Jen Harrison Split from Big Daddy's Wholesale Thread

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Originally Posted by JenHarrison

Aside from that, I don't have the will or the energy to start over. After losing the animals that I worked so hard to get and felt attached to -- I don't have the desire to put that kind of time, money, and effort into doing it again.

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Well it looks like your buying snakes now.So it looks like you have the time and energy so just do it right. Are we Suppose to fell sorry for you. :tears:

If its not about the money, keep your collection and keep it closed.
Watch the animals thru their lifetimes.
See if anything happens.

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Originally Posted by JenHarrison

Tosha, you obviously haven't read the whole blog. That went out the window when the info came out about the delay of antibody development -- it nullified the negative test result and still left it wide open that it is OPMV.

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The last thing you have posted from your expert says: "He says this is definitely a new virus, so we have a lot of work ahead of us yet." :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by JenHarrison

Why do I continue to vaccinate the babies and all newcomers? As a precaution -- the same reason I vaccinate my daughter.

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If you feel the need to take "precaution" -- then obviously you don't feel secure with your collection being clean -- and you are jeopardizing the community by continuing to breed and sell. :rolleyes: If you cared at all about those animals you wouldn't be bringing more into the collection - certainly not buying up a bunch more before that 60 day window you keep referring to. And absolutely not releasing any into the community :rolleyes::rolleyes:

And for the person that PM'd me this:

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You should lay low for a little way-------change email accounts and come up with a new business name---------on your site don't give detailed info on where you are from-------these pathetic s will never let it go--------wait till the boards have lots of inventory on them------then slip on in.

in the mean time-------you can start new names on boards to help build up a new rep---------as long as you have not been banned, your alright-------if you have been banned from places---------change your internet provider so you have a new isp-----then you won't get red flag in those boards systems. Find someone else to put their credit/debit through to get back on kingsnake.

just my opinion.
That's an extremely pathetic, low-life thing to do. That's what Wyatt did -- and I'm not stooping to his level.

Since I am always on the lookout for scumbags and the person who sent this pm is obviously one, would you mind telling me who it is? I'd like to avoid any chance of doing any business with them at all.

thanks

I do give you a ton of credit for being as open as you have been on this.
The ones who hide illnesses or the lovely person who sent that PM are really low.
In my eyes you're a person who got dealt a really sucky hand and did the best you could with it.
Close your collection for a couple of years and hit a home run in my 'good guy' book :gj:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Open mouth, insert feet.

Go to fauna.

Do a search on wyatt in texas.

No one has let him slide.

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No I did not open mouth and insert foot, what I did was ask a question about what was happening on THIS forum. If everybody is going to bash Jen on this forum, then they need to address everybody involved in the whole stinking affair. Not everybody reads fauna, just as everybody does not come here. If the situtation is going to be addressed on a forum, then it ALL needs to be addressed. Just my point of view.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

And for the person that PM'd me this:

Quote:
You should lay low for a little way-------change email accounts and come up with a new business name---------on your site don't give detailed info on where you are from-------these pathetic s will never let it go--------wait till the boards have lots of inventory on them------then slip on in.

in the mean time-------you can start new names on boards to help build up a new rep---------as long as you have not been banned, your alright-------if you have been banned from places---------change your internet provider so you have a new isp-----then you won't get red flag in those boards systems. Find someone else to put their credit/debit through to get back on kingsnake.

just my opinion.
That's an extremely pathetic, low-life thing to do. That's what Wyatt did -- and I'm not stooping to his level.

Since I am always on the lookout for scumbags and the person who sent this pm is obviously one, would you mind telling me who it is? I'd like to avoid any chance of doing any business with them at all.

thanks

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I would like to know too..

I 3rd the vote for revealing the underhanded scum.

~Kat

"Jas, my ad was for offspring deemed clear by my vet team. Not for any of the animals that were here during the infectious period. So, I have not been selling sick animals as you say."

Vet team? LMMFAO!! Show me "Your teams" credintials.. As far as I know they are just some people that play with poodle balls!
You are Crazy, If you think you can sell ANYTHING from now on.. Even if you did not cause the problem.. Anyone in there right mind would just Laugh at one of your ads.. Your basically Finished.. Sorry to be so Blunt thats just Me!

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Originally Posted by janeothejungle

I 3rd the vote for revealing the underhanded scum.

~Kat

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I guess my vote would be 4th - Let's here it...
BT

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Originally Posted by FloridaHogs

Why isn't anybody lambasting the guy who sold the infected animal to Jen in the first place and is still selling reptiles? Has knowingly infected more than one collection. Why isn't anybody going after that guy, instead of someone who has made every thing quite public? Just seems kind of screwed up to be throwing stones at someone who has put everything out there for the entire reptile community to see, but ignore the originator of the entire problem who refuses to acknowledge he did anything wrong or that there is a problem. Just a thought you might want to consider.

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Originally Posted by FloridaHogs

No I did not open mouth and insert foot, what I did was ask a question about what was happening on THIS forum. If everybody is going to bash Jen on this forum, then they need to address everybody involved in the whole stinking affair. Not everybody reads fauna, just as everybody does not come here. If the situtation is going to be addressed on a forum, then it ALL needs to be addressed. Just my point of view.

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Perhaps if YOU could write what you MEAN to say and not leave it up to readers to infer what you MEANT to say, you would not have FEET in your mouth.

You never mentioned any one site in particular yet you did ask why no one, inferring everyone on the internet by my reckoning, was going after wyatt.

They have been, they will be, they are. Just because YOU don't know something doesn't mean it doesn't exist; such as the outing of wyatt, yet another scumbag.

Jen~
I was following this tragedy when you were posting it on the TSK forum that you moderate. My heart broke for you and for what you went through and are still going through.
I can't be you, but I can try to place myself in your shoes. I can hear that you care deeply for your snakes and also have a good time breeding and sharing your love of these snakes with others. This is a passion shared by most everyone on this and several other forums.
I hear you when you say that you simply can not cull the rest of the snakes who were exposed to this deadly and new virus and I can appreciate the compassion you have for those snakes.
I do wonder if your passion and compassion has perhaps clouded your better judgment with regards to trading or selling or even fostering reptiles that will eventually leave your home and go to the home of another person.
I question whether you can honestly say to yourself that no harm will come to the snakes at any time in the future, and this question is really what you need to answer after looking deeply inside yourself. I believe that you already have the answer and are trying hard to come to terms with it. You love your snakes!
Regarding the extremely abhorrent private message that you received: I believe that since you publicized it (instead of simply answering it privately) you engaged in some sort of attempt to allow people to see that you are trying to do the right thing. However, by making the document public, I believe that you now have the added responsibility of placing the author's name to it.
I am not using any little emoticons because there is none for the tone of voice that I have used throughout this post. I am speaking in a compassionate and empathic voice. I really feel for where you are right now and I really feel for the sorrow and pain and hassle that you have been through.
The only piece of advice that I feel I could bestow upon you is this: You have been through a lot of pain and loss. Try to take some time off, away from new snakes and away from breeding, to process all of the loss and move through the grief. I really believe that, for you, clarity will come through healing.
All my best, McKinsey

You know Jen, what Mckinsey said was right.

I am not always easy to take, I prefer to speak very plainly so there is little room to doubt what I say.

I have said the same things to you in fewer words.

I too think you know what you need to do and are trying to admit that you know so you can.

Like bandaid removal, quick is better than slow.

I could continually grill you about who sent the pm to you, and I might if you don't tell us who, but I'd prefer not to.

I have nothing personal against you, I don't think you're a scumbag, not yet, you've just been handed the poopy end of the stick and now you need to clean up.

Work with colubrids for a couple of years, let your place clear out of whatever you had and then get back into balls if you want.

The only thing that's forever is if you send this to someone else. No one will EVER forget that you were warned.

Unfortunately, it's not just about you unless you want to completely close yourself to any reptiles going out or coming in. Period.

There is always the slight chance that even colubrids could carry this virus since we don't know exactly what it is much as boas and pythons can give it to crotalids, with whom they have very little in common.

There are just too many unknowns for you to breed anything and keep what you have.

In my opinion anyway.

So, who sent the pm?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Perhaps if YOU could write what you MEAN to say and not leave it up to readers to infer what you MEANT to say, you would not have FEET in your mouth.

You never mentioned any one site in particular yet you did ask why no one, inferring everyone on the internet by my reckoning, was going after wyatt.

They have been, they will be, they are. Just because YOU don't know something doesn't mean it doesn't exist; such as the outing of wyatt, yet another scumbag.

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Now why are you so hostile toward me? I did not make a post attacking or defending anybody, and yet you jump on your soapbox and attack me? YOU assumed I meant the entire internet. I wrote exactly what I meant to the people posting on this thread, the intended audience. I was completely aware of what was on fauna about Wyatt, however, there may be some newbies reading this thread that are not.. I am not an idiot, nor new to the game.

Take it for what it is worth, but some of the post on this thread have shown an incredable amount of immaturity. There are ways to speak and get thoughts and ideas across without sounding like immature jerks.

Since this is going off topic, I am done, unless it directly applies to this thread. Frankly, this conversation is not productive, nor worth continuing.

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Originally Posted by FloridaHogs

Now why are you so hostile toward me? I did not make a post attacking or defending anybody, and yet you jump on your soapbox and attack me? YOU assumed I meant the entire internet. I wrote exactly what I meant to the people posting on this thread, the intended audience. I was completely aware of what was on fauna about Wyatt, however, there may be some newbies reading this thread that are not.. I am not an idiot, nor new to the game.

Take it for what it is worth, but some of the post on this thread have shown an incredable amount of immaturity. There are ways to speak and get thoughts and ideas across without sounding like immature jerks.

Since this is going off topic, I am done, unless it directly applies to this thread. Frankly, this conversation is not productive, nor worth continuing.

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Indeed and LOL.

The same person that was defending Allen Belcher and said he was "never coming back".

Max, I have the energy to buy snakes now because I had been told that it was safe to do so and that my remaining animals were safe to be bred. I still have many of my morphs and beloved pets. If I have to destroy them all and start completely over again, I won't have the will, the energy, or the money to get back to where I was. That's what I was talking about.

Tosha, the entry right after that one you quoted discussed the delayed antibody development and that it nullified the negative test results because the sample females had only been sick for a couple of weeks, which sent everyone back to the OPMV link. Now they're redoing the testing. Perhaps I should go clear it up more. One thing that I keep wondering is that you yourself said you have purchased animals from Wyatt -- and there is no proof as to how long this virus has been in his collection. How do we know that your animals aren't asymptomatic carriers? Or anyone else that has purchased from him in the past? If there is such a big risk with my remaining animals that have never been symptomatic, wouldn't there be a similar risk with your animals from Wyatt?

Jas, the 3 vets working on this case are reptile specialists. Dr. Mark Gordon is the reptile and exotics vet at Fitchburg Animal Hospital -- he is also a lab professor and researcher at the UW Vet School and professor at MATC for their vet tech course. He was previously a veterinarian for the Dept. of Homeland Security. Here is his profile:

http://www.fitchburgvet.com/html/medical_staff.html

Dr. Elliot Jacobsen is the Professor of Zoological Medicine at the University of Florida College of Veterinary Medicine, has a Ph.D. in zoology, and has researched many reptile diseases and published reports/articles on his findings. Here is a profile on him that also lists his publications:

http://sacs.vetmed.ufl.edu/Faculty/jacobson.htm

The third vet is Wyatt's other victim -- Dr. Jason Brodnik, a veterinary laser surgeon at the International Veterinary Academy of Pain Management in Colorado -- aside from specializing in reptiles, he also keeps and breeds many different species himself. Those are the 3 vets working on this virus -- and I think they're about as qualified as you can get.

Alicia, it isn't about the money. But I wouldn't have purposely kept a large collection if I hadn't planned to breed it and use the offspring to gain other animals that I wanted. Not to mention the fact that 90% of my remaining animals are not exactly nice or handleable. It's quite expensive to feed and maintain this many just to keep them as pets, especially when I can't see or touch them. If it comes down to the fact that I have to destroy them, then I will be doing so except for my 2 true pets. I will keep Spoon and Lucky and be thankful that I still have them. But it doesn't change the fact that everything I enjoyed has now been ruined and there seems to be no way to fix it or continue on.

I'm going to repeat this info again to clear it up for a final time, since some just can't seem to understand it and keep spreading rumors and bringing it up. I have not sold, traded, or adopted out a single animal since well before this virus arrived. Nothing has left my collection except for dead bodies that went to the labs. I had my '08 babies reserved by quite a few people, but have since cancelled those reservations. I have not recieved a single donated animal, thus have not sold or traded anything from anyone.

So what is the general consensus -- what would it take for people to trust my offspring? Killing everything I have? Or going a few years without any problems?

Jen or i mean>>>>JUDAS I love how you took are conversations out of context and used them to benefit yourself. You did this knowing i was disliked do to my Big Daddy posts. YOU will do anything to take the blame off of yourself. I love to cut and paste. So here is what you wrote me incase you forgot.

From Fauna after you edited your add.

Originally Posted by belvis
do you have any female pastels or mojaves?

-- I don't breed pastels, and I only had one female mojave but she's on hold at the moment. Let me talk to the person that wanted her and I will let you know if she becomes available again. I will have spiders in 3 more weeks, the clutch is due to hatch on the 20th. Thanks!
__________________
~* Jen *~

From here on Thursday--------
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Originally Posted by JenHarrison

i'm still waiting to hear from you about that female mojave you had on hold for someone. Let me know

Hey there -- I haven't heard back from her yet. I e-mailed her to see if she would prefer 1.1 spiders instead of 1.1 mojaves, but no reply yet. I'll let you know when I do.

After all that has been dramatized in the last 48 hours, you're still OK buying from me? I have tried to make it as clear as possible that my babies are just fine, and that my vets cleared them to be OK. I just wonder if some people will still be turned away by the idiots that have no idea what they're talking about. You know?


Jen-----------------why don't you post the other PM i sent you???????????????????????????????????

Since you love blaming other peolpe----I guess you won't------------I Will

My other PM to you------------Friday
Well i wish you the best of luck----i did not mean for you to sell sick snakes, i meant for you to distance yourself from these people, you'll be better off in the long run. If everything goes well with your snakes, go public. If its 2 years from now, these same people will give you the same . By the looks of half their pictures, they need to worry about their nasty dirty selves instead of Big Daddy's dirty cages. Obviously they love to attack people from behind there computers.

look back at last month, all they did was attack JNJ----then it was Big Daddy, now you.

if you want to be a Judas, go ahead-----i'm only judging you unbiasly, unlike your so called peers.

You new I was not going to write on here again----are you that dumb to think I wouldn't follow up with this? To think I Stood up for only to get stabbed in the back------Jog OFF

Oh boy...I ain't even going to start...
BT

Jen,

You have outs. I am not going to comment on you selling anything now. As it has already been posted by many. But you have outs. here they are.

You want to continue to breed. You want to continue to keep the animals you have. And you have stated that a few breeders have offered you snakes for nothing. This to me tells me you have outs.

I would seperate the animals you have now. I am not 100% on how this virus works as you have said it is new. So I would get another building or place to keep them or the new animals you have been offered. If it were me I would not be keeping the "infected" animals in the same building.

But you have an offer from some very kind people to help you out and get you back to where you say you once were. So you say you do not have the money or will to rebuild but you have some great people guiding you?!?!

The other way to go is step back for a few years. You now have babies to grow up to see how they react. Right? This will help in the studies about this virus. Come back once more is known.

I read your story. It sucks. I would not wish it on anyone. And I know you would not either. That is where some are coming from. There is a risk no matter how small it is when you sell them babies.

Talk to these fine people that offered you snakes for free. Work with them. I would find a new place for the new snakes if it were me. New cages and everything. That is me.

The steps are there Jen. All you have to do is take the first step and then the next. You will be at the top soon enough if you do not skip a step.

Good luck
Gary

I think that you might not have to destroy the extra snakes. You could sell them to people as pets but make sure that these people are not selling/trading or giving away animals - they would need to be people who aren't going to suddenly need to get rid of their collection a couple years down the line as well. They would have to be people who are known as established/stable and trustworthy. I have no doubt that you would fully disclose the situation.

The goal is to prevent the spread of the virus.
I know there are many people here and on other forums who do not breed/sell/trade animals who might go for one of these animals.

I'd like to think there are ways to get you out from under the extras without resorting to euthenasia. I'm sort of naive though.... so everyone should feel free to jump in on their opinions of this idea. I'm prepared to be shown the error of my ways if I am wrong :)

It would be ideal if you could manage to sell your non-pet balls under controlled circumstances and allow you to take the couple years off with just your pets. Then you can continue pursuing your dream :gj:

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Originally Posted by JenHarrison

[COLOR=deeppink]The same person that was defending Allen Belcher and said he was "never coming back".

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That figures :rolleyes:, thanks for clearing that out.

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Originally Posted by fishmommy

I think that you might not have to destroy the extra snakes. You could sell them to people as pets but make sure that these people are not selling/trading or giving away animals - they would need to be people who aren't going to suddenly need to get rid of their collection a couple years down the line as well. They would have to be people who are known as established/stable and trustworthy. I have no doubt that you would fully disclose the situation.

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I have to disagree with that, from the moment a snake would be out of Jen’s collection it would hardly be possible to track especially in the long run (over a period of 30+ years)

Too many things can happen to people within 30+ years (including losing touch with them) and if they re-home animal that happens to be asymptomatic carrier, this is another tragedy waiting to happen.

The risk is too high and no animals should get out of Jen’s collection period.

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Originally Posted by belvis

Jen or i mean>>>>JUDAS I love how you took are conversations out of context and used them to benefit yourself. You did this knowing i was disliked do to my Big Daddy posts. YOU will do anything to take the blame off of yourself. I love to cut and paste. So here is what you wrote me incase you forgot.

From Fauna after you edited your add.

Originally Posted by belvis
do you have any female pastels or mojaves?

-- I don't breed pastels, and I only had one female mojave but she's on hold at the moment. Let me talk to the person that wanted her and I will let you know if she becomes available again. I will have spiders in 3 more weeks, the clutch is due to hatch on the 20th. Thanks!
__________________
~* Jen *~

From here on Thursday--------
Quote:
Originally Posted by JenHarrison

i'm still waiting to hear from you about that female mojave you had on hold for someone. Let me know

Hey there -- I haven't heard back from her yet. I e-mailed her to see if she would prefer 1.1 spiders instead of 1.1 mojaves, but no reply yet. I'll let you know when I do.

After all that has been dramatized in the last 48 hours, you're still OK buying from me? I have tried to make it as clear as possible that my babies are just fine, and that my vets cleared them to be OK. I just wonder if some people will still be turned away by the idiots that have no idea what they're talking about. You know?


Jen-----------------why don't you post the other PM i sent you???????????????????????????????????

Since you love blaming other peolpe----I guess you won't------------I Will

My other PM to you------------Friday
Well i wish you the best of luck----i did not mean for you to sell sick snakes, i meant for you to distance yourself from these people, you'll be better off in the long run. If everything goes well with your snakes, go public. If its 2 years from now, these same people will give you the same . By the looks of half their pictures, they need to worry about their nasty dirty selves instead of Big Daddy's dirty cages. Obviously they love to attack people from behind there computers.

look back at last month, all they did was attack JNJ----then it was Big Daddy, now you.

if you want to be a Judas, go ahead-----i'm only judging you unbiasly, unlike your so called peers.

You new I was not going to write on here again----are you that dumb to think I wouldn't follow up with this? To think I Stood up for only to get stabbed in the back------Jog OFF

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bevis, you're the judas. By your own posts she proves that she was not trying to pull anything over anyone, had not yet sold anything, even though at THAT time she still intended to and that YOU were willing to take the risk of spreading an unknown to who knows where.

Jen, what is bevis's actual name?

The guy is a TOTAL scumbag and needs to be known by more than his user name here and scumbag everywhere else.

wilomn-------Obviously you are a fine upstanding gentleman of taste and distinction and can't read...
At the same time she was writing these posts about NOT going to sell her snakes, she pulled her adds etc., she was trying to broker a deal with me to buy her babies...

If you want to know who i am, why not just ask me?
I will gladly give you my number--------we'll see if you tough talkers will call without blocking your numbers...

i don't care what you opinion is of me-----i only have relations with 1 bored member, and their the only persons i will continue to talk with-----------if you think i'm a scumbag-----OH WELL_________

i have sold many snakes this year--------with no problems...
and will continue to do so.

Your getting pretty irritating. I've kept quite while reading this thread, due to the fact I have no idea what is really going on. From the looks of it, you were inquiring to begin with and trying to talk her into doing something morally wrong. You were willing to buy the snakes, knowing the entire situation, and what you could possibly cause. What does this say about yourself, your morals, and what actions your willing to take? It speaks pretty low of your morals and understanding of the hobby...

I'd like to know exactly who you are. It'll let me know who to avoid in the future. Please show proof of who you are as well...

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Originally Posted by belvis

wilomn-------Obviously you are a MORON and can't read...
At the same time she was writing these posts about NOT going to sell her snakes, she pulled her adds etc., she was trying to broker a deal with me to buy her babies...

If you want to know who i am, why not just ask me?
I will gladly give you my number--------we'll see if you tough talkers will call without blocking your numbers...

i don't care what you opinion is of me-----i only have relations with 1 bored member, and their the only persons i will continue to talk with-----------if you think i'm a scumbag-----OH WELL_________

i have sold many snakes this year--------with no problems...
and will continue to do so.

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Originally Posted by JenHarrison

One thing that I keep wondering is that you yourself said you have purchased animals from Wyatt -- and there is no proof as to how long this virus has been in his collection. How do we know that your animals aren't asymptomatic carriers? Or anyone else that has purchased from him in the past? If there is such a big risk with my remaining animals that have never been symptomatic, wouldn't there be a similar risk with your animals from Wyatt?

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Because in the three years since he entered my collection - no one prior has complained about Wyatts animals killing off their animals so it's unlikely that he's had it that long. As you can clearly contest this isn't something that would be able to hide in a collection without something else getting sick - my snake has been bred, he has been put in tubs with others during cleaning and moving and the kids take a bunch of them out at a time to play with them - if there was an opportunity for cross contamination I'd have sick snakes - yet I haven't a single sick animal - I am 100% certain he's clean. Other people that bought from Wyatt in the past didn't just have a bunch of animals die on them - that is where the difference lies. Yeah it's possible that someone that has recently bought from him might have an asymptomatic carrier but if the snake I bought three years ago were a carrier - it would be even more reason for you not to be releasing any further animals into the community wouldn't you think?

If you want to keep the animals you have - your only choice is to not breed - not bring any other animals into your collection and not let any out. Give it some time - and by time I don't mean 60 days I mean like a year or so - then if you decide you want to try breeding again - buy a few animals - don't vaccinate them - incorporate them into your collection and wait and see if they get sick - if they all are healthy after a period of time - you have a better chance at convincing people that you are trying to do the right thing by your animals and the community - then jumping back into it before you even know what you have on your hands.

bevis, I generally try NOT to have any more contact with scumbags such as yourself than absolutely necessary.

Since you chose to send me the pm I am posting below I'll grant you your favor this one time.

Who are you? I would like to know your name so I can put it on my scumbag don't buy from or sell to list.
________________________________________
well
If you want to know who i am why don't you just ask----------are you too much of a *****?
_________________________________________

Who are you in real life bevis?

I do have to comment on a few things.
I've followed the thread here, on fauna and her blog and I haven't found any lies. Could someone please point that in the right direction so I can read these for myself?
Also, to anyone who has or had this virus in their collection what's happening to Jen is going to make dang sure no one is foolish enough to post information again and to those who never made mention that they had it are looking at all this and patting themselves on the back for never letting anyone know.
Previously we've asked for proof of accusations, so I'd love to see the proof that she's sold donated snakes. Also, who has donated snakes and sent them to her so far?
Also, since there seems to be a need to attack her vets why not give them a ring? She's posted the information, I believe that Tosha did at one point call (due to something on fauna, if I'm mistaken Tosha I apologize) and ask them to verify some things?

All in all I'm just astounded at the attacks being allowed. Wow. Whether Jen is right or wrong there is no reason for half the crap being said. These lynch threads sure bring out the best in people....:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

bevis, I generally try NOT to have any more contact with scumbags such as yourself than absolutely necessary.

Since you chose to send me the pm I am posting below I'll grant you your favor this one time.

Who are you? I would like to know your name so I can put it on my scumbag don't buy from or sell to list.
________________________________________
well
If you want to know who i am why don't you just ask----------are you too much of a *****?
_________________________________________

Who are you in real life bevis?

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Wes, just to let you know we edited your post to remove the offensive language Belvis chose to use in his PM to you. There's no infractable offense to you - just simply it needed to be edited for that one word.

I have not had dealings with Jen Harrison, but have had a lot of interaction with her on the board. As a person I don't have any problems with her. As a breeder I can not say anything due to the fact that I personally have not dealt with her on that level.

As far as the separate building for quarantine brought up in the post here goes I have to question the validity of that. Most starting out breeders do not have the luxury of this and thus they are attempting to do their best by having a quarantine room. Granted this does not always help to protect against air born diseases, some things can be done to help protect against these things when you have to do this. A Hepa filter in a forced air furnace intake can help by filtering out extremely small particles that get sucked into an intake. Also making sure your quarantine room is kept at a negative pressure with the exhaust being filtered through a Hepa filter system. Does all this protect you 100%? No, but it is a good starter for the beginning breeder or keeper.

As for he said/she said information on the ordeal Jen Harrison has went through I would have to tell you to go to her blog and read it. At this time I think she has disclosed enough information for an educated person to make their own decision on buying from her or not. I personally will not do to the added disclosure I believe I would need to have with possible future customers to be 100% ethical. At least for another couple years until I see the full fall out of the situation she had/has with vaccinations and possible re-occurrence of the situation I'm not willing to take the risk, but after that time if things prove not to be a problem I may deal with her.

Posts on reviews that go into debate like this have significant ramifications for anyone in the business. If a business makes comments about another business in an open forum like this that can not be backed up with factual information or personal experience they leave themselves open to a possible case for slander. Due to the geographical area this board covers it would be classified as a Federal case. I wonder why you don't see very many big breeders posting in here?

The above information is a personal opinion. No information contained in it should be classified as a fact unless factual information to back it up can be found. Basically take it or leave it, but any fall out you receive either way is not the fault of the original poster of this reply to the thread!:D

Mel - in the beginning my vet did try to contact - I believe it was Dr. Gordon - but received no return contact, we had gotten information on the virus from some other sources and went from there. There were others that delved into the issues more than I - all I wanted to know about was the virus and I'd gotten what I needed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JenHarrison

Alicia, it isn't about the money. But I wouldn't have purposely kept a large collection if I hadn't planned to breed it and use the offspring to gain other animals that I wanted. Not to mention the fact that 90% of my remaining animals are not exactly nice or handleable. It's quite expensive to feed and maintain this many just to keep them as pets, especially when I can't see or touch them. If it comes down to the fact that I have to destroy them, then I will be doing so except for my 2 true pets. I will keep Spoon and Lucky and be thankful that I still have them. But it doesn't change the fact that everything I enjoyed has now been ruined and there seems to be no way to fix it or continue on.

---

If this is directed at me, my name is Heather.

OK so I emailed Dr. Jacobsen to find out if he had acctually advised Jen that it would be ok to sell off the hatchlings and start rebuilding her collection. I received this from him today:


**edit**

Appologies text of email temporarily removed pending staff discussion.

dr del

**end edit**

um, wow.

OK Jen, care to comment?
That is a very damaging email!
It seems your vet DID NOT tell you it was OK to sell your animals.
It appears they do not know what it was since this is a NEW virus.

Was the correct vet e-mailed?

According to her journal, a Dr Gordon was her primary contact through this whole ordeal?

I am not sure about the journal but she said here that her vet team oked her to sell the babies.

I hope this gets worked out. Maybe jen just misunderstood?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

OK so I emailed Dr. Jacobsen to find out if he had acctually advised Jen that it would be ok to sell off the hatchlings and start rebuilding her collection. I received this from him today:

**edit**

Appologies text of email temporarily removed pending staff discussion.

dr del

**end edit**
__________________
Tosha

JET Pythons

---

Oh gosh. I feel that it would be ethical to distribute this communication from Dr. Jacobson, after first notifying Jenn, to any and all people alleged to be donating and/or selling snakes to her to help rebuild her collection.
I also feel strongly, Jenn, you need to shut down your business and take time to process all of this. The communication from the professor is definitive; it is out of your hands now Jenn.

Would it be possible to get the email that the vet was replying to?

[QUOTE=JenHarrison;775429]Who said I'm selling donated animals? I haven't recieved anything from anyone yet, and I would never sell something that was given to me. I don't know where that came from. :confused:

Jas, my ad was for offspring deemed clear by my vet team. [/QOUTE]
Were they CLEARED by the vet team or did you just want to hear that they were cleared?

Quote:

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Not for any of the animals that were here during the infectious period. So, I have not been selling sick animals as you say.

Tosha, you feel that the eggs should never have been incubated. Opinions are like...well, you know that whole line.

Wes, when everyone first shredded me for quarantining in a separate rack but same room, I was repeatedly berated and told it had to be a different room altogether (which I had to learn the hard way). Now when I decide to actually do exactly that and use a different room, I'm being told that that isn't correct either? So what about the hundreds of other keepers whose home-based breeding efforts have quarantines set up in extra rooms? I guarantee you only a handful of people that breed snakes have an entirely separate building to quarantine in. You tell me to "grow up and stop making excuses for why I'm keeping them" -- there are no excuses. I'm selling the offspring that I hadn't intended on producing and that I was told would be PERFECTLY HEALTHY. I'm not attached to these babies -- they don't even have names. [/QOUTE]

Again, were you told in so many words that they would be perfectly healthy and if so by whom?

[QOUTE] But the adults that I decided not to unnecessarily kill do have a lot of emotional meaning for me, and I don't in any way find that immature or an excuse.

Since everyone here seems to have opinions, why don't you all tell me what the hell I'm supposed to do? You're the ones I have to deal with if I want to continue in this hobby, so tell me what would make you feel confident in me and my animals?

---

Jen, maybe it's just the way you write.

You've written several times in several forums that all your snake died.

Except one or two or three.

That all you snakes were sick.

Except one or two or three.

Well, I've never had a ticket, except for that time I was caught speeding and got written up.

See why it's tough to follow what you've said?

tasha, I'd like to see a copy of the email you sent to Dr. Jacobson please. Including headers and footers.

I second (or is it third?) that. I've been following this from the beginning and have been willing to give Jen the benefit of the doubt-up until this whole debacle about her selling snakes. And now we have this vet saying that she's basically been BSing us all about her having been cleared to sell her babies. Very interesting.

I'm pretty sure she'll just continue saying that Doctor Gordo said it was ok, and this doctor doesn't know what he's talking about etc etc...

This isn't reasurring in the least.

From the TSK forums. (which I can't register with? Must have banned gmail?)

http://ballpython.com/forum/viewtopi...=5060&start=30

Quote:

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Dr. Brodnik also gave me some good news last night – I’m able to continue working with my breeding projects and can keep going with my hobby:

---

So is it Dr. Brodnik that needs to be consulted? Or should they all be contacted?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

OK so I emailed Dr. Jacobsen to find out if he had acctually advised Jen that it would be ok to sell off the hatchlings and start rebuilding her collection. I received this from him today:

---

Well, this pretty much put's an end to all the speculation. The virus was not identified, nor were any animals cleared to be released.

This sure reinforces only buying animals from known and trusted sources.

Considering Dr. Jacobson is the specialist and the one running the tests and the only one that really knows what is going on - one would assume that is the advise to follow - however - Jen has been following her own agenda. And Dr. Gordon doesn't return calls. :rolleyes:

My initial email to Dr. Jacobson - I was a bit POed and basically called him negligent for advising Jen to release these animals into the community. After receiving his email I have apologized for the previous one - as apparently I'd gotten misinformation - and he's sent another email to me - in which he asks that these not be distributed - ooops.

Since I can't unring that bell - I would be willing to share them with one person who I can trust to verify what needs to be verified but keep them forthwith off the internet. I think that is only fair - I have got to go back and apologize to the good Dr. yet again.

Hi,

Given his wishes that these not be distributed I feel it is wise to temporarily remove the text from your previous post until you manage to either get his permission or have him contact the site with his wishes.

Thank you for alerting us to this.


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Given his wishes that these not be distributed I feel it is wise to temporarily remove the text from your previous post until you manage to either get his permission or have him contact the site with his wishes.

Thank you for alerting us to this.


dr del

---

I would think all the PM's quoted in this thread be considered under the same pretense! If the origional author does not put it in an open forum would it possibly not be the wishes of that person that it not be put it here?

This thread has liability and lawsuits written all over it! The good doctor did not want his E-mail published: Strike one, it got published! The damage is now irreversible. Also the doctor shared information that may fall under a client confidentiality issue! That person was never given the right to publish, but did! How many people read it?

Oh boy if I was a lawyer right now my eyes would be seeing dollar signs as I was contacting people!

Someone got it on Fauna's BOI...and nothin' gets deleted off of there...

I also was curious about client confidentiality...Is he legally allowed to talk to anyone that calls/emails about a customers/patients case?

If she did not go directly to him and her vet asked for support. I would not see it as him breaking client confidentiality. As he was just asked to do lab work by another vet. Now if this is not the case who knows. But it should not even come to that. This is getting out of hand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gloryhound

I would think all the PM's quoted in this thread be considered under the same pretense! If the origional author does not put it in an open forum would it possibly not be the wishes of that person that it not be put it here?

This thread has liability and lawsuits written all over it! The good doctor did not want his E-mail published: Strike one, it got published! The damage is now irreversible. Also the doctor shared information that may fall under a client confidentiality issue! That person was never given the right to publish, but did! How many people read it?

Oh boy if I was a lawyer right now my eyes would be seeing dollar signs as I was contacting people!

---

Hi,

The following is my personal opinion only and in no way constitues the position of the staff and, since I have the legal knowledge of a weevil, it must also be assumed that I am unable to provide legal opinions.

On the subject of the Pm's;

I see what you are saying but there are differences - the pm's were sent within the site and not published outwith the site.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Site T.O.S.

18. All content belongs to BP.net and may not be redistributed elsewhere without Administrator approval. Posts, photos, caresheets, or other intellectual property of other members, contributors, or staff, may not be used outside the Site without express, documented permission of said person. Public posting of permission by other member under his/her own user-name is considered documented permission, as is non-anonymous e-mail or a stored Private Message on this Site.

---

(MY emphasis only)

They were also clearly (again my opinion only) in violation of the rules that the sender had agreed to upon joining.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Site T.O.S.

8. No posts promoting illegal behavior will be tolerated, including but not limited to warez/pirating of copyrighted material, illegal drug or alcohol usage, and illegal ownership or trafficking of species.

---

A step by step guide on how to set up an alternate online personality with the explicit intent to decieive others hardly falls within the spirit of legal or moral behaviour.

On the subject of the emails;

I agree it is unfortunate that permission was not sought before the publishing but since it only took 4 minutes from discovering this to removing the information on a purely voluntary basis I'm not sure what more you think the site should, or could, have done?

I, obviously, cannot and will not attempt to speak for the BOI.

I also, being in a different country with a different legal system, have not the first understanding on whether or not doctor patient confidentiallity exists within the vetinary profession in any way shape or form.

All of these points will be very carefully considered by the staff I assure you. But this will take time and a better understanding than I can currently bring to the discussion so I would ask that you bear with us until reasoned consideration has taken place.


dr del

There actually isn't a law on the confidentiality of electronic mail - even those with the disclaimer on the bottom - aren't by law confidential - ironic aint it.

But that is beside the point - the email was addressed to me and was my property - at the time there was no confidentiality (written or implied) between myself and the Dr. and the request for confidentiality came after the fact and was quickly remedied. As it stands the removal of the information was a simple courtesy. Those of you that know me know I am big on confidentiality - so I don't take this lightly.

Whether there was a Dr. patient breech on behalf of the Dr. by what he told me - I don't know - he really didn't say anything I didn't already know? And, considering what she has quoted all over her blog it would be hard for her to imply that there was some strict confidentiality agreement anyway. Not to mention that it would blow that whole "full disclosure to the community" thing she was going for right out of the water. :rolleyes:

For what it's worth - it really is better to have it out there that this current course of action is not under the recommendation of the specialists researching the virus but rather Jens agenda and that her animals really should not be trusted at this time.

Thank you again Dr. Del for removing the text.