Am I a bad person!

Very interesting thread! I picked up a few things along the way at least.

to the OP..I don't think he is a bad person...certainly could have done worse. Would I have done it that way...heck no! Would I have killed a live in any way...heck no, but that is just me. I'm glad my bp takes F/T so I don't have to see the prey die!

Look at the brighter side...OP will walk away with more knowledge and hopefully take a better approach next time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Loft Lizard

I do not think anyone is giving the OP a hard time... they are giving them information. That is a good thing...



I agree with SI on this. Feeding smaller prey. I feed my corn FT but she can take several live crawler rat pups over a larger FT. But out of respect for the pups I do not feed them.

Do they pose a threat to her (?)... not at all.

As far as snakes in captivity lacking a killer instinct. I do not really buy that. Snakes are not domesticated like cats and dogs, etc. I really doubt that this early on we have bred out a killer instinct. And being that snakes are still being pulled from the wild, I doubt the bloodlines are that *clean* yet.

bruce

---

I should make a video of my corn snake feeding. It's rather amusing.. I don't know if its just because shes been fed f/t or pk all her life but she has never put a tough grip on the mouse.

She grabs it, wraps around it slightly and when I let go of it with the tongs she takes her mouth off of it and it plops over..

She never was fed live, so feeding her live now could be bad. :]


If you know what your doing I don't think whacking is that bad. I personally can't preform a CD.. Its makes sense and when other people do it, it looks easy.. but I don't know why I can't do it.
I've never had a mouse show any living reaction after a whack. It'll twitch and I'll check for a heartbeat and feel none.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

I should make a video of my corn snake feeding. It's rather amusing.. I don't know if its just because shes been fed f/t or pk all her life but she has never put a tough grip on the mouse.

---

My corn doesn't even constrict FT. I call it "aggressive flopping" as he tries to sit on the rat to death. :rofl:

But when he's fed live, I make sure he constricts. Easiest way to do that is suspend him in air while he throws more coils around the rat. I prefer to feed him FT because he usually doesn't wait for the rat to pass, and I can't handle that.

To the OP, I don't think you're a bad person at all. You chose to do what you thought was in the best interest for your snake, although your method may have been uneducated and not the best way to go about it. I know a lot of people feel that a CO2 chamber is the only way it can be done, and those people are entitled to their opinions. I personally prefer to feed live, but have had to PK before. If you are not planning to PK on a regular basis, I think building your own CO2 chamber to euthanize a single mouse or rat every now and then may be overkill. I think if you don't have a CO2 chamber, "whacking" the prey is the next best thing. (I personally would be concerned I'd perform the CD improperly, causing pain to the prey...) What I've chosen to do, which seems to work well, is to use two plastic bags (I use two so if the first one breaks, the rat doesn't spill out on the floor, but also no more than two so it doesn't give any significant padding or protection) from Walmart or the grocery store. I drop the prey in and "whack" as hard as I can on a hard surface. The key is to whack it hard enough the first time that a second whack is never required. When done properly, the prey goes from live and unharmed to dead in a split second. Again, this is just my opinion and mine alone, but I thought I would add another perspective to the thread...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

My corn doesn't even constrict FT. I call it "aggressive flopping" as he tries to sit on the rat to death. :rofl:

But when he's fed live, I make sure he constricts. Easiest way to do that is suspend him in air while he throws more coils around the rat. I prefer to feed him FT because he usually doesn't wait for the rat to pass, and I can't handle that.

---

Once when I fed her live pinkies she swallowed them without constricting! It was the saddest mistake that could ever happen to me. D:
You could see it squirming in the snake a bit.. which obviously makes me worry for the snakes safety too.. so I never did that again. AGH, dumb snake.

To determine if you are a bad person for what you did, you have to ask yourself what your intent was. If you prekilled for YOUR own enjoyment, yes you have problems. If you did it for the snake's sake, no you're not.

As far as the F/T vs live debate, heres my story. I have 2 snakes. A corn that has been fed nothing but live for ten years with no problems. Then I have a 10 month old boa who we think suffered a scratch on his throat from a F/T prey item. I've already spent more time and vet bills on the new boa eating F/T then I have in the 10 years I've owned the corn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argentra

All I will say to this is: hatchling corn snakes take newborn pinky mice...there is no threat or danger to them with pinks, and they are rather easy to subdue.

If anything, it's being said that adult mice and especially rats are better offered as FT or PK, even better when the snake is a lazy one and either isn't sure how to kill the rodent or doesn't want to. :)

---

What I was saying was if a baby corn is started out on live it should not have any trouble taking live its whole life. If they are started out on F/T then later when its older you offer it a live rodent. Yeah the snake could get hurt. Not knowing what to do with a live mouse. My point was if they are started on live they should have no trouble taking live. I wasn't saying that a hatchling corn can take live so why cant an adult corn.

Quote:

---

:rofl: I need you to PLEASE tell me how the F/T killed the snake. Was it too big or something?! I don't know HOW someone could mess that up.. I mean.. come on..

---

While you might find it funny sadly it is a true story, the owner did not thaw the prey throughly and the snake died...............guess you just learned something today ;)

Again both feeding methods can be done safely IF done RESPONSIBLY.

There is no live vs F/T debate, there are different methods available and it all comes down to chose which one works for YOU without pushing one or the other on people.

Educate yourself on live feeding than educate people on both feeding methods, than it's up to them to make choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Once when I fed her live pinkies she swallowed them without constricting! It was the saddest mistake that could ever happen to me. D:
You could see it squirming in the snake a bit.. which obviously makes me worry for the snakes safety too.. so I never did that again. AGH, dumb snake.

---

Many colubrids will swallow their pinkies and fuzzies live (mine used to do it all the time), however as far as the snake safety goes there is nothing to worry about with preys that size.

Once the prey gets bigger they will constrict the prey very efficiently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

While you might find it funny sadly it is a true story, the owner did not thaw the prey throughly and the snake died...............guess you just learned something today ;)

Again both feeding methods can be done safely IF done RESPONSIBLY.

There is no live vs F/T debate, there are different methods available and it all comes down to chose which one works for YOU without pushing one or the other on people.

Educate yourself on live feeding than educate people on both feeding methods, than it's up to them to make choice.

---

Theres also another story I forgot about.
Heated it up in a microwave, it didn't explode, and felt fine, but the internal temp. was over 200F and killed the snake.
Painful stomach burns! :[

I feel it's almost more inhumane being swallowed alive and crushed than being pk by most methods. D: Just my personal opinion there.. ahha.

Wow, I've definitely learned a lot from reading through this thread. My BP will take either Live or F/T and she's big enough now to where a mid-sized mouse is perfect for her. I just got a breeding group of rats and I'm really torn on what method to use when they actually begin breeding. I know I only have one BP right now and it might not seem to make sense to some people for me to have rats to breed for feeders but they are my pets also. I'm thinking though that with some rats having 10-15 babies in a litter I'll wind up having to euthanize and freeze some of them for a later feeding even if I do have 2-3 BPs by then. I could not see myself "whacking" one of my rats. That's just not right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gloryhound

We built a CO2 chamber as a couple of our snakes take F/T and we breed our own rats. Our CO2 chamber is the home grown variety that uses baking soda and vinegar. It is two plastic tubs stacked on top of each other with the mixing chamber on the bottom and the rodent tank on top. Holes drilled in the lid and bottom of holding chamber that are glued together and presure relief hole on one side of the mixing tub. It works, but you can see everything that happens and if you watch it doesn't look very humane either. Adult rats will go crazy for about 30 seconds before finally passing out. If you mastered the old method one whack and it was done.

---

Hey Glory, could you possibly PM me or post how you made and use this CO2 chamber? I've seen some other versions but they all seem to require dry ice and no place up here seems to carry that unless you want to buy it in bulk from a chemical supply co.

As for the OP I would never try to kill a mouse the way that you did but you didn't know any better at the time, now you do. So hopefully you will never feel the need to put an animal through suffering like that again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BChambers

I'm amazed no one has mentioned what, to me and lots of other herp keepers, is the quickest and most humane method of pre-killing-cervical dislocation. When you do it properly, death is intantaneous, by far the fastest I have seen of any method. CO2 doesn't even come close.

It's easy to accomplish. Holding the mouse gently by the tail, lower it onto a surface on which it's feet can readily gain purchase-a screen tank cover works perfectly. The rodent will naturally attempt to pull itself away from your grasp, stretching itself out slightly. At this point, gently bur firmly place a pen, sexing probe, or other long cylindrical object just behind its skull, while at the same time giving a short, sharp tug to the tail. This will easily detach the cervical vertebrae (and thus the spinal cord) from the base of the skull, causing instant death.

It's never pleasant to have to take a life, but such occasions do come up. As responsible keepers we must strive to do our utmost to prevent suffering of ALL our chargers-whether they are pets or feeders.

---

this just seems like an inexperienced person would (or could very easily) do it all wrong. i'd be afraid to do it wrong and make the rodent suffer further... i would be pretty nervous to do it this way, but then again i feed live so.... i don't really have this problem...

the only time i fed my snake a dead mouse was when he killed it and kept tryna eat it booty side first. he got frustrated and kinda turned a cold shoulder to it after he attempted to eat it tail end first like 3 times (literally turning his face away from the mouse in frustration... hehe) so i picked the mouse up by the tail and slowly pulled it away from him. he swirled around and chomped it's head and ate it promptly after. that is my only experience in feeding my snake a dead animal ;) i had him do the killing :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

I should make a video of my corn snake feeding. It's rather amusing.. I don't know if its just because shes been fed f/t or pk all her life but she has never put a tough grip on the mouse.

She grabs it, wraps around it slightly and when I let go of it with the tongs she takes her mouth off of it and it plops over..

She never was fed live, so feeding her live now could be bad. :]


If you know what your doing I don't think whacking is that bad. I personally can't preform a CD.. Its makes sense and when other people do it, it looks easy.. but I don't know why I can't do it.
I've never had a mouse show any living reaction after a whack. It'll twitch and I'll check for a heartbeat and feel none.

---

I switched an adult corn fron ft to live. This snake was full grown and had never even seen a live mouse. The first strike was bad and it took a while for the mouse to die. But today this snake has the most deadly strike and kill of any of my snakes.

As has been said already, there is no F/T - PK debate, so the best we can do as snake enthusiasts and owners is to decide what we're comfortable with when it comes to feeding our snakes. Here's the bottom line -- if you're going to keep snakes, you're going to have dead mice and rats in your home. How they get that way is a question only you can answer.

My story, to toss on the pile. Badoo, my regular BP, eats only live. He was fed, as are all the snake stock at PetSmart, F/T for the first few months of his life, and I switched him immediately to live-and-kicking prey. Here's why:

My first snake, Inferno, was a Tarahumara Mountain King. He ate F/T without a single problem for the first year of his life, but then suddenly turned up his nose at an F/T crew mouse and refused to touch them from there forward. I got about three good months out of PK, during which time I tried several different methods of prekilling and finally settled on CD for my preference. After those three months were over, my Tarahumara insisted on live prey, even though by then his killing instinct was a wash. Someone said "aggressive flopping", and that's pretty accurate. After a few really touch-and-go moments, during which I'm not ashamed to say I employed the squeeze-to-death-with-tongs killing method in order to save my snakes life in an emergency, I was forced to start -- and spend the next six years -- feeding an adult kingsnake live fuzzies by the bucketload because a mouse with its eyes open and it's wits about it was too much a match. I believe that feeding grossly disproportionate prey items for so long stunted my kingsnakes growth, and I believe it also did damage to my heart because every. Single. One. Was. Swallowed. Alive.

Me, personally, I refuse to put myself or my snake in that position again. I feed only live to Badoo, because I insist he always know how to *eat* live prey.

That said, if you're going to prekill, please learn the CD method that's been described in this thread. And if you're going to feed live, you must learn not to be squeamish about watching the snake do it's thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Green Man

As has been said already, there is no F/T - PK debate, so the best we can do as snake enthusiasts and owners is to decide what we're comfortable with when it comes to feeding our snakes. Here's the bottom line -- if you're going to keep snakes, you're going to have dead mice and rats in your home. How they get that way is a question only you can answer.

My story, to toss on the pile. Badoo, my regular BP, eats only live. He was fed, as are all the snake stock at PetSmart, F/T for the first few months of his life, and I switched him immediately to live-and-kicking prey. Here's why:

My first snake, Inferno, was a Tarahumara Mountain King. He ate F/T without a single problem for the first year of his life, but then suddenly turned up his nose at an F/T crew mouse and refused to touch them from there forward. I got about three good months out of PK, during which time I tried several different methods of prekilling and finally settled on CD for my preference. After those three months were over, my Tarahumara insisted on live prey, even though by then his killing instinct was a wash. Someone said "aggressive flopping", and that's pretty accurate. After a few really touch-and-go moments, during which I'm not ashamed to say I employed the squeeze-to-death-with-tongs killing method in order to save my snakes life in an emergency, I was forced to start -- and spend the next six years -- feeding an adult kingsnake live fuzzies by the bucketload because a mouse with its eyes open and it's wits about it was too much a match. I believe that feeding grossly disproportionate prey items for so long stunted my kingsnakes growth, and I believe it also did damage to my heart because every. Single. One. Was. Swallowed. Alive.

Me, personally, I refuse to put myself or my snake in that position again. I feed only live to Badoo, because I insist he always know how to *eat* live prey.

That said, if you're going to prekill, please learn the CD method that's been described in this thread. And if you're going to feed live, you must learn not to be squeamish about watching the snake do it's thing.

---

I don't think eating the fuzzies live would have caused him harm.. a lot of snakes will do that with younger prey and have no problems.

As for Jenn, thanks but no thanks. I'd rather have my snakes on f/t because it's easier, less risk (In my eyes, I always worry when feeding live.. it's just more relaxing for me.), and a lot less complicated for my breeding schedule. When my KSB needs pinkies, I don't have a new set of pinkies every week like some people do (I just don't need that many ASFs yet!) and frozen really is the only realistic thought behind this. I'm working on getting a better schedule for my ASFs breeding, but either way.. I still don't need that many mice. :]
She's never seen a live mouse, and I don't know what she'd do if she did, sure it could turn out like your situation, or the mouse could bite it and cause her death. I just don't know if I want to take that risk with her.

Didn't read teh entire thread so if someone has already said this I'm sorry. Grab it at the neck with your tongs like you did and grab the tail and jerk. It will cause instant death if done right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zues

Didn't read teh entire thread so if someone has already said this I'm sorry. Grab it at the neck with your tongs like you did and grab the tail and jerk. It will cause instant death if done right.

---

That's not a very good way to explain it.. You want to make sure you have the tongs behind the skull so that you can separate the vertebrae. And yes, it was already explained on here. :]

your not a bad person.. but as others have said.
there are more humane ways of putting the animal out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

I don't think eating the fuzzies live would have caused him harm.. a lot of snakes will do that with younger prey and have no problems.

---

They said cause damage to their heart... I think they mean they felt bad about the fuzzies being eaten alive.

I feed live because it's more convenient for me. The largest rats I get are medium sized, so they're not too much of a danger (like a large or jumbo would be) but I still supervise everyone, including my 08's with pups. I spend about half an hour to an hour to make sure they feed right - right for the snake, and right for the rat. Once they've struck, I check to see a) where the rats face is so no one gets bit, and b) if the snake is constricting in the right spot and hard enough. I once walked away for ten minutes after Isis struck at her rat, came back and it was still alive and wiggling, because she'd bitten it's but and coiled around it's tail. I hadn't noticed it..but the rat laid there in agony for ages. I felt so bad afterward..So I've always made sure that everyone's coiled around the food so it's a quicker death. No one cares if i pick them up for a few seconds and rearrange their coils, so it's all good.

I've got a soft heart =/ The only reason I watch them eat is to make sure the snakes are safe and it's as quick as possible for the rats.

If I could get a hold of a good stock of frozen rats, and actually have a place to put them, I'd feed F/T. I don't have the heart to PK them myself. I ended up keeping two weaned pups a couple weeks ago cuz they were way too cute :oops: Of course, I spent the extra money and gas to drive partway across town to get two more rats though heh.

But yea. This is my feeding procedure. I don't think you're a bad person. I think you could have done it better. But you had good intentions.

In regards to the post above me. * Please, if you feel the need to argue with this, do not waste your time because I will not change my mind over this*Personally, the threat of the snake getting attacked by a rat isnt a thought in my mind. I feel fine with puting in the rat and leaving the room to check on something else for a minute or two. If that rats are well fed and smart they will keep away and go hide in a corner. Once this summer I had a snake shed, who didnt eat for two weeks because of it so I threw in a small rat. It was not feeding day and really stupid on my part because I have a horrible memory when I am in a rush. SO I go to work and an hour or two in I remember, and of course I freak out thinking im going to come home to a blood bath because nine hours is neglect to keep a feeder unsupervised in for because in that time alot COULD happen. I cant get ahold of anyone to take it out and ive still got the rest of the day before my shift ends. I go home, and open the tub and the rat is in the corner and the snake is fine. you can trust I just about killed myself for forgeting and I am not saying it is ok to keep a feeder in for more than five minutes without checking, but from all the pictures I have seen with the horrible gashes, its from keepers who have left the rodent in the tank for more than a day. What am I possibly trying to prove here? IDK because ive gone off subject. BUT to those who watch over their snakes the entire time, keep it up! but if you ever have to get those cookies out of the oven befor they burn feel somewhat worry free to do so.

Oh, not to mention I have 14 snakes, It would take all day to feed each one personally watchign because some will only eat with the lights off, someone will only eat when the tub is closed, and some just take forever. But most of the time they strike right away so there isnt a problem to begin with


And no to the OP, you are not a bad person, they have to live/eat and alot of bps will not take f/t or f/k. You would be a bad person if it was starved puppys.

I've glanced at this poll before, but never voted. I just voted no, but I would like to say that there are much better ways to kill something. I didn't read the entire thread, but I'm sure this has been discussed over and over.

Humane this, humane that, everyone's worried about how the rodent is put down, etc, etc...and I might be more agreeable to considering this questions...but...

...then, of course, simply taking a live rodent and dangling it in the face of a sure and inescapable death is totally acceptable, and then, bang, squeak, and then eventual suffocation. Is that ok? if you keep reptiles it has to be.

If PETA where involved they would try and convert ball pythons to vegans, which of course might work if we could take tofu into the lab, shape it like a rodent, and dowse it with the proper scent. That might actually work, come to think of it. Hmmm.

Now, If someone owns a snake that's of considerable investment, and it wont eat f/t, then a gray area presents itself wherein drastic measures might need to be taken. People do funny things when there little scaled obsessions don't want to feed.

Myself,...I prefer not not sugar-coat; if you keep reptiles, rodents are going to die, period...the way it dies is usually decided by how it makes the human feel, i.e., most people feel like crap when they whack it against an immovable object, and I don't like doing that myself.

So, unless I have a snake worth 5K, I feed live.

Thats as close and accurate to nature as it gets.

BrandonsBalls

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BrandonsBalls

Myself,...I prefer not not sugar-coat; if you keep reptiles, rodents are going to die, period...the way it dies is usually decided by how it makes the human feel, i.e., most people feel like crap when they whack it against an immovable object, and I don't like doing that myself.

---

x2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ExoticsBySize

But my mom and lil brother where treating me lil I was Hitler:taz:

---

Just tell them hitler never strangled people. He built gas chambers. :D Thats what I did.

Can't believe I put a smiley face after a sentence referring to Hitler's gas chambers. :confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sg1trogdor

Just tell them hitler never strangled people. He built gas chambers. :D Thats what I did.

---

That is a terrible thing to say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sg1trogdor

Just tell them hitler never strangled people. He built gas chambers. :D Thats what I did.

---

You cannot compare or equate "Hitler" to "Reptile owners", and you cannot compare "gassing humans" to "gassing rodents"; mankind has no real natural enemy, so to kill humans, in any sense, is not a natural occurring process, while rodent exist in the food-chain for an array of natural predators; snakes, large lizards, birds, etc.

Knowing this fact assuages any trace amount of guilt I may have, in that, its natural.

The single most natural way to feed reptiles rodents is live. Any other way, makes it less natural.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sg1trogdor

Just tell them hitler never strangled people. He built gas chambers. :D Thats what I did.

---

Is it wrong that I laughed? O_o

No. Humor takes many forms.

NO, you are not a bad person. A long time ago, I actually had to do the same thing, but w/ a rat. It was when I was still trying to convert my adult female BP to rats. I dropped him in there alive, and he just ran around and stressed my BP out, and she wanted nothing to do w/ him. I tried everything, prescenting, starving her for like 2-3 weeks and everything. Long story short I ended up w/ a rat that my snake wouldn't eat. I had no other herps that ate rats, and the petstore wouldn't take him back/exchange for mice/etc. I didn't have a CO2 chamber, so I pretty much did what you did, except w/ hemostats. It's all part of getting into snakes and learning which ones eat what prey

dang man, how would you like if it someone choked you out with tweezers!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:





nah jus playin you do what you do.

ok to be quite honest im not a person to hurt animals. but i have found that my ball pythons like freshly killed the best. i have try frozen thawed but without any luck with any of my 10 ball pythons. so i kill 10 rats a week what can i say i am dedicated to my animals and will never stand for them to be bitten by a rat.

Drew Lewis

Wow I must suck becuase I whack the thing and then feed it to my snakes. I watched one of my snakes get bit by an adult mouse and that was it for me. I don't feel guilty....I don't feel like a bad person...I own snakes...they like mice and rats.. And quite frankly my "parental insticts" is NOTHING will hurt my babies! That being my child and my animals. :colbert:

Now with all that being said...I am one of the biggest "animal" huggers you will find. I have worked with many different animals throughout my years including working with small mammals at a zoo in Phx. They didn't CO2 the feeders...not saying that is not a great idea. However I refuse to feel guilty or like a I am a cruel person.

You're not a bad person, you're a fine person who made a very bad choice. I think that the fact you didn't look up methods to humanely kill the mouse was a brief moment of laziness or lack of common sense, but it was one mistake. Now you know better. Don't beat yourself up about it.

Pre-killing your snake's mice does not make you a bad person. Perhaps you could have chosen a more effective method of dispatching the mice, but there are certainly worse methods than the one you used so I wouldn't fret over it.

If I were you I would just order frozen rodents in bulk online so you don't have to worry about it. I really am not inclined to beat a rodent to death, not even for the sake of feeding my snake.

Luckily, I live 30 minutes from a Petsmart, and they always have frozen artic mice there...

Just do what they do to pigs, cows and other animals that humans eat at the processing plants. Electric shock them (puts them in a state of nothing) then break there neck or slit it. Your choice.

Quote:

---

Just do what they do to pigs, cows and other animals that humans eat at the processing plants. Electric shock them (puts them in a state of nothing) then break there neck or slit it. Your choice.

---

Ugh, this is why I'm a vegetarian. Lol. :D

No, you're not a bad person.

I let my snake do the dirtywork :stab:

Hey guys, this thread is over a year old..

Approved humane methods seem to be geared toward removing what is thought of as 'brutality' from the method of dispatch. The animal, of course, does not care how brutal the method is, as long as it feels no pain.

A very hard whack to the head is completely humane and causes instant death. It's just more brutal. Don't miss, and your conscience can rest easy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaorte

Hey guys, this thread is over a year old..

---

I was about to say the same thing - this thread is from June 2008.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Approved humane methods seem to be geared toward removing what is thought of as 'brutality' from the method of dispatch. The animal, of course, does not care how brutal the method is, as long as it feels no pain.

---

really?

I know many approved "brutal" methods used to euthanize lab rats.

The spin and smack is a fairly common one apparently, at least according to my college's psych department (they did not practice it, but discussed various methods). Spin the rat by the tail to disorient it, smack its head against the table.

There are even "rat guillotines".

I think people in the "killing rats for feeders" just don't know all of the approved humane methods of dispatching their rats. I agree that a swift smack on the head is a very good and quick way to do it if you are proficient at it. That's how I kill salmon I harvest while fishing, I carry my trusty fish bonker for that very job.

If you can't respect the prey and be humane buy the freaking frozen and thaw them dude. :colbert: