Feeding live rats (somewhat gruesome story beware plz)

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Originally Posted by dr del

What do you feed your cats?

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Owned.

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Don't take this the wrong way but I have to ask.

Given these quotes;







And your signature ( my bolding ) ;



What do you feed your cats?

dr del

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See, now what you did to socal here, is what the news dose when they show a story about someone they dont like, where they edit the video to make the person look bad/stupid/wrong. thats not really fair to do that.

And yes, i have no compassion for rats. they are dirty little creatures. also i live in nyc, and here rats are huge, dirty mean and they also carry the bubonic plauge. i just dont like them. and dont take that and twist it to say that i dont care about animals. its just rats.

Hi,

I like him fine. :)

The point I quoted was the main point he was making and arguing in this thread - I don't think I was out of line asking if he extended the same principle to a different pet.

If he doesn't then I also think it is fair to ask why - I am not trying to make him look stupid or bad I am trying to get him to look at the subject from a different angle.

Oh and while your local wild rats may indeed be huge and horrible they most definately do not carry bubonic plauge.

And I'm sure you know the difference between domesticated and wild animals.


dr del

ummm, yes they do, and so do many wild rodents. they carry the fleas that carry the plague. But remember the plague was only detrimental because they did not have the technology to fight the sickness. It is no harder to cure now than a common cold.

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Originally Posted by dr del

What do you feed your cats?
dr del

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Cats are one of a group of animals that are known to hunt and kill for fun or enjoyment. This predatory behavior is the very reason man domesticated the cat, as live in exterminators. After centuries of this domestication we have created a prolifically breeding killer, that everyone thinks is addorable. The common house cat kills more animals in a predatory manner in the US than any other animal yearly. It is not hard to believe considering how populated they are, and that this is the very reason they were domesticated. When they leave it on the doorstep they are trying to impress you.

My cats eat whiskas, but they also are allowed to go outside, where they do exercise their predatory behaviors. They have brought home some pretty interesting stuff. I haven't(or wouldn't) consider living anywhere that wouldn't let me have my cats outdoors. (Note both my cats are fixed, otherwise it would be a different story).

Having said that... I don't think my cats are a very fair comparison here, being mammals, and pack animals, that have evolved to cohabitate with humans over centuries. I wouldn't feed Whiskas to a captive bobcat or tiger. But a house cat is a different story, because at this point if we let them hunt as predators for their means of survival they would cause an incredible amount of damage to wildlife(more than they do already).

And respectfully...This "owned" bull crap is freaking stupid... I am not trying to show anyone up...Or compete for anything... I am trying to have an educated discussion with a forum of people, not just to state my thoughts, but learn from others as well. Save your little comments for video games.

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Originally Posted by spokism

See, now what you did to socal here, is what the news dose when they show a story about someone they dont like, where they edit the video to make the person look bad/stupid/wrong. thats not really fair to do that.

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I'm sorry you think those were my tactics...but they weren't. I simply brought forth valid observation from my own experience. At the same time I acknowledged that this could and may have been a singular instance in a particular snake caused by other husbandry issues. I didn't edit anything... and my account is is no way biased. "See now what you did?" Pointing the finger...Come on now...:colbert:

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Originally Posted by anendeloflorien

Well you can't really say that that is what they eat in the wild. We're talking about domesticated rats here which, I know it sounds crazy but bear with me, are not native to AFRICA!

I'll try her again on either PK or stunned but no more live, she'll switch to FT eventually.

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just wondering what the dif is of finishing the rat off after the snake almost kills it orstunning it or p/k it your self seems pretty much the same to me except for if the snake does it right it is being done naturally:snake:

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

My cats eat whiskas, but they also are allowed to go outside, where they do exercise their predatory behaviors. They have brought home some pretty interesting stuff. I haven't(or wouldn't) consider living anywhere that wouldn't let me have my cats outdoors. (Note both my cats are fixed, otherwise it would be a different story).

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I would never in my life allow my cats to be outdoor cats. They do eat birds/lizards... some people kill cats for that. Some people kill cats because they go to the bathroom on their yards. Some people kill cats because they do not like them. If someone runs over a cat, they most likely will not stop for it.

I'm going to send you a link I would like you to read, I do not want to post it here because I do not want to get in trouble with the other forum since I know some members of it are on here.

In zoos they have environment enrichment, if you are worried about your pets getting stimulated then look it up, cats play with toys and strings because they are practicing their hunting behaviors, play with your cats. I spend more time with my cats than any sane person should, they play, they have cat towers so they can stretch their back naturally like the would on a tree outdoors. I keep them inside for safety reasons, since their safety is my main concern, I am responsible for them and I act accordingly.

Anyways this is about snakes. They may not be domesticated like cats and dogs are, but they are being kept as pets none the less. No one is less of a keeper because they choose to feed f/t, no one is a better keeper because they feed them live. I do not even understand the argument here! And I don't think anyone is trying to own anyone, someone was just sharing an experience and they have every right to not want to go through that experience again even if there is a slight chance that would ever happen again.

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

I am not trying to show anyone up...Or compete for anything... I am trying to have an educated discussion with a forum of people, not just to state my thoughts, but learn from others as well. Save your little comments for video games.

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Educating people would be to list the pros and cons of both feeding methods, educating them about the different options, and in the end leave it to each owner to decide which one is best for them. What happen here is that you are making judgment on people who choose to feed F/T just like pro F/T people try to pass judgments on people who feed live, and in both case it is WRONG.

Learn to respect each owner’s choice to feed what works for their animals and is convenient for them while educating them about the different options available to them.

Note 1: I would have step in the same way if someone was opposed to live feeding.

Note 2: I feed live because it works and it is convenient for me ;)

From what was described, it sounds to me like an over fed ball python that wasn't hungry and given too big of a prey item ... The bite and constriction was defensive and not a feeding response ... you're very lucky ... but of course, I wasn't there so I couldn't be certain ... I'm just speculating based on my experience.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

From what was described, it sounds to me like an over fed ball python that wasn't hungry and given too big of a prey item ... The bite and constriction was defensive and not a feeding response ... you're very lucky ... but of course, I wasn't there so I couldn't be certain ... I'm just speculating based on my experience.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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I agree, sounds like a defensive strike to me. I have actually never had one of my ball pythons coil a rat without killing it, but I have seen them strike at, and injure a rat that they are not interested in eating, but do not want the rat near them either.

I suggest waiting until the snake is hungry and try again. Do not leave the rat in the enclosure for longer then 45 min or so, because it will just stress her out anyways.

Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

I'm sorry you think those were my tactics...but they weren't. I simply brought forth valid observation from my own experience. At the same time I acknowledged that this could and may have been a singular instance in a particular snake caused by other husbandry issues. I didn't edit anything... and my account is is no way biased. "See now what you did?" Pointing the finger...Come on now...:colbert:

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no, i was defending you lol. i was saying dr. del was doing that

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

From what was described, it sounds to me like an over fed ball python that wasn't hungry and given too big of a prey item ... The bite and constriction was defensive and not a feeding response ... you're very lucky ... but of course, I wasn't there so I couldn't be certain ... I'm just speculating based on my experience.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Hey Adam thanks for weighing in! I really don't believe she is an overfed snake, as I said I have only had her for about a month now and she has not fed yet. I do appreciate the expert feedback! I'll try some smaller prey items next time I feed though, the rat wasn't very big but it may have just been too much since she hasn't fed in a while IDK.

Look I'm here to learn, I know I'm one of the younger people on here (I'm only 24) and that I do not have as much experience with these animals as the vast majority of you guys (I've only had BPs for about a year). That being said I've spent countless hours researching and learning absolutely everything I can about the creatures I keep, including my rats!

I think the snake may just be stressed by a new environment, new sights sounds etc.... so what would be the best way to get her back on feed? Should I wait a few weeks, just leave her be, and then try live again? She's surely hungry already so I don't want to create an even more stressed snake. This is a new situation for me so I would love to hear the techniques you guys use with snakes like this.

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Originally Posted by dr del

To the O.P,

It sounds more like your snake was not really in feeding mode or was not prepared to ambush it.


How long did you pre-scent for and what was the snakes behaviour just before you introduced the rat?

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See here's where I think part of the issue may lay. I can't really pre-scent in my room because my rats are in the same room! All of my animals are in my bedroom because we do not have anywhere else to put them right now. Is there a way to pre-scent if the "scent" is already present in the area?
Right before I put the rat in the tub she was looking around, sniffing the air and acting just like any of my other snakes before feeding time. I didn't see anything in her behavior to make me think that she was not ready. She zoned in on the rat immediately and went into striking position and when he started moving towards her she struck and partially constricted.

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I feed exclusively F/T but even then I have noticed I get a much better success rate in feedings if the snake is ready and expecting the prey before I offer it.

I would try again in a week but this time try and use a smaller prey item and extend the pre scenting time and , if the snake shows no reaction or hunting behaviour simply keep the rat till the next feeding day.

This also has the advantage you know the prey animal has had a week of good nutrition etc. :)


dr del

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Thanks Dr. Del :D For a 1600g snake do you think that giving her a live rat pup would be acceptable? It would get a meal in her and I wouldn't have to worry as much about her getting bitten.

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Originally Posted by anendeloflorien

This is a new situation for me so I would love to hear the techniques you guys use with snakes like this.

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Patience. ;) Probably not what you wanted to hear, but that's the reality of the situation ... sooner or later, she'll eat.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Patience. ;) Probably not what you wanted to hear, but that's the reality of the situation ... sooner or later, she'll eat.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Absolutely! :gj: I just want to do whats right for my animals.

Do you think that I should try feeding again next week or give her some more time to just relax? Thanks Adam! It's great to hear the voice of experience :D

BTW I'm proud to share that name with you lol :P

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Originally Posted by anendeloflorien

Absolutely! :gj: I just want to do whats right for my animals.

Do you think that I should try feeding again next week or give her some more time to just relax? Thanks Adam! It's great to hear the voice of experience :D

BTW I'm proud to share that name with you lol :P

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I would give her a two week rest before offering food again ... keep an eye on her and make sure she's active at night before even thinking about feeding ... then offer a smaller sized prey item at dusk (for a 1500 ish gram girl with a feeding problem, I would try either a big chub or a very small weaner).

Also, sometimes mice do a really good job of getting a ball python back into a regular feeding routine ... At the end of breeding season, many of my adult males need a mouse or two before they'll even think about taking a rat again.

Don't stress and don't worry about doing right by your snake ... you're here, you're asking questions, and you're listening to all of the great advice that everyone is sharing ... you're doing great!

If you're still worried about it after a month or so, let me know and I'd be happy to help however I can.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Educating people would be to list the pros and cons of both feeding methods, educating them about the different options, and in the end leave it to each owner to decide which one is best for them. What happen here is that you are making judgment on people who choose to feed F/T just like pro F/T people try to pass judgments on people who feed live, and in both case it is WRONG.

Learn to respect each owner’s choice to feed what works for their animals and is convenient for them while educating them about the different options available to them.

Note 1: I would have step in the same way if someone was opposed to live feeding.

Note 2: I feed live because it works and it is convenient for me ;)

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Hi Deborah...

I did not say that I am trying to educate anyone... I said was I was trying to have an educated discussion, in which I may have the opportunity to learn something as well. I am not trying to disrespect anyones methods, and they will feed how they like regardless of what I say. I am not trying to pass judgement on anyone, I have not pointed any fingers, and I will not say that a person should follow what I say or they are a monster. Me saying that I do not agree with Feeding FT, and stating my reasoning, is in no way passing judgment on people who do. Discussions like this are the fuel that advances the hobby, and all I am doing is sharing my side of the coin. People will make their own decisions with their animals, and I don't have to agree with it... I won't treat them any better or worse based on their decision... But I will always reserve the right to step up and say "I don't agree with that method and this is why."


Spokism...

Sorry about the confusion.. I misread your comment... Thanks.

Hi,

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Originally Posted by spokism

ummm, yes they do, and so do many wild rodents. they carry the fleas that carry the plague. But remember the plague was only detrimental because they did not have the technology to fight the sickness. It is no harder to cure now than a common cold.

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I cannot find anything that states it is endemic in new york.

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/b/bubo...gue/causes.htm

Simply having fleas is not an indicator really. Can you give me any research or links that mention it being present?

I can't decide whether the last line is a joke or not bearing in mind there is no cure whatsoever for the common cold?


dr del

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

Cats are one of a group of animals that are known to hunt and kill for fun or enjoyment. This predatory behavior is the very reason man domesticated the cat, as live in exterminators. After centuries of this domestication we have created a prolifically breeding killer, that everyone thinks is addorable. The common house cat kills more animals in a predatory manner in the US than any other animal yearly. It is not hard to believe considering how populated they are, and that this is the very reason they were domesticated. When they leave it on the doorstep they are trying to impress you.

My cats eat whiskas, but they also are allowed to go outside, where they do exercise their predatory behaviors. They have brought home some pretty interesting stuff. I haven't(or wouldn't) consider living anywhere that wouldn't let me have my cats outdoors. (Note both my cats are fixed, otherwise it would be a different story).

Having said that... I don't think my cats are a very fair comparison here, being mammals, and pack animals, that have evolved to cohabitate with humans over centuries. I wouldn't feed Whiskas to a captive bobcat or tiger. But a house cat is a different story, because at this point if we let them hunt as predators for their means of survival they would cause an incredible amount of damage to wildlife(more than they do already).

And respectfully...This "owned" bull crap is freaking stupid... I am not trying to show anyone up...Or compete for anything... I am trying to have an educated discussion with a forum of people, not just to state my thoughts, but learn from others as well. Save your little comments for video games.

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Un-owned. That was very well said, I apologize for my previous comment.

Interesting conversation, feral cats in my neighborhood get eaten by hungry coyotes every winter. The coyotes and foxes teach their young to hunt on the feral cat population here in the early summer.

I personally feed my bp's live and the rest are on FT. I have had larger messes from FT prey then any live so far.

As far as the baking soda mixture I know the main gas being let off is CO2 but is it that it? I don't know enough about it to know if there is any extra stuff being let off that could be worse then a simple tank of CO2 from a welding shop.

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

Snakes are Predators...Not scavengers... When you choose to keep a predator as a pet, you have to suck it up and accept that this kind of thing will happen now and then. I am not going to get deep into the FT vs Live debate again... But I know that hunting and killing live prey is one of the main Instinctual behaviors that snakes have... but once again here we go changing the way they live, actually the way they hunt and eat, for our own convenience....I don't agree with it. ...they should be allowed to hunt and kill live prey.

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Better not own a dog then, unless you plan on letting it hunt in a pack and take down deer or hunt rabbits. I hope you don't own fish unless you are feeding only live brine, bloodworms, mysis shrimp etc. I hope also that you don't own any birds as a lot of those you should be feeding live bugs to. :)

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Originally Posted by spokism

And yes, i have no compassion for rats. they are dirty little creatures. also i live in nyc, and here rats are huge, dirty mean and they also carry the bubonic plauge. i just dont like them. and dont take that and twist it to say that i dont care about animals. its just rats.

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I would also like to point out that them carrying the plague had nothing to do with us dumping our own poo and garbage out the window and us living in our own filth.

On a serious note, have you ever tried to keep a rat as a pet? Try it for a few months. It may change your opinion. Whats the worst that can happen? You get sick of it and feed it.

I don't mind people who feed frozen. I don't mind people who feed live. Do what you think is best for your animals. What I do not condone is people who like to watch ANY animal die just for fun. Watching your animal go about its natural behaviors and hunt can be fun, but taking pleasure in an animals suffering and death just for the sake of the suffering and death.....well...

thats not a far cry from the people who go out shooting snakes with a 22 is it?