Minimum Number Of Posts Before Letting Someone Post In For Sale Section

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Righto! :gj:

Look at me 5,555+ posts in 1 1/2 years. Not many people can do that LOL.

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Hey I can! When I was an admin on this forum called TTFF, I had over 10 thousand posts, and they reset all of the numbers.
But I HAVE to make my posts meaningful.. I hate when people are just like 'cool', 'nice pickup'.
Which I catch myself doing sometimes, but I do my best to add details of importance to my posts.

Also, it's sometimes hard to check up on who they are buying from if they are a new seller. For example, who am I to reference when I start selling? People I bought from? Honestly, I'm not too sure, because we all have to start somewhere, and I hope that I can sell to good people as well as purchase from good people.

There are scammers that buy too everyone. Those, I find to be the ugliest at times.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Righto! :gj:

Look at me 5,555+ posts in 1 1/2 years. Not many people can do that LOL.

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Hey I can! When I was an admin on this forum called TTFF, I had over 10 thousand posts, and they reset all of the numbers.
But I HAVE to make my posts meaningful.. I hate when people are just like 'cool', 'nice pickup'.
Which I catch myself doing sometimes, but I do my best to add details of importance to my posts.

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On the other side of the fence are people like me. I've been lurking around the site for roughly 2 years, a member for around a year, and posting for only a month or two. I tend to not be super talkative and won't usually make a post unless I have something useful to add to a conversation. On top of that, even if I DO have something useful to add -- if it's something that's fairly common knowledge, something that I know is likely to be mentioned by someone else, I usually won't bother to make the post.

Contributing. Not contributing by XX posts in XX time. That means that you would have to change the rules to define exactly how much contributing someone has to do in order to qualify.
Technically, by posting an AD a person has contributed to the site, as ads do draw attention, and ads can get someone on the site a new snake they want, and ads can give someone on the site funds from a sale.
Sorry. You want it enforced in a NEW way, therefor requiring a rewrite of the definition, therefor a change in the rules.
But, hey, nice try.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Also, it's sometimes hard to check up on who they are buying from if they are a new seller. For example, who am I to reference when I start selling? People I bought from? Honestly, I'm not too sure, because we all have to start somewhere, and I hope that I can sell to good people as well as purchase from good people.

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Jess, by your participation here, people are getting to know you - and you are more likely to get a sale from other members here. That's how you start building your reputation.

When someone joins here and makes their first post in the for sale section and you've never heard of them, and you click their post and see it's their only post, are you saying that your that naive (how you described yourself) that you would consider their ad without doing more legwork on them?

Is an animal that might interest you more important that protecting yourself by doing the extra work in vetting them?

My first major purchase after I had my first ball python was when I was still relatively new as well. I didn't know the seller, his site was very pretty and impressive. I loved his animals. I still checked BOI on him, and he had great references. I also asked Adam of 8ball if he knew of him and Kara of NERD if she knew of him. Kara told me that while she had not personally purchased from him, she knew people who had, and had nothing negative to say of the transaction.

The pretty snakes that I really hoped I could get were not enough to make me make the purchase. It wasn't until I independently verified their legitimacy before I ever contacted him (and have since made multiple purchases from and shared my experiences on Fauna).

That's my point. You recognize that you are naive - but you HAVE to protect yourself.

Robin's point and others in that vein are important to note. Even if we change a rule here or there, seperate forums, make minimums for posting in for sales ads - you still cannot and should not as a newcomer think that means this person is okay and you should send them your money.

Like it's been said, you have to be a proactive purchaser. You need to do that whether it's an ad here, an ad elsewhere, a snake at a show, or down the street at PetCo. If we as staff can do something to help you, that's cool and as staff we are discussing this but it will never replace your own responsibility to check, doublecheck and then check again because in the end - it is your money or your snake involved in the deal.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

I hate when people are just like 'cool', 'nice pickup'.

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I actually like when I submit a picture to the forum and people reply with "nice animal," or "congrats." It really sucks when you put a picture of you animal on and no one replies. If everyone had the mentality of not replying unless they had more to say, then no one would ever reply to someone’s pictures.

My :2cent:.......I am not sure the # of posts is relevant...........some have the gift of gab and some don't...............:D

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Technically, by posting an AD a person has contributed to the site, as ads do draw attention, and ads can get someone on the site a new snake they want, and ads can give someone on the site funds from a sale.

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You are reaching pretty far with this one.

When someone's first post is selling several morphs at normal market price, they are not in any way shape or form contributing to this site. They are only taking advantage of a feature that is not meant for them to use yet. By reading the rules of the for sale section it is clear that it is for contributing members use only. NOT a way for someone to run a free business.

Perhaps Wolfy you should ask the ADMIN why they felt it necessary to make such a rule in the first place? Maybe if you think the rule is so wrong you should direct your concerns to them?

This thread is about a discussion which every member has a right to participate in, to have an opinion about and to express their thoughts publically on. Nobody needs to come to Admin about any of this unless they themselves feel the need to.

Admin as well as Mods are reading, participating and monitoring this thread - just like we do with any thread in any forum on this site.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Here's a thought, and I'm really not trying to be silly, but whatever your personal thresh-hold is for minimal post counts is, why not just choose NOT to respond to ads that don't have your personal minimal count?

If someone pops on here and only posts ads, and I don't know who they are - I'm not likely to do business with them.

Just a thought.

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This was my thought exactly when I read the opening post. There are acceptions to every trend and I don't feel it is fair to punish the newcomers or less-talkative members that may be honest sellers. The resonsibility ultimately lies with you, changing the rules on one forum won't nessicarily fix the problem. That's just my :twocents:.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

This thread is about a discussion which every member has a right to participate in, to have an opinion about and to express their thoughts publically on. Nobody needs to come to Admin about any of this unless they themselves feel the need to.

Admin as well as Mods are reading, participating and monitoring this thread - just like we do with any thread in any forum on this site.

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LOL SORRY JO!!!! I was attempting to make a point! I was not actually suggesting that anyone contact the Admin...

Well, I think after all of my replies to this thread my opinon has been clearly stated. I will now respectively bow out...

Ball-pythons.net is the best forum in the world. Lets keep it that way.

I can understand the sentiment behind the minimum posts idea but I am not in favor of it. The end result would be to deny access to the large number of honest people that don't regularly post here but have nice herps to offer to the members here and would just make the comparatively small number of scammers just have to put out a little more effort to be able to sell here. If you look at the effort that was put out to weave stories by HEH and LAW they will do it.

I have to agree with Robin and people who are thinking along the same line. Nothing any admin or any rule can do will substitute for tapping into the wealth of information on this great site, or in its people. I've only sent out a handful of pm's, but everytime i have the people have returned it with a friendly answer to whatever question i had, or told me where to find it. A person who is new to snakes, or any hobby, should expect to do some homework before shelling out money.

it's already been said that having a minimum post requirement will encourage more "nice pickup" posts (although i have to agree with eddie, it's a lonely feeling when you post and nobody replies or comments - sucks) or other quick posts without much content. So this new way of enforcing an already existing rule - i think that's how Mike's referring to it now :) - will make the informational forums bloated with one-word posts, and decrease the number of people that can put their animals in the ads section. The number of "informational" posts will be diluted with a lot more "fun" posts, which is great an all, but I don't know that it makes this community better.

I don't see how having forums less concentrated with informational, insightful posts would be an improvment. Prohibiting smaller, newer breeders from posting ads until they "level-up" thier post count on bp.net like it's a online game or something (yeah, i play WoW) makes it seem....i dunno, wierd. I'm not sure about this.

I do think separate forums for ads and for adoptions is a good idea.

I think post-count shouldn't "count" as anything but a indicator of the person's contributions to the site. It shouldn't bar you from doing this or that.

I'm just trying to stick up for the readers of this forum! Let's hear it for the quiet people!! :salute:

I have to say I would be against a set # of posts, but to set a membership time limit would be ok.. The reason I say this is I've been a member here for a while now but haven't posted that much. I've met some of the coolest people (in person) from this site.. I'm just not that talkative.. Like now I've read this post like 5 times and still havent gotten what I want to say out.. LOL I'd rather talk to a person face to face.. But coming here and learning has helped me tremendously in my keeping.. So next season when I have animals for sale I'd like to post them here. But if there is a 1000 post limit that would never be possible. Unless of course I ramp up my Nice pic, Killer animal, Great pickup posts.. But whatever is decided I will not gripe about thats just not my style..

Alan

i think it should be done but if your going to do it make the post amount around 250 not as high but not low, if iwanted too i could get 100 in a day without spaming. but if there is going to be a post restriction there should another forum for wanted ads where the person wanting something has to pay first but the seller has to have a certain amount of posts like 250 to be able to look at the topics minus the maker. and if thats not possible than a risk taker forum where post ount doesnt matter but all scams are there own fault but should be reported. i do have expertise in this kind of matter by being a moderator in some forums i used to be a part of while i sold video game money for real life money and have had been scammed before and all, i will make a post later on ways not to get scammed and if we need a sole moderator for that forum ill be glad to volunteer. if wanted a record of sale from old forums i do have a list of a small amount of trades but i did have well over 1500+ trades in my video gme money carrer and thats selling and buying together since i was a merchant but since stopped due to game going downhill. i also could give some good suggestions to make the sale area a whole lot safer.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Jess, by your participation here, people are getting to know you - and you are more likely to get a sale from other members here. That's how you start building your reputation.

When someone joins here and makes their first post in the for sale section and you've never heard of them, and you click their post and see it's their only post, are you saying that your that naive (how you described yourself) that you would consider their ad without doing more legwork on them?

Is an animal that might interest you more important that protecting yourself by doing the extra work in vetting them?

My first major purchase after I had my first ball python was when I was still relatively new as well. I didn't know the seller, his site was very pretty and impressive. I loved his animals. I still checked BOI on him, and he had great references. I also asked Adam of 8ball if he knew of him and Kara of NERD if she knew of him. Kara told me that while she had not personally purchased from him, she knew people who had, and had nothing negative to say of the transaction.

The pretty snakes that I really hoped I could get were not enough to make me make the purchase. It wasn't until I independently verified their legitimacy before I ever contacted him (and have since made multiple purchases from and shared my experiences on Fauna).

That's my point. You recognize that you are naive - but you HAVE to protect yourself.

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Thanks to this forum, I'm not as naive as I used to be. In the beginning, I did contact someone I was unsure of, though I found Tim Bailey, and everything changed. The reason I did so was because I was unaware of the true risks in the reptile business.

I had never purchased an animal online, and had done my research about the animals needs, but I never thought it would be important for purchasing.

I have always understood scammers abilities, but not so much in this type of trade. I guess at the time, I thought anyone who was breeding and selling reptiles must be a large corporation and industry. I was unaware of how largely spread this trade has become.

Does that make sense? I'm a bit weird with words right now.. I've been very jumbly lately.

My choice with Bailey was because of how organized his website, and the way he talked to me through e-mail and gladly answered my questions. Talking on the phone was also a large step for trust. :gj:
Back then though, I was very lucky. I could've been naive enough to purchase from anyone.

I don't know if theres any real way to educate and let people know that there ARE ways to check up on sellers out there. But I hope that maybe a slight minimum post count or time limit could sway away the people who don't have enough time to spam their posts away. If anyone has better ideas, I'm all for that. I just hate sitting here doing nothing about potential problems for others. The post count doesn't have to be high (so the non-talkative ones have a chance too!) but even 25 posts is a good start.

And I agree Mike, this is the best forum on the internet. :D

This is all I have to contribute to this thread:

Use common sense before you buy an animal. Contact the person, see if you can find out previous people whom he's bought/sold to, see if you can contact them. If you decide to buy from them without knowing any previous history then you're putting yourself at risk to get jipped in some way or form.

I'm sorry if I sound like a butthole, but wake up and smell the coffee, this is money we're talking about here, and where there is money there is scum. I've been selling/buying/trading items on the internet for the past 5 years and I've had dozens of positive transactions, a couple of 'eh' ones and a couple of ones where I got screwed it's just a risk you take. I've yet to buy an animal off the internet, but I've also been lucky enough to have the opportunity to buy my animals in person.

I have to say i agree with some sort of system, i have yet to purchase from someone that has posted in the forsale threads here. I can say that i would be more at ease if i knew it was someone that has been around here and people knew of and had talked to before. I think 500 posts are a little much though. MAYBE 100... thats a big maybe. or maybe a time period of being a CONTRIBUTING member, not just a lurker.

I lurked this site for a LONG time before actually talking to people and making myself known. I know i sound like a bit of a hypocrite saying people shouldn't lurk but i never lurked and tried to sell something. I just tried to learn as much as i can before i posted and tried to contribute, If people have enough snakes that they need to sale they should have some kind of expertise or basic knowledge that they could share with members here that need the help instead of trying to make money for their first post

Jo, as you stated earlier, this is a community and it doesn't seem right that people can come and just post right out of the gate, some kind of contribution should be necessary before trying to make money off other member of this great community.


I also agree with the adoption section, for people who just need to rehome and not want to make a quick buck by joining and posting right away.

This topic has been brought up several times in the past and is not something that has been ignored.

In case many were not aware the clasified section did have new rule changes in early 2007. That change actually helped stop and curb alot of abuse of the for sales section.

As mentioned earlier if you dont like an add or new person placing one dont buy it or respond to it.

If you think someone is pulling a scam, report it to one of the staff.

If someone has only 1-5 posts and they are already in the classified section, HELLO RED FLAG! Why get upset, just use common sense. If a price is too good to be true it probably is. Many people that have been scammed went for the too good to be true price from the guy no one ever heard of

No matter how many minimum posts, someone could by pass that in a matter of days or weeks if they wanted to, so in the long run it wont stop dishonest people, just delay them.

Whenever you are interested in any add wether it be here, KS, Craiglist, Fauna, please do your homework, get references, check the BOI, use our feedback forum. The tools are there but if you are too lazy or just want the best price it doesnt matter how many posts someone has you are bound to run into a problem.

Every members amount of posts are right under their name, make your own minimum and there you go.

This forum is not known for its for sale section like other forums because thats not what its about. We are not ignoring peoples concerns, actually we went through this several times in the past and have made changes accordingly.

I dont mean to be rude or condescending so please dont take it that way, just stating this is not a new concern or situation, thats all:)

The whole point of the "sale section" is for our members to find and/or post snakes they have for sale. Just getting 100 posts is hard, what if I've been a breeder for decades and I just joined the site and now have to get 500 posts? That just doesn't make any sense to me. We will be getting a lot of posts with no purpose.

I do think 100 posts is reasonable....

But I also agree with the others. We all know how many posts we each have.

I agree with making a separate adoption forum from the for sale forum. Mostly for the reason that it will help those trying to re-home a snake to not get lost in the other ads.

I don't agree with any of the ideas that have been posted so far about limiting the ability to post in the for sale section. While I agree it is sort of an abuse of the forum to post a for sale ad when you've never posted anything else, unfortunately none of the ideas suggested would stop a scammer. The best one is probably the idea of requiring someone to have been a member for a certain amount of time before posting a for sale ad. However, that only slows down the scammer; it doesn't stop them. And it unfortunately also slows down many legitimate people who might want to post a for sale ad. I think we lose more than we gain.

Robin and a few others made very good points about the buyer needing to be sure they know and trust who they are buying from. It is not the job of bp.net to protect foolish people from getting scammed. And the better and/or more determined scam artists who will catch a few of those who aren't so foolish will manage to slip through any rules that could be written, so we can't stop them before they scam anyone. Once they scam a few people and become known, they will be dealt with as we have already seen.

One idea that might make it slightly easier for buyers to do their homework is to add a new sort of rep points to bp.net. Let's say we call them vendor points. The idea would be you only give a person a positive vendor point if you have made a purchase from them and are happy with the results, similar to the way it is done on ebay. By using a similar system to the one we have for regular rep points, abuse of this system would be difficult because a scammer couldn't just register multiple times and give themselves rep. It doesn't count until the person has been around a while and earned some rep themselves.

I have no idea how hard this would be for the administration to set up, and it might be more hassle than it is worth. The bottom line would still be that the buyer needs to do their research, just like it is for each and every purchase a person makes, online or otherwise, reptile related or not.

I almost forgot one other thing I wanted to say. To enforce the rules that currently exist, I do not believe we need to prevent newcomers to the site from posting for sale ads. Who cares if someone's first post is a for sale ad if they then go on to become a "contributing member"? I probably wouldn't trust them to make a purchase, but I don't mind them posting the ad. However, if it becomes habitual that someone posts only for sale ads, or more of those than other posts, that might be a reason for some sort of probation or eventually being banned.

I think an adoption section would be abused. I would even say every post would need to be approved before it showed. I can just see it now.... >.<

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I think an adoption section would be abused. I would even say every post would need to be approved before it showed. I can just see it now.... >.<

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There would be little reason to abuse it if posts in the for sale section are unrestricted. However, if one of the requirements before posting for sale ads gets implemented, I agree this could become a big problem.

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Originally Posted by kc261

There would be little reason to abuse it if posts in the for sale section are unrestricted. However, if one of the requirements before posting for sale ads gets implemented, I agree this could become a big problem.

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I dunno... I personally think it's fine the way it is.

I'm of the mind that if you got burned, it was a learning experience. (yes, I have been burned)

I haven't read all the posts but its a topic thats been discussed a lot and my two cents are pretty simple.

Have something stickied to the For Sale Forum that discusses the "safe" way of purchasing an animal online.

Asking for pictures, keeping records and emails, and above all doing an inquire on the BOI. If there was something to this effect available I think more people may be prone to doing a BOI search which in 99% of the time will save you a headache.

Or they may not even see the sticky but at least I'll sleep better at night :)

I have not read this whole thread either, but am of the mind that it is fine the way it is.

As a member of this site, I feel I should have access to all the animals for sale within the community and anyone that participates on this site, regardless of their level of activity.

Seems like this was proposed as a means of weeding out THEM from US. Not cool IMHO.

If people only want to buy from other BP.Net friends and those they know, then great. But to implement this restriction seems oligarchal.

There are lots of tools for the savvy reptile consumer online, and the BP community is a small and incestuous one as it is.

I like this site because there is a high level of activity from beginner, hobby, and professional breeders, so why are we trying to drive people away?

I do not recall anything stating what level of participation is expected upon applying for membership.

Just my 0.02 bucks.

Bruce

I also think that the for sale section is fine just the way it is. I really hate to see people talking about making it harder for scammers, bad guys, and other nefarious evil doers when it hasn't even been shown to be a big problem around here. Whatever happened to the concept of innocent until proven guilty?

I'm a member of many other forums. Some of them where I've been a regular reader for years but still don't have more then a dozen posts to my name. I just don't feel the need to add to a thread where there are already plenty of competent responses that I agree with. I'd really hate to see some kind of post number restriction added and then see a flurry of 'yup me too' and 'LOL' type posts clogging up the forums just so people can get their post counts up.

Mark

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I also think that the for sale section is fine just the way it is. I really hate to see people talking about making it harder for scammers, bad guys, and other nefarious evil doers when it hasn't even been shown to be a big problem around here. Whatever happened to the concept of innocent until proven guilty?

I'm a member of many other forums. Some of them where I've been a regular reader for years but still don't have more then a dozen posts to my name. I just don't feel the need to add to a thread where there are already plenty of competent responses that I agree with. I'd really hate to see some kind of post number restriction added and then see a flurry of 'yup me too' and 'LOL' type posts clogging up the forums just so people can get their post counts up.

Mark

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Bravo! Well said Mark! The ever dreaded post-whore! :salute:


...uh oh! Does this count as one of those "me too" replies? :P

LOL

:rofl:




Hehehehehee

I agree that 500 is fair. I havent been on here long and it says I am already around 100 posts. With that many posts you can really get a good idea of the person and their knowledge. Although I do like the separating the for sale and adoptions though.

Howabout personnal responsibility? If your afraid of being scammed, make the effort to remove the possibility yourself. relying on rules means more work for the forums wasted keeping the honest from placing ads, and there's always ways for scammers to slip through the cracks and scam you if you keep your gaurd down relying on "rules" to keep you safe.

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Originally Posted by Jerhart

Bravo! Well said Mark! The ever dreaded post-whore! :salute:


...uh oh! Does this count as one of those "me too" replies? :P

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

LOL

:rofl:




Hehehehehee

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You guys are incorrigible....:O

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

I also think it's fine the way it is, where are the all the problems that would cause the need for such a change to a system that is already working good?

Research your seller, do the leg work, ask them questions etc. Get opinions from those you respect before you buy if need be....

Making Restrictions???? for what, make it harder for good people to post in the for sale section.... that's pretty unfair. Shouldn't good people be encouraged to the site, not restricted?

Sure, you're going to get a few bad apples along the way, throw em away.... you'll still be left with a bucket full of good ones! :)

no offense to those opposed, but i think it's a bit idealistic to think that you can just do the leg work and avoid getting scammed. people that scam are good at what they do. manipulation is a powerful tool for these people and they have mastered it from what i see and hear... how else could someone get convinced to send out stock without receiving money first??
i think it'd be a simple rule that would be worth it if even one person was saved from getting ripped off.

this would also be positive in a second way because it would encourage more people to post and get involved in this community.

I think it's a bad idea. Scamers will always be one step ahead of the honest folks. If I had reservations about a seller (which we all should) I would ask everyone on this site if they knew them or had any experience with them. If no one commented I would just move on. Posting frequently on BP.net does not automatically make someone an honest person!!!

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Originally Posted by Colin Vestrand

no offense to those opposed, but i think it's a bit idealistic to think that you can just do the leg work and avoid getting scammed. people that scam are good at what they do. manipulation is a powerful tool for these people and they have mastered it from what i see and hear... how else could someone get convinced to send out stock without receiving money first??
i think it'd be a simple rule that would be worth it if even one person was saved from getting ripped off.

this would also be positive in a second way because it would encourage more people to post and get involved in this community.

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I agree with it being idealistic to think one can always avoid being scammed by being careful. Unfortunately, I also think the same is true for believing that something along the lines of a 500 post requirement would always avoid people being scammed. As you point out, people that scam are good at what they do.

I disagree that it would be "worth it". It might or might not save anyone from getting scammed. But it also might turn legitimate, honest people away from bp.net, so we lose them and the chance to purchase their animals.

i should also have pointed out that i agree with most that 500 is way too high... it's hard enough to put a number on it, but i can tell you that it took me a long time to reach 500 posts! i've been here 3 years and only have 900+.

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Originally Posted by kc261

I disagree that it would be "worth it". It might or might not save anyone from getting scammed. But it also might turn legitimate, honest people away from bp.net, so we lose them and the chance to purchase their animals.

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I think it would be off putting, they'll go to other forums that don't have hurdles.... which is a loss for this site. I don't see a big problem with scamming here so why change it?

My opinion: Let whoever wants post as much as they want with no prerequirements. Ive been a member of a few other forums for over three years and dont have more than 300 posts total in that time span. Yet some kids who bought a ball or gecko from the local petco have that many posts in a month. Quality (posts) and quantity are two different things. If the mods are aware someone is scamming then of course they should pull the ads and ban the seller. If someone isnt well know its still possible they produced a quality animal and should be able to post/ sell it without any special rules. Buyers can ask sellers questions, check the BOI, etc etc, let them decide how they want to spend their money with the most available(legitimate) options).

i visit this site almost daily and dont post very much. this site has been very helpful in finding out information that i need by looking at old posts. as a newbie to the snake world i have been doing more reading of old post on topics that have come up over and over.

i dont see nothing wrong with a 1-2 month probation period before you can post in the classifieds. you need to think about the new people who only have 1 or 2 posts purchasing form the people with only one post in the classifieds. the new people may not know to do research on the seller.

my proposal
if someone can add a sticky to the top of the classifieds to tell users some general steps and where to go to find history or information on the seller it will at least make a new person aware of what to do before deciding to make a purchase of a snake over the internet. it could be locked or open for others to post on what they do to decide to make a purchase over the internet.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

You guys are incorrigible....:O

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

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:P hehe...everytime I was told this, a detention would follow... :D