What Is This Little Guy????

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Has a crystal ever produced a normal or only mojave and special?

That wouldn't prove that mojave and special are alleles but it would fail to disprove it.

The special mojave certainly is the complication. Maybe they are a red herring. Some other gene or just really nice mojaves.

I think the “hidden” mutation that turns a lesser into a platy is also in this complex. Seems that there is some variability in how the different versions react. Special seems to lighten more than hidden and also to have an effect when homozygous (unlike hidden). Also, phantom makes white with lesser but dark homozygous. Even if special doesn’t turn out to be in this group it’s plenty interesting.

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Crystals have produced normals and specials and mojaves all in the same clutch. AND there is a Special in this clutch.

are they out yet?????????

If there is no doubt about paternity and all specials can be identified on sight then if a crystal ever produced a true normal we can be sure that mojave and special are NOT alleles like say lesser and mojave. No leucistic can produce normal offspring even if they are a cross line leucistic because they don't have a normal copy of the common gene to pass on. I had thought there was a good chance that special was another allele of the white snake complex and when I saw those very light presumed super was even more confident but a normal offspring from a crystal shoots that theory down.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

If there is no doubt about paternity and all specials can be identified on sight then if a crystal ever produced a true normal we can be sure that mojave and special are NOT alleles like say lesser and mojave. No leucistic can produce normal offspring even if they are a cross line leucistic because they don't have a normal copy of the common gene to pass on. I had thought there was a good chance that special was another allele of the white snake complex and when I saw those very light presumed super was even more confident but a normal offspring from a crystal shoots that theory down.

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No doubt as to the paternity at all...

But... We shall see what Tom has to say about this. I told him this was up here, but he hasn't had time to chime in.

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

No doubt as to the paternity at all...

But... We shall see what Tom has to say about this. I told him this was up here, but he hasn't had time to chime in.

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I hope he comes online i need to axe him some questions. lol.

I want one of his dope shirts!!!!

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

I want one of his dope shirts!!!!

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didnt get one at Rauls?

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Originally Posted by sg1trogdor

didnt get one at Rauls?

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sure did, and his are dope too!

Im starting a dope Tshirt collection, I got 3/1000000 LOL

Thanks again everyone!!!!
Patrick,
I will be getting more shirts soon and I am glad you like them... I know I ran out and a few people didnt get them, but there will be more!:(
Bristen,
I cant believe you remembered when I hatched out the other Crystals... Same thing is going on... I went to bed at about 6:30 this morning waiting for them and only slept til around 11:30... I'm sitting next to the container of eggs now just staring the 3 remaining down!:weirdface I wont sleep til they are all out!:P
Randy,
There have been normals, Pastels, Mojaves, Pastel Mojaves, Special Mojaves (lighter colored Mojaves), Specials, Pastel Specials, Crystals, Pastel Crystals, and now what I feel to be a Super Crystal... I have already sold a "Special" female last year and it has no resemblance to the Mojave/Lesser/Phantom in anyway... It does resemble the original "Special" mother... Although I don't think that I have produced a "Super Special", I donot expect it to be a whitesnake, although stranger things have happened...
I could be wrong, but to me it seems pretty straight forward... As I have stated there are visuals "Specials"... At this point I dont know why anyone would assume that it has anything to do with a hidden gene, especially since it appears that there are Super Crystals...

Well the eye bands on those pastaves are killer.

So just to confirm, normals and pastels (i.e. normals as far as both mojave and special are concerned) have been produced by crystals?

If that's the case, and we can exclude the possibility that some genetic specials could pass for normals, then that means that mojave and special are different genes (not just different mutations of the same gene). This would mean that your current clutch could include homozygous specials that are also mojave.

The basic question comes down to if crystal is a combo of two mutations of different genes that just happen to have a cool interaction like pastel and cinnamon in pewter or is it a combo of two different mutations of the same gene like say phantom and lesser to make karma (or it also looks like lesser and hidden to make platy). A crystal producing a true normal (i.e. not a very subtle special) would answer this question on the side of crystal being like pewter and not karma.

I wouldn't really say that either explanation was more straight forward than the other. How mutations of two different genes like pastel and cinnamon combine to make pewter which seems more than the sum of the parts is surprising to me.

Randy,
This is the first clutch that I have hatched sired by a Crystal male... He just happened to be a Pastel Crystal!:P
I guess only other breeding will see if a normal is produced by a Crystal sire...

Ok, that changes everything, I guess we had a miscommunication there. Until a crystal produces a normal we can't rule out the special gene being a different mutant allele of the same gene as mojave.

Another good test will be what the two light animals from this clutch produce. If either are males and you can spare to breed them to a normal it will be interesting if they can reproduce crystals that way or not.

If special and mojave are alleles (along with lesser and phantom and Vin Russo and latte) then these two must be homozygous specials given they look different from crystal and wouldn’t have room for a mojave version of the same gene. If that's the case they will produce 100% special (or in the case of the presumed pastel one those specials would each have a 50% chance of also being pastel).

But, if special is not a mutation of the same gene as mojave then it's possible one or both of these is homozygous special and also mojave and you could produce crystal breeding it to a normal.

I know it could go either way but without a normal from a crystal yet to prove me wrong I'm back leaning to the allele idea. Of course it will be whatever it will be and you will soon breed enough crystals to know for sure one way or the other. I don't think it would be at all a bad thing if this does turn out to be an allele of the white snake group. It certainly has distinct characteristics and in a way the alleles are easier to predict. There is only room for two versions of the same gene, one from each parent. It's just that we don't yet have as much experience in that area as with combos of unrelated morphs.

The problem is that if a crystal breeding doesn't produce a normal (or a crystal bred to a normal) soon to disprove the allele theory it's very hard to really prove the theory. It's sort of like the homozygous spider. You can't really prove it's impossible just because it hasn't been reported yet. It only takes one to disprove the theory but no agreement on how many misses to prove it.