes because we wouldn’t be able to come together as a community to fight that law based off of what I’ve seen in the past few hours since I posted this. All that I care about and to me the most important thing is that there is a dead ball python and I want to figure out why this happened. As far as broadude, I reached out to her and she reached back and that is why she has pictures and knows the ins and outs of the whole ordeal…she also has pictures because I could send them to her email, and I don’t have photobucket so I cannot put them up here, yet. Also broadude, thank you so much for all your help and everything, I really appreciate it!!

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Hmm all this and still not sharing the real reason she died :confused:.Well fact is you trash mouthed a person for no reason and thats all no more no less.

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Originally Posted by numba1stuna8162

ohh BTW i dont know what happened to the snake yet, i think broadude said that b/c I hadnt answered yet and I have a new healthy snake that is doing magnificent in his new enclosure

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Hmm since you did not respond back she just came up with the reason how your snake died huh???:rolleyes: Once again this thread is a big waste of our sites space on the web :weirdface

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Originally Posted by numba1stuna8162

I came here looking for a since of community in trying to figure out what happened to my snake for it to go so suddenly and deduce some possible answers...

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Guess I missed that part.

My bad.

Bruce

Quote:

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Originally Posted by numba1stuna8162

Humm let’s see...where to start? Well let’s see, I am a little upset at all the assumptions and accusations going around, definitely did not expect that from this forum, but that’s beside the point. It’s also funny how if I happen to be away from my computer for any length of time, and don’t offer a reply within two seconds of someone’s post (Pandora, joepythons), all of a sudden I’m responsible for the death of the snake, I’m this horrible person, and you want to get angry. Sorry, I have a job and I have a life, just because I don’t reply to posts every 3 hours is irrelevant to me ( and the point remains that I did reply).

Next, as far as the quarantining process, why is that such a big deal? You all act like I put her in a small fish bowl with paper towels and no heat. And since apparently I need to reveal every minute detail about the quarantine, I will do that right now. I got the snake home, took her out of her tiny tube that she was sold to me in, you know the clear plastic tubs that you often see snakes being sold in at reptile expos? I put her into a separate, not the actual tank I had setup as her actual home, a separate 10 gallon tank that I prepared the night before, that day would be Friday, January 9th.

On Friday night, I cleaned the empty 10 gallon aquarium(remember she is about or less than a foot long) with a 5% bleach solution and let it sit for 5 minutes, then I came back rinsed the tank out with hot water (made sure the UTH did not get wet b/c I am sure someone is gonna jump to conclusions and say u messed up the UTH by getting it wet, the snake froze to death, its your fault, stop flaming the breeder) dried it and let it sit for 1 hour. After the tank sat for an hour I put about three layers of white paper towels down in the bottom of the tank, then I put in two identical hides which also were cleaned prior to being put in the aquarium, one on the cool side and one on the hot side. Then I put a medium sized water bowl in the middle of the tank between hides, and a piece of driftwood on the hot side. Finally, I put a screen top on the aquarium and put two heat lamps on top, one on the cool side, one on the hot side. I let the hot side lamp heat up and with two digital thermometers with probes, watched the temps, hot side was at a constant 90, cool side read 82, and digital hygrometer was at constant 52%. I also have fish tank thermometers stuck to the back of the aquarium about 2 inches above the ground on both sides which measured same temps as probed thermos.

Let me restate myself, the purpose of putting her in this separate tank was to make sure she did not have mites, yes I could have done that at the show, but you have to understand that the Havre de Grace show is in a tiny community center and is packed with people looking over your shoulders at other snakes, bumping you, noisy, and the lighting is not that good, so seeing tiny mites on your hand in this environment is not as easy as say….in a 10 gallon tank with white paper towels and proper lighting. I still did a good examination of the snake at the show which is why I said everything about her seemed to be healthy, unless I could have missed something which I never denied however it is still the breeders job to not sell unhealthy snakes, unless of course he didn’t realize that the snake was sick, then we are both just out of luck.

Anyway this is getting long so I’m wrapping it up, I get the snake home…btw in addition to me cupping the snake’s container in my hands for warmth on the ride home, I obviously had the heat on in the car, so whoever wrote that cupping my hands isn’t sufficient heating, umm I don’t know what to say to you, I figured that me having the heat on in the car was a given…but I guess not. Moving on, I get home put the snake in the 10 gallon tank, AGAIN I am checking for mites NOT treating for them, with that said there were no chemicals put in the cage, no chemicals used on the snake, no nothing!! So like I said I put her in the tank, watch her explore for a couple of minutes maybe 10, check temps and humidity, they are perfect, I walk away, grab some food and watch tv for 30 minutes, come back look under the warm side hide (which btw isn’t right above the UTH) and she is laying there on her side lifeless and limp.. I hope that explains everything and I am done with my trial. I came here looking for a since of community in trying to figure out what happened to my snake for it to go so suddenly and deduce some possible answers, not for ppl to take sides on this and that, point fingers, get angry, assume and jump to conclusions. I hope to God that the government doesn’t make it a Federal law not to own snakes because we wouldn’t be able to come together as a community to fight that law based off of what I’ve seen in the past few hours since I posted this. All that I care about and to me the most important thing is that there is a dead ball python and I want to figure out why this happened. As far as broadude, I reached out to her and she reached back and that is why she has pictures and knows the ins and outs of the whole ordeal…she also has pictures because I could send them to her email, and I don’t have photobucket so I cannot put them up here, yet. Also broadude, thank you so much for all your help and everything, I really appreciate it!!

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Generally this site treats people with a lot of respect and helpful information. However, when you make your first post as a very vague and difficult accusation against a breeder, we have the right to question. An accusation is a very very heavy thing in the reptile community. If one makes such an accusation, they need a lot of evidence and support because someones business and lifestyle is at stake. That's why fauna does everything they can to get all of the information on a scamming breeder so that they have hardcore evidence.
Unfortunately you gave us very little to work with, and came here with a lot of accusations from yourself with very little evidence or information to back it up.

The reason people became so upset, is because you accused the breeder of scamming you, when the snake was healthy looking when you got it, it died in such a short amount of time under unknown causes, he offered you a new snake and to pay the fee at the door of the show, discouraged shipping because of the cold and with a normal $50 charge, and you still blamed him for scamming. We did not see what the breeder did wrong. If the breeder refused to give you an animal, that would be a reason to accuse him.

Because we didn't see what the breeder did wrong, and the fact that you were making false accusations, we turned to the option of you pushing the blame on the breeder.

I'm not saying it's either of your faults for the death of the snake, and the death is always sad as we are sorry for your loss. Just trying to straighten things out.

By the way, IMO, Quarantine should only apply when there are other animals or snakes in a collection. Otherwise it virtually does not exist, as it is not needed and is impossible.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

Hmm since you did not respond back she just came up with the reason how your snake died huh???:rolleyes: Once again this thread is a big waste of our sites space on the web :weirdface

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I strongly suggest to not be so snappy towards the OP (everyone, not just you). It really isn't helping the situation, and doesn't make yourself look very good as well..

Does no one else see the issue with the bleach?

I have sanitized with bleach several times and the fewest amount of rinses I have had to do until I was satisfied was 4. Based on what he said, he only performed one, which would most likely leave bleach residue, which could kill a hatchling extremely quickly.

Now, just for some advice. If it isnt a quarantine, dont call it a quarantine. Also, you cannot diagnose mites in the matter of minutes, unless you luck out and happen to have one crawl off the snake...which is unlikely considering all of the commotion, probable bright lights, etc.

As for pictures....your account on this forum has a convenient photo server, which dr del so conveniently pointed out for you to use. If you remain active on this forum, use it.

On the note of accusations, and how heavy they fall in the reptile community in general, and even moreso on bp.net....I really dont think you understand how serious of an accusation this is, and how much respect and trust you will never have from a lot of people, myself included, because you jumped into the situation all hot and heavy.

And, in defense of the community here at bp.net, perhaps if you were not so quick to judge the breeder and let the bullets fly at him, we would not be so skeptical of your side of the story.


Also, to the OP, I apologize for my previous post about the unanswered questions. I did not realize you had responded to the thread until after it was quoted later.

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Originally Posted by ThyTempest

Does no one else see the issue with the bleach?

I have sanitized with bleach several times and the fewest amount of rinses I have had to do until I was satisfied was 4. Based on what he said, he only performed one, which would most likely leave bleach residue, which could kill a hatchling extremely quickly.

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Lots of people use bleach to clean their tanks, including me. He said 5% bleach, which is pretty much as diluted as it can get. I'm pretty sure he's not going to count how many times he rinsed it out, but the point is he did. I'm assuming that he's smart enough to do it more than once.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

I strongly suggest to not be so snappy towards the OP (everyone, not just you). It really isn't helping the situation, and doesn't make yourself look very good as well..

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I am not being snappy ;).Its called frustrated when questions being asked several times going unanswered :P.So back to the reason we all come here :gj:

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Originally Posted by numba1stuna8162

... I came here looking for a since of community in trying to figure out what happened to my snake for it to go so suddenly and deduce some possible answers, not for ppl to take sides on this and that, point fingers, get angry, assume and jump to conclusions...

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But isnt that what you did?
It didnt seem to me you came here looking for answes as to how the snake could have died.
Yes you explained the steps you took leading up to the snakes death, and then you jumpped all over the breeder, and pointed your finger at him. Blaming him. I believe you said "He obviously sold me a sick snake", Well my guess is that you're no certified VET. Sure there are signs that lead most of us to assume a snake is ill, and which is why people take them to VETs, to comfirm that is the case. I understand there is no chance in having your VET look over a snake until after you buy it. But then you should not jump the gun and say someone sold you a sick snake.

So the way I would have handled it would be to ask questions first. Find out if it could have been even the slightest chance my fault. Then take it from there.

I'm not taking sides, I'm just saying it should have been handled differently.

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Originally Posted by Pandora

Lots of people use bleach to clean their tanks, including me. He said 5% bleach, which is pretty much as diluted as it can get. I'm pretty sure he's not going to count how many times he rinsed it out, but the point is he did. I'm assuming that he's smart enough to do it more than once.

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Guess you have more faith in humanity than me...more power to ya. :)

Hey new snake owning genious, what, exactly, was/is the temp of the hot spot in your tank?

I would like to know what it was when you got your first snake and how you determined it and what it is now and how you determined that.

Thanks in advance.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Hey new snake owning genious, what, exactly, was/is the temp of the hot spot in your tank?

I would like to know what it was when you got your first snake and how you determined it and what it is now and how you determined that.

Thanks in advance.

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Too lazy to do the real quote, but the OP said....

Finally, I put a screen top on the aquarium and put two heat lamps on top, one on the cool side, one on the hot side. I let the hot side lamp heat up and with two digital thermometers with probes, watched the temps, hot side was at a constant 90, cool side read 82, and digital hygrometer was at constant 52%. I also have fish tank thermometers stuck to the back of the aquarium about 2 inches above the ground on both sides which measured same temps as probed thermos.

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

Just by your description I would venture to guess two heat lamps and an UTH on a 10 gallon tank was probably too hot. Did you check the temperature inside the hide?

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Not to keep beating a dead horse - but this would really be my concern too. I have one UTH on a thermostat and that keeps my 20 gallon tank at the right temps - I can't imagine how hot a uth without a thermomstat and two lamps would be.

The only reason I bring this up is because if that was the problem - then he's got another snake in the same kind of temps.

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Originally Posted by SecurityStacey

The only reason I bring this up is because if that was the problem - then he's got another snake in the same kind of temps.

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:gj:

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Originally Posted by SecurityStacey

Not to keep beating a dead horse - but this would really be my concern too. I have one UTH on a thermostat and that keeps my 20 gallon tank at the right temps - I can't imagine how hot a uth without a thermomstat and two lamps would be.

The only reason I bring this up is because if that was the problem - then he's got another snake in the same kind of temps.

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I was wondering about the UTH not being under the hot spot hide, but the temps in the hot spot hide being at 90+... so where is the UTH and what are the temps there?

Bruce

It looks to me like the seller will make this good. It also looks to me like you are just angry because you want to have instant gratification and don't want to wait. You purchased a baby normal snake and it died, which will sometimes unfortunately happen. If you had spent a large amount for an expensive morph I could understand your sense of urgency but I doubt if you spent very much for this snake. The seller is just using common sense by not wanting you to waste your money and his time on shipping a new one to you. You should not be urging people to avoid doing business with this guy based on what has occurred. You may cause people to not want to do business with you so they won't risk getting publicly slammed by you over nothing. That's how I see it anyway.

I have two concerns.
The OP stated that he had multiple thermometer sensors and the hot side was 90, and the cold side was 82. With TWO lamps and a UTH, on a TEN gallon tank. How do you even get two lamps on top of a 10 gallon tank? It sounds suspiciously to me like someone read the sticky and then repeated it. I'd challenge anyone to put two lamps on a 10G tank, with a UTH, and get no temp in the tank higher than 90F.

The second concern I have is that Broaddude came and implied that HE knew what killed the baby snake and it had been fixed and now the OP has a new snake, yet the OP stated that he didn't know, and doesn't know why Broaddude stated that. So.. why did Broaddude imply they knew? What was the point?

My best hopeful guess, after reading the OP's "explanation" was that he read the sticky, and tried to set up the tank acording to it. Once the tank was set up, he could put the baby in, then left for a short while(30 min? Longer perhaps?) And then the tank continued to heat up, because it had way more heat source than any 10G tank should ever have, and killed the baby.

IF that is the schenario, then it's a terrible mistake, but I don't understand the weird evasions, and don't understand why Broaddude would think it should all be considered just fine, without a apology from the OP for accusing the seller. The OP did not come asking for information, he came accusing a seller of scamming him, and selling him a sick snake. There is a HUGE differance.

What if he had bought the baby from one of the well-respected breeders here? Would it still be just fine?

In the herp business, all you really have is your good name. An attempt to destroy that, when they were in the wrong is MORE important to me than someone making a newbie mistake, tragic though the consequances ended up being. I don't want to browbeat the OP, but everyone should know not to throw accusations around and then think that it's all fine, just because they got a new snake to replace one they killed.

I have my baby Children's python in a 10 gallon tank. With a small UTH on one side and a light on the other ambient temp stays 82 during the day. I have to really watch it because if the sun in shining and the house warms up more than normal at all it's getting hot in that tank. I'm a beginner, but I know 2 lamps would make a 10 gallon way too hot, as I have to really watch mine with one. JMO

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Originally Posted by ThyTempest

I also have fish tank thermometers stuck to the back of the aquarium about 2 inches above the ground on both sides which measured same temps as probed thermos.

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Ok i forgot he said this part :oops:.Please correct me if i am wrong but snakes do not live in water :P.So those thermometers are useless when tring to read the temps for a snake :rolleyes:.To the OP of this thread please stick around and read our care sheet on keeping a ball python.If you have any questions please ask ok :gj:.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThyTempest

Too lazy to do the real quote, but the OP said....

Finally, I put a screen top on the aquarium and put two heat lamps on top, one on the cool side, one on the hot side. I let the hot side lamp heat up and with two digital thermometers with probes, watched the temps, hot side was at a constant 90, cool side read 82, and digital hygrometer was at constant 52%. I also have fish tank thermometers stuck to the back of the aquarium about 2 inches above the ground on both sides which measured same temps as probed thermos.

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The thing about asking someone in PARTICULAR a question is that one wishes THAT someone in particular to answer, not some trying to be helpful but not succeeding at all but good at using quotes member. Do you see what I'm getting at?

I'm looking for the OP to answer, NOT anyone else.

As far as the WOMAN who posts as a MAN that replaced the snake for him, she is a bit of an attention hound and REALLY wants people to think she knows A LOT about ball pythons. I'd pass on her snakes just because of the type of person she is.

Joe, a thermometer made for a fish tank will read the same dry as it does wet.

SO, back to my original query, meant ONLY for the OP, EXACTLY how did you reach your temps?

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I have two concerns.
The OP stated that he had multiple thermometer sensors and the hot side was 90, and the cold side was 82. With TWO lamps and a UTH, on a TEN gallon tank. How do you even get two lamps on top of a 10 gallon tank? It sounds suspiciously to me like someone read the sticky and then repeated it. I'd challenge anyone to put two lamps on a 10G tank, with a UTH, and get no temp in the tank higher than 90F.

The second concern I have is that Broaddude came and implied that HE knew what killed the baby snake and it had been fixed and now the OP has a new snake, yet the OP stated that he didn't know, and doesn't know why Broaddude stated that. So.. why did Broaddude imply they knew? What was the point?

My best hopeful guess, after reading the OP's "explanation" was that he read the sticky, and tried to set up the tank acording to it. Once the tank was set up, he could put the baby in, then left for a short while(30 min? Longer perhaps?) And then the tank continued to heat up, because it had way more heat source than any 10G tank should ever have, and killed the baby.

IF that is the schenario, then it's a terrible mistake, but I don't understand the weird evasions, and don't understand why Broaddude would think it should all be considered just fine, without a apology from the OP for accusing the seller. The OP did not come asking for information, he came accusing a seller of scamming him, and selling him a sick snake. There is a HUGE differance.

What if he had bought the baby from one of the well-respected breeders here? Would it still be just fine?

In the herp business, all you really have is your good name. An attempt to destroy that, when they were in the wrong is MORE important to me than someone making a newbie mistake, tragic though the consequances ended up being. I don't want to browbeat the OP, but everyone should know not to throw accusations around and then think that it's all fine, just because they got a new snake to replace one they killed.

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I could have not said it any better :gj:.The OP thinks were are all mean now i wonder how things would have been if he went to Faunaclassifieds and posted all this :P.I hope he/she sticks around and learns from his/her mistakes and fixes them for this other snake.Hey i have 13yrs experiance with numerouse snakes and i am still learning :gj:.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joepythons

Ok i forgot he said this part :oops:.Please correct me if i am wrong but snakes do not live in water :P.So those thermometers are useless when tring to read the temps for a snake :rolleyes:.To the OP of this thread please stick around and read our care sheet on keeping a ball python.If you have any questions please ask ok :gj:.

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He also said he had probed thermometers. If he had all the equipment he said he had, then he's got the most proper equipment as far as thermometers and lamps and UTH, etc of any newbie to ball pythons I've seen. Pity if it was all put on one 10G tank.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by broadude

I could post them, but why?


He's already been told why the animal died and what he did wrong. So the subject is closed..he has a new snake and is very happy with it. Maybe later, he'll come back.

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So why did you post this? If the OP says he doesn't know? Why would you think it is all okay and the subject is closed, when the seller is still accused of being a scammer? Why would you think you can close a subject just because the OP is now happy with a new snake that he may be killing with his set up RIGHT NOW?

I'm trying to understand your reasoning behind this. If you had sold him a snake and was accused of selling sick animals and having poor customer service after trying to offer a replacement, would you think it fair that someone else gives him another snake.. after apparently HE turned up responsible for killing the first one?

Responsible herpers should support each other, not tear them down and try to cover up for scamming buyers!

I have tried to find info on Adam Kuhn through the shows vendor listing.He does not have anything that i could find.I think its only fair that he knows about this thread.If any one can find a way to contact him before i do please inform him of this thread with a direct link.

Never mind i found his direct email addy :gj:.I have sent him a link to this thread.

Alright, because this seems to have been missed by a few others, Not all.... But quite a few (*edit* nevermind, it ended up being covered later by most)

What is the temperature of the ROOM you had the tank in? ( what was it at the time?)
What are the WATTAGES of the two bulbs on BOTH heat lamps?

Next! What size UTH did you have on the bottom of the tank, and did you have a thermostat plugged into this to regulate the temperature?

Sounds like things got too hot. Do you have ACCURATE gauges to measure the temps in all areas of the cage? ( A digital Thermometer, and or a Temp gun?) All of these questions, are important.

Wow....I'm guessing it's been ssoooo long since we've had any serious drama here that folks just can't help themselves but to jump into something at the first opportunity. So many instant assumptions on all sides....so many ready (anxiously eager, even) to assign blame immediately based on nothing more than those same assumptions.

Personally, I'd like to see everyone take a step back and a deep, cleansing breath and calm down. But I know y'all will do what you want, regardless of my wishes. :P

WHY did the snake die? NO ONE knows. If the snake looked as healthy and lively as the OP described when it was purchased, brought home and first put into its holding tank...then why on earth should the seller have "known" he was selling a sick snake? From what we've been given to go by, the seller could not have known the animal was in danger of imminent death any more than the buyer could. So, the seller (so far as we can tell from the meager facts given) should not be held responsible for the untimely and mysterious death of the snake. He has not "scammed" anyone, and we don't have a shred of evidence to suggest otherwise.....according to the OP's own words.

How the seller chooses to handle the matter after being made aware of the snake's immediate death is another matter entirely. Anyone with an ounce of decent business sense would want to make things right with their brand-new customer.....and, again based strictly on the OP's own words....it sounded to me like he did just that. Granted, it wasn't an immediate fix....and I can understand the frustration in being forced to wait for something the OP obviously had been working hard toward for a long time already.....but I don't see anything wrong with the offer that was made to help make things right again.

I'm frustrated with some members who seem anxious to jump on the blame bandwagon. Picking apart the OP and grilling him on ridiculous issues of semantics like "quarantine" or his reasons for using a separate holding tank initially. Personally, I thought it was a smart move, and I had done the exact same thing with my very first snake purchase so many years ago. IF the snake had mites, I didn't want them getting established in the complicated set-up....so he went into a much simpler set-up until I was confident he was fine and mite-free. Why should such a move earn him darts thrown at him?

People also need to be more patient when asking their questions and realize that not everyone is on here all hours of the day or refreshing the pages every few minutes. If an "inquiry" thread gets busy and 30 people are suddenly flinging questions left and right, is the OP suddenly a bad guy because he's not logged in to see all that activity being thrown his way??? A lot of questions and thread activity does NOT equal a reasonable amount of time passing for a response. :rolleyes:

This post seems to have caused a lot of consternation:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by broadude

I could post them, but why?


He's already been told why the animal died and what he did wrong. So the subject is closed..he has a new snake and is very happy with it. Maybe later, he'll come back.

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I'm going to go out on a very long, shaky limb here and see if I can get into broadude's head and guess what she meant. I believe she that because so many were so intent on throwing out reasons why the snake must have died and why it was automatically the boy's fault. "Y'all told him why the animal died and what he did wrong...so what else is there for him to say??? He has a new snake now and is happy and doesn't need the bother of these unreasonable accusations" <---- My interpretation of her words in that post.

All in all.....it's possible that the OP did something that caused the snake's death. Nothing wrong with wanting to get to the bottom of it by asking specific questions about heating methods in the 10g tank. But such questions don't need to be accusatory in nature. That doesn't help anyone learn anything.

It's also entirely probable that the snake died for reasons beyond any human control....either the seller's or the buyer's. So why all the heated finger-pointing??

To the OP......I'm sorry your snake died. I know that had to be very tough to experience. I hope you're willing to learn a little bit about communication on the 'Net and how to avoid getting involved in this sort of mud-fight in the future......and I deeply hope you're willing to closely examine your own actions and be willing to learn from them if you did make an error along the way. And I sincerely hope you'll stay around as a part of the community here to learn more and to make friends along the way. (Seems like you've already made a good one. ;) )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JLC

But such questions don't need to be accusatory in nature.

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With no offense, I could not disagree more.

Those in glass houses should not throw stones. The OP did exactly that.

I've been following this thread since it started and up until now decided not to post because I wanted to view it with more of a level head. In reality, NONE of us will ever know what exactly happened to the OP's BP until he gets a necropsy done by a qualified Vet. To the OP, if going to a Vet is too expensive for you, try a local Vet school, they tend to not charge as much since it's a learning facility. That will be your only 100% for sure way of knowing what happened. With that said, there may be a chance that the Vet/Vet Student can't find anything wrong, that it was just your BP's time to go. I am very sorry for your loss, and I can't imagine how hurt and disappointed you must be for this to be your first actual hands on experience with a snake. From the information that you gave us, it sounds to me like the Breeder was exercising good customer service by offering to give you another BP for free, and even going an extra mile to pay for your ticket to the show. As for the $50.00 shipping cost, that is about normal for shipping a live animal. When I had my spider BP shipped to me, it cost me $66.00 for shipping. Also, we don't know if that particular breeder is set up to ship based on the fact that a lot of us have never heard of this guy, and if he had given you the information that he -could- ship, that info was also not shared with us. Also, some breeders will refuse to ship live animals in cold weather. This isn't to antagonize you or to 'punish' you, it's for the safety of the animal. Could he ship it? Yes. But no matter how many heat packs he throws in with the snake, with the weather being how it is in the winter up north, it's not realistically possible to ship a 100% health guaranteed snake during this season.
I hope everything goes well with your new BP, and if you have any other questions/concerns about him, feel free to ask;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JLC

Wow....I'm guessing it's been ssoooo long since we've had any serious drama here that folks just can't help themselves but to jump into something at the first opportunity. So many instant assumptions on all sides....so many ready (anxiously eager, even) to assign blame immediately based on nothing more than those same assumptions.

Personally, I'd like to see everyone take a step back and a deep, cleansing breath and calm down. But I know y'all will do what you want, regardless of my wishes. :P

WHY did the snake die? NO ONE knows. If the snake looked as healthy and lively as the OP described when it was purchased, brought home and first put into its holding tank...then why on earth should the seller have "known" he was selling a sick snake? From what we've been given to go by, the seller could not have known the animal was in danger of imminent death any more than the buyer could. So, the seller (so far as we can tell from the meager facts given) should not be held responsible for the untimely and mysterious death of the snake. He has not "scammed" anyone, and we don't have a shred of evidence to suggest otherwise.....according to the OP's own words.

How the seller chooses to handle the matter after being made aware of the snake's immediate death is another matter entirely. Anyone with an ounce of decent business sense would want to make things right with their brand-new customer.....and, again based strictly on the OP's own words....it sounded to me like he did just that. Granted, it wasn't an immediate fix....and I can understand the frustration in being forced to wait for something the OP obviously had been working hard toward for a long time already.....but I don't see anything wrong with the offer that was made to help make things right again.

I'm frustrated with some members who seem anxious to jump on the blame bandwagon. Picking apart the OP and grilling him on ridiculous issues of semantics like "quarantine" or his reasons for using a separate holding tank initially. Personally, I thought it was a smart move, and I had done the exact same thing with my very first snake purchase so many years ago. IF the snake had mites, I didn't want them getting established in the complicated set-up....so he went into a much simpler set-up until I was confident he was fine and mite-free. Why should such a move earn him darts thrown at him?

People also need to be more patient when asking their questions and realize that not everyone is on here all hours of the day or refreshing the pages every few minutes. If an "inquiry" thread gets busy and 30 people are suddenly flinging questions left and right, is the OP suddenly a bad guy because he's not logged in to see all that activity being thrown his way??? A lot of questions and thread activity does NOT equal a reasonable amount of time passing for a response. :rolleyes:

This post seems to have caused a lot of consternation:


I'm going to go out on a very long, shaky limb here and see if I can get into broadude's head and guess what she meant. I believe she that because so many were so intent on throwing out reasons why the snake must have died and why it was automatically the boy's fault. "Y'all told him why the animal died and what he did wrong...so what else is there for him to say??? He has a new snake now and is happy and doesn't need the bother of these unreasonable accusations" <---- My interpretation of her words in that post.

All in all.....it's possible that the OP did something that caused the snake's death. Nothing wrong with wanting to get to the bottom of it by asking specific questions about heating methods in the 10g tank. But such questions don't need to be accusatory in nature. That doesn't help anyone learn anything.

It's also entirely probable that the snake died for reasons beyond any human control....either the seller's or the buyer's. So why all the heated finger-pointing??

To the OP......I'm sorry your snake died. I know that had to be very tough to experience. I hope you're willing to learn a little bit about communication on the 'Net and how to avoid getting involved in this sort of mud-fight in the future......and I deeply hope you're willing to closely examine your own actions and be willing to learn from them if you did make an error along the way. And I sincerely hope you'll stay around as a part of the community here to learn more and to make friends along the way. (Seems like you've already made a good one. ;) )

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You have a pretty good bead on me. Thanks :)

I have learned a long time ago..that no matter how many times I edit, change, repost, rearrange the words..there will always be SOME that misunderstand the intent behind the words. It's usually the more discerning that have read my posts for a long time and have noticed that I don't usually intentionally try to antagonize anyone...but there will always be those few that look/misunderstand/want to be antagonized.

When the OP contacted me to buy a snake, his snake had already been dead for a while and he wasn't sure if it was dead or hibernating (I assume he had never experienced a dead snake before).

Just going over the highpoints..nothing he said convinced me that he had done anything that hurt the snake so I encouraged him to post his EXPERIENCE. He posted a "Bad Guy" post. I over looked it because it was his FIRST time and I was hoping that people would see it for what it was...a novice's attempt to warn someone else. If he had proven to be wrong (I did tell him that I wanted him to post also because those with more experience than I could see the pics and judge for themselves). However, the thread did not go the way that I was hoping it would (the truth of the matter is that I SENT HIM TO FAUNA..where the older people are that might recognize what may be wrong...but he couldn't post, something about being unable to register.

So, I told him to post his experience here. I didn't have time to go in depth with all the things that might have gone wrong, and I was also hoping that people would ask the questions that I may have forgotten and try and help him pinpoint anything in his environment..I also saw pics of that and for a beginner it was realllly nice.

I met the young man, he showed me his identification..he has a job, he can afford to take care of the snake, however, the snake had been dead for quite a while and I believe that a necroposy would have been inconclusive at that point (so I didn't suggest one, I could have, probably should have, because I know that...everyone doesn't know about necropsy, scammers, etc.

I do hope he comes back too, he was very well-spoken, seemed very well rounded and nice. He wasn't angry about the snake..just very very sad and not understanding how it died. I did not get the impression that he was lying at any time and if he had dropped something on the snake or had it too hot, I am sure he would have admitted it. He wasn't trying to get a free snake, he was going to pay for it.

Wil: I am going to say this once, because you seem to be quite unobservant. I was hoping that you would figure it out sooner or later..but this is twice that you have mentioned my name in a negative way. FYI: It is a combination of my last name and first two intitals. I work for the Federal goverment, and that's the way the goverment usually condenses employees' names..it seemed the easy way to remember my user name at the time that I created my profile. There is no intent to mislead as my profile clearly indicates I am a woman. You also need to change your modus operani (sp), as you seem to have a habit of accusing people of seeking attention..when you are the one trying hardest to stir the pot.:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by broadude

You have a pretty good bead on me. Thanks :)

I have learned a long time ago..that no matter how many times I edit, change, repost, rearrange the words..there will always be SOME that misunderstand the intent behind the words. It's usually the more discerning that have read my posts for a long time and have noticed that I don't usually intentionally try to antagonize anyone...but there will always be those few that look/misunderstand/want to be antagonized.

When the OP contacted me to buy a snake, his snake had already been dead for a while and he wasn't sure if it was dead or hibernating (I assume he had never experienced a dead snake before).

Just going over the highpoints..nothing he said convinced me that he had done anything that hurt the snake so I encouraged him to post his EXPERIENCE. He posted a "Bad Guy" post. I over looked it because it was his FIRST time and I was hoping that people would see it for what it was...a novice's attempt to warn someone else. If he had proven to be wrong (I did tell him that I wanted him to post also because those with more experience than I could see the pics and judge for themselves). However, the thread did not go the way that I was hoping it would (the truth of the matter is that I SENT HIM TO FAUNA..where the older people are that might recognize what may be wrong...but he couldn't post, something about being unable to register.

So, I told him to post his experience here. I didn't have time to go in depth with all the things that might have gone wrong, and I was also hoping that people would ask the questions that I may have forgotten and try and help him pinpoint anything in his environment..I also saw pics of that and for a beginner it was realllly nice.

I met the young man, he showed me his identification..he has a job, he can afford to take care of the snake, however, the snake had been dead for quite a while and I believe that a necroposy would have been inconclusive at that point (so I didn't suggest one, I could have, probably should have, because I know that...everyone doesn't know about necropsy, scammers, etc.

I do hope he comes back too, he was very well-spoken, seemed very well rounded and nice. He wasn't angry about the snake..just very very sad and not understanding how it died. I did not get the impression that he was lying at any time and if he had dropped something on the snake or had it too hot, I am sure he would have admitted it. He wasn't trying to get a free snake, he was going to pay for it.

Wil: I am going to say this once, because you seem to be quite unobservant. I was hoping that you would figure it out sooner or later..but this is twice that you have mentioned my name in a negative way. FYI: It is a combination of my last name and first two intitals. I work for the Federal goverment, and that's the way the goverment usually condenses employees' names..it seemed the easy way to remember my user name at the time that I created my profile. There is no intent to mislead as my profile clearly indicates I am a woman. You also need to change your modus operani (sp), as you seem to have a habit of accusing people of seeking attention..when you are the one trying hardest to stir the pot.:rolleyes:

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That was much better.

So Broadude is a gal?! almost choked on my popcorn reading this thread.

I have to ask.... because while some may disagree, I think this is totally relevant. What kind of snake was it? Was it a normal ball python? how much did you pay for it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

So Broadude is a gal?! almost choked on my popcorn reading this thread.

I have to ask.... because while some may disagree, I think this is totally relevant. What kind of snake was it? Was it a normal ball python? how much did you pay for it?

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Ummmm...yep! Sorry to disappoint you. :oops:

Since he's not here and I do have the answers, if you don't mind, I'll answer and when/if he comes back he can correct any areas in which I am wrong.

The pictures that he showed me revealed a Normal hatchling (I shared the pic with a mod..they aren't my pics to post to everyone).

The price on the canister that the snake came in said 25.00 CBB, and he was willing to pay 50.00 for a replacement because that's how badly he wanted a BP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by broadude

The price on the canister that the snake came in said 25.00 CBB, and he was willing to pay 50.00 for a replacement because that's how badly he wanted a BP.

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Hold on one moment.In his OP he said the breeder was going to replace the snake for him at the next show.Now after you leading him he came here to slam the breeder.I dont understand how everyone else can go post on fauna but he was unable to :confused:.You said you wanted him to post on fauna because the people are "older" thier :weirdface.When did people get older by just going to fauna? Now you say everything is peachy because you sold him a snake,did you help correct his husbandry problems or just take his money :confused:.Just to be clear i am not taking a stab at you because of your gender,i am just confused by all the secretcy between you and the OP the last 24hrs here.One more thing if you and Wes dislike each other because of something that happened on fauna we dont need it here please ;).Now back to our FRIENDLY forum :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joepythons

Hold on one moment.In his OP he said the breeder was going to replace the snake for him at the next show.Now after you leading him he came here to slam the breeder.I dont understand how everyone else can go post on fauna but he was unable to :confused:.You said you wanted him to post on fauna because the people are "older" thier :weirdface.When did people get older by just going to fauna? Now you say everything is peachy because you sold him a snake,did you help correct his husbandry problems or just take his money :confused:.Just to be clear i am not taking a stab at you because of your gender,i am just confused by all the secretcy between you and the OP the last 24hrs here.One more thing if you and Wes dislike each other because of something that happened on fauna we dont need it here please ;).Now back to our FRIENDLY forum :P

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Please go re-read my post. It is too obvious that you didn't read it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by broadude

Please go re-read my post. It is too obvious that you didn't read it.

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Well what did i miss then????? I only read it 3 times before posting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joepythons

Now back to our FRIENDLY forum :P

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Lol....amen there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by broadude

The pictures that he showed me revealed a Normal hatchling

The price on the canister that the snake came in said 25.00 CBB

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Exactloy what I suspected. How dare this newbee come on here and slam a breeder in this situation. This breeder went above and beyond to guarantee his sale. It is a $25 dollar snake! The breeder immediately offered a replacement at the next show! ON TOP OF THAT THEY OFFERED TO PAY FOR THE NEXT SHOW!!!! Not to mention that most of us know that we are 99% certain the OP did something that killed this snake. If the snake appeared perfectly healthy at the show, there is no explanation that would explain an immediate death 30 minutes later... other then the OP doing something terribly wrong.

It is a shame that this thread will be allowed to stay. Anyone not willing to put the time into reading the whole thing will assume that the breeder is a rip off... When in fact it appears by this thread he has excellent customer service!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

... Not to mention that most of us know that we are 99% certain the OP did something that killed this snake. ...

It is a shame that this thread will be allowed to stay. Anyone not willing to put the time into reading the whole thing will assume that the breeder is a rip off... When in fact it appears by this thread he has excellent customer service!

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Mike, please don't try to speak for "most of us" because I"m quite sure that many of us are NOT sure the OP did something so horribly wrong. Sometimes baby snakes just die and no one ever knows why. I'm not saying he didn't, just that we have no way of knowing at this point.

Also....anyone reading the first post should be able to discern that the seller is a stand-up sort of guy. The OP says in his own words right in that first post how the seller offered to pay for the next show and give him a new snake. I really don't see what you find so offensive beyond the adolescent whining. :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JLC

Mike, please don't try to speak for "most of us" because I"m quite sure that many of us are NOT sure the OP did something so horribly wrong. Sometimes baby snakes just die and no one ever knows why. I'm not saying he didn't, just that we have no way of knowing at this point.

Also....anyone reading the first post should be able to discern that the seller is a stand-up sort of guy. The OP says in his own words right in that first post how the seller offered to pay for the next show and give him a new snake. I really don't see what you find so offensive beyond the adolescent whining. :rolleyes:

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Re-read the 100 or so posts on this thread again. "most of us" do believe that the snake didn't just drop dead 30 minutes after being purchased without the OP doing something wrong. That is a fact based on the replies so far... Not my personal opinion.

Perhaps you would feel differently about the offensiveness of this thread if you were the breeder. (I was not the breeder, I guess I am just better at putting myself in the breeders shoes).

Facts:

1.) Kid bought snake from said breeder.

2.) Snake died.

3.) Breeder offered to replace snake.

4.) Kid not happy with breeders offer.

5.) Kid communicates with forum member who directs kid to this site to flame breeder.

So who is to blame for all this drama?? :rolleyes:



P.S. sorry your snake died. Whatever happened I hope you have learned from it.

after reading every post in this ridiculous thread, my conclusions are here:

snakes don't die that quickly unless something is already wrong with them... BUT, the seller did nothing wrong if we can assume that he didn't knowingly sell a sick snake (which i don't believe he would).

stuff happens when it comes to exotic pets, the seller tried to make it right.
i'm a little surprised that more people don't realize that snakes can die for no apparent reason and may not ever show symptoms as to what is wrong. if you disagree, you probably should not keep reptiles because some day you will probably learn this the hard way.

It seems to me like yall are beatin a dead horse. The op is new to having and raising a snake, yall keep asking about his set-up which he explained and I didn't see a problem with.

Yes he did jump to the conclusion that it was the sellers fault.

The bottom line is sometimes things happen and they can't be explained.

I think is was great of Deb to step up and help the kid. now he has a new snake and it's doing well, and in a few weeks he can get the other one that the seller offered as replacement (if he chooses to).

The poor kid will probably NEVER come to this site again which is sad because I think he could learn alot from the members here.

This is supposed to be a helping/learning community, I wish people would keep that in mind when posting.

With all that said, can we just move on and give it a rest?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JLC

Mike, please don't try to speak for "most of us" because I"m quite sure that many of us are NOT sure the OP did something so horribly wrong. Sometimes baby snakes just die and no one ever knows why. I'm not saying he didn't, just that we have no way of knowing at this point.

Also....anyone reading the first post should be able to discern that the seller is a stand-up sort of guy. The OP says in his own words right in that first post how the seller offered to pay for the next show and give him a new snake. I really don't see what you find so offensive beyond the adolescent whining. :rolleyes:

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Judy when the OP started ignoring our requests for description of the setup and pics of the snake he pretty much made himself look guilty.He starts off saying he knows what he is doing then proves that he does not.I am speaking only for myself here but i think this thread should be removed.Why you ask,because it a false accusation towards the breeder ;).I still would have liked to see how the members of faunaclassifieds would have treated a thread like this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snakecharmer3638

Facts:

1.) Kid bought snake from said breeder.

2.) Snake died.

3.) Breeder offered to replace snake.

4.) Kid not happy with breeders offer.

5.) Kid communicates with forum member who directs kid to this site to flame breeder.

So who is to blame for all this drama?? :rolleyes:



P.S. sorry your snake died. Whatever happened I hope you have learned from it.

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You forgot the forum member sold him a snake