How Frequently Do You Feed Your BPs?

Babies every five days my adults every seven.

Thanks Gorilla! That post was really informative for anyone who feeds F/T...

Crazy about that poor guy! Sounds like he may have unintentionally ate some meat! If your body is not used to it, it will make you incredibally sick like that... As far as pulse stopping and no breathing... that is pretty scary.

Also... Much Respect! Keep up the good work on your calls... I am 23 and almost died from a sudden annurism above my stomach a couple months back... If the EMT's would not have been as thourough as they were it would have been passed off as stomach flu and I would have been dead within a couple hours. I've got a scar going down the entire length of my stomach... But thanks to people like you I still get enjoy Breathing! Thanks:salute:

Thanks for the kudos man. I really love what I do. My patient today didn't even want to goto the hospital at first. I had to talk him into it! Yeah, I know some vegetarians that get sick when they have beef broth! But, us humans need our nutrients from meat AND veggies. Gotta love those incisors! lol Watch that blood pressure if you've had an anuerysm. I had a 60 yo female pt who was having a heart attack which caused her BP to spike and caused her aneurysm to burst again. It was aortic and she died in the cath lab. Said commentary.

Keep up the good work with those reptiles, bro. I like sharing information with people and learning. You're a pretty well-rounded and level-headed guy from what I can tell. Keep in touch!

WCJ thanks for the kudos.

I think we've got some good opinions about this going. As long as people don't start saying "my way, or the hiway" I'm happy. :)

I love Ron White. All his stuff is funny. But I do take issue with the fact that you 'need' meat in your diet. I've been a vegetarian my whole life, and I have no deficiencies. I'm in perfect health. Medical research has shown that the longest living people on average are vegetarians, their heart rates are an average of 20 bpm lower than the average population. And biologically our digestive system is more tuned to deal with fruit, grain, vegatables, etc... I can find references if you wish. :)

All that being said. I think you can be perfectly healthy eating meat, and being vegetarian. Just as your snake can be perfectly healthy eating f/t, or live. :banana::O:taz:

Thanks for the input Bissell. I didn't mean to imply that vegetarians are more/less healthy than us omnivores. I've got no problem with it. I love my red meat though and I try to stay healthy by working out and moderating my diet. I'm not in too bad shape. I had a g/f that was a vegetarian. I do make sure I get my fair share of veggies though! I love my veggies and my red meat.

I was wondering, as a vegetarian, is it recommended that you take a protein supplement (whey or soy)? Where do you get your fats from? Starches? Just curious. Thanks for keeping everyone informed!

lol. I took no offense. :gj:

Really, vegetarians don't need to take any protien supplements. I don't. If you've got a reasonably balanced diet there aren't any problems. All the protein the human body needs can be gained if you eat different grains (not just wheat), rice, and beans. Fats, you're body doesn't need much fat at all. Veggie Oil, and Olive oils, and veggie based butter product give all the fat needed, even in very small amounts. Your body actually produces most of the fats it needs from other foods. Starches really aren't hard to get as a vegetarian, potatoes are a big source.

:O Now the thread has been hijacked :O

My bad... :tears:

haha, we'll stop hijacking. thanks though!

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Originally Posted by 51-50 Python

for that size.. i would recommend 1 mouse a week.. n when it gets bigger like 2 feet long.. start giving it small rats once a week... but dont ever give it something u think it cant handle because i made that mistake once by giving my ball a huge rat.. and i would also recommend giving ur ball live mice instead of frozen.. i dont know why poeple even give it frozen food at all i guess some people are scared the mouse or rat will damage the snake but ive never had that problem and ive had my ball for 5 months

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No offense but 5 months isnt very long. I feed live also But I watch it the whole time untilwither the snake takes it or I am satisfied that the snake will not eat it and remove it. I also do not feed live to my larger snakes only when they are babies. I find it harder to get my babies to eat F/t. If you wanna see any photos of animals that have been bitten by their prey If no one else post them I will.,

i feed mine a rat every wednesday.

wonder who voted 14 days??

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Originally Posted by 51-50 Python

u mean as in live mice have parasites and frozen ones dont? plenty of ppl feed live mice and have never had a problem with parasites

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My only all live feeder has gotten tapeworms and pinworms. Pinworms are no biggie, but tapeworms are not good. I gave him meds for both. It is something I have to deal with because he only eats Live. I feel whatever someone's snake will eat reliably and is ok for their owner is what they need to eat. Most of my snakes eat well and get just as excited over FT. Some over of my males are unenthusiatic about FT, so i try to give them live as often as I can. To me, people feed their dogs all kind of trash, I feel like feeding your dog anything but raw meat and bones and whole animals isn't necessarily their ideal diet. But not everyone can do this sort of thing. I don't think someone who feeds their dog kibble is any less a dog lover, just like I don't think someone who feeds their family vegetarian is any less concerned about their family's health. i believe most people should eat animal proteins because it is how they evolved.
I think the argument over FT vs live or PK is dumb. You gotta do what you gotta do. There are pros and cons to both. Many snakes like kings and corns will eat a pre-dead animal in the wild, they aren't specifically scavengers, but they will take a freebie when they find it. Well raised live ASF rats is probably the ideal diet for balls, however not all of us can hand raise the little dudes. As long as you aren't feeding your snake hot dogs or cooked mice, it's PROBABLY healthy enough. If you think FT might destroy some vitamins, look for supplementation. Don't feed stuff that has been frozen for more than a year or so and if you do feed live, be prepared for your snake to get bit at least once or twice-it's why they have such touch scales! Have some tongs ready to redirect a possible bite. It's really all a matter of what someone feels is best. I appreciate those of you trying to present your feelings and opinions because there really isn't any evidence for or against either side being "THE BEST WAY TO DO IT!" If you read something somewhere, post a link here so we can read it too.
:P
I feed babies (200-300 grams or less) an adult mouse or baby rat every five days, and anyone bigger gets either as many adult mice as is appropriate to make a noticeable lump or a good sized rat. Usually most large adult BPs are well fed a small rat, but don't hesitate to check and make sure with a good herp vet or an experienced and trustworthy person about what size is ideal for your snake!

As often as they will eat

I have read alot of opinions on the matter, not only here but on many many other posts. I think that it is up to the Snake and its owner and whats best for them.

I do have to say that I have read alot of "Its natural and you want to be as close to natural as possible"
Not exactly true b/c the animal is captive. there is no natural to them with the feeding. the way they are "programed" is as different for each snake in the wild as it is the snake in each one of our homes. Esp CBB. but certainly not limited to CBB.

Your snake will let you know what its likes and dislikes are. I am sure that if a snake owner didn't believe this then they wouldnt have gotten the snake in the first place.

Sorry to have written a novel here, just my own opinion.

~Hollie~:):P:cool:

i offer a mouse every 3-4 days for my juveniles (under 600grams) and a mouse or more every 6ish days for anything bigger

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Originally Posted by Skoalbasher

Well, how do we know how often they eat in the wild? Does somebody chill out for a couple of weeks and follows one BP to see it's feeding habits? Or are we just guessing they should eat once a week?

I feed live because.. well, there are no F/T rats in the wild.

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i completely agree with that. i do enjoy watching my snake eat i guess.... it's intense... but i watch mainly for making sure that the snake doesn't get bit... i don't know what i would do if it did but... i just watch to make sure everything is a okay. i rescued my ball not too long ago and i just want it to have a natural comfortable life.

feeding live is just a personal preference... more like nature than frozen i guess?

maybe some part of me thinks that hunting the snake hunting the mouse/rat while it's alive entertains some sort of snakely adrenaline rush, and my snake gets to feel like a bad ass as he waits for the rodent to stop breathing... yikes i don't know haha maybe i thought about it too much ;) i love my snake i want him to be healthy and happy, and feeding live thus far has done fine for me. :cool:

i say once every 7 days is what most ppl do, so for now thats the schedule i'm in and he seems happy about it :)

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Originally Posted by 51-50 Python

i dont know why poeple even give it frozen food at all i guess some people are scared the mouse or rat will damage the snake but ive never had that problem and ive had my ball for 5 months

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because i would rather have a dead rat thawing on my counter then having to pay a ton of money in vet bills cause a rat got ahold of my snake... it has happend to me (a mouse bit a ball of mine, nothing horable, but it made me want to switch them faster... they were rescues)
5 months... is it small? that would possibly be why you dont have problems, my small snakes sometimes get live fuzzies, and stuff... never live as older snakes...

just not safe IMO...
btw,
my big ball akua, my adult JCP, and my BRB all eat on saturdays, and my other snakes eat on fridays, because the food the big 3 eat takes longer to thaw =]

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Can you point me to a study that says that live is healthier and more exciting for the snake than f/t? The fact that there are thousands of animals feed f/t that are thriving in collections around the world is proof enough that f/t is no less healthy than feeding live.

I am impressed with my snakes and the fact that they are perfectly designed to dispatch their prey - but if entertainment value is the reason to choose to feed live, the keeper might want to re-think their reason for having a snake.

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Ok, first, I haven't read this entire thread yet, but I have to disagree with at least part of this post.

"I am impressed with my snakes and the fact that they are perfectly designed to dispatch their prey - but if entertainment value is the reason to choose to feed live, the keeper might want to re-think their reason for having a snake."

What is so wrong with enjoying watching a snake kill it's prey? Shouldn't feeding be a large point of consideration before ever purchasing a snake? I am currently feeding F/T, and I will likely continue to do so until I either need to breed my own mice, or have much more experience with my snake and feel comfortable taking the risk (which I feel is likely negligible if the snake has a strong feeding response). Part of the reason I would like to switch eventually is because I would enjoy watching my snake do what it does best. Why do so many people seem to think that make you sick/sadistic? I can't WAIT until my CWD can eat mice. He will be getting them live. I'd be willing to bet that a large portion of people that claim they do not "enjoy" watching their snake eating a live mouse are full of crap.

I realize that I will probably get some possibly angry responses to this post, but I am still going to post it, because I am just really tired of reading people basically saying that people should be ashamed because they enjoy watching their pet eat.

I enjoy watching my snake eat F/T too, even the first time i fed him and he didn't strike at it. When I fed him the other day and he struck, it was AWESOME! I loved it. I felt so good because he really wanted what I had for him. I feel good when all of my pets eat, I love to watch my frogs go after crickets, I love to watch my toads eat a worm/waxworm, and I absolutely LOVE hand feeding crickets to my CWD, and now, I love feeding my snake.

People are not bad because they derive enjoyment/entertainment from watching their animals eat. Is it wrong to watch a nature show on discovery channel where a lion is ripping a gazelle or whatever to shreds?

Oh, and one more thing, is it right to have to "fool" a snake into thinking what he is eating is alive?

Ok, now that I am done with my rant, I will answer the question. I was planning to feed my BP once a week, but he is very thin, so I am feeding every five days for now until he gets his weight back up.

Froggsong - There is a difference between enjoying watching a show where an animal is eaten on the discovery channel and watching your pet snake kill a live animal. The discovery channel show is a show where the animals are wild and are in the wild - at home the snake is not in the wild it is a pet, and although it is not domesticated like our cats and dogs it is still pet and is still in captivity.
I have no problem with feeding live, or with anyone enjoying seeing what snake does best (as long as they are respectful of the prey animal) - but you have to remember that there are a lot of people out there with twisted minds that don't enjoy watching a snake kill a live mouse/rat because thats what the snake would do in the wild - but they enjoy watching it because they think its funny or cool or they just enjoy watching something get killed - THAT is what is wrong

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Originally Posted by froggsong

Ok, first, I haven't read this entire thread yet, but I have to disagree with at least part of this post.

"I am impressed with my snakes and the fact that they are perfectly designed to dispatch their prey - but if entertainment value is the reason to choose to feed live, the keeper might want to re-think their reason for having a snake."

What is so wrong with enjoying watching a snake kill it's prey? Shouldn't feeding be a large point of consideration before ever purchasing a snake? I am currently feeding F/T, and I will likely continue to do so until I either need to breed my own mice, or have much more experience with my snake and feel comfortable taking the risk (which I feel is likely negligible if the snake has a strong feeding response). Part of the reason I would like to switch eventually is because I would enjoy watching my snake do what it does best. Why do so many people seem to think that make you sick/sadistic? I can't WAIT until my CWD can eat mice. He will be getting them live. I'd be willing to bet that a large portion of people that claim they do not "enjoy" watching their snake eating a live mouse are full of crap.

I realize that I will probably get some possibly angry responses to this post, but I am still going to post it, because I am just really tired of reading people basically saying that people should be ashamed because they enjoy watching their pet eat.

I enjoy watching my snake eat F/T too, even the first time i fed him and he didn't strike at it. When I fed him the other day and he struck, it was AWESOME! I loved it. I felt so good because he really wanted what I had for him. I feel good when all of my pets eat, I love to watch my frogs go after crickets, I love to watch my toads eat a worm/waxworm, and I absolutely LOVE hand feeding crickets to my CWD, and now, I love feeding my snake.

People are not bad because they derive enjoyment/entertainment from watching their animals eat. Is it wrong to watch a nature show on discovery channel where a lion is ripping a gazelle or whatever to shreds?

Oh, and one more thing, is it right to have to "fool" a snake into thinking what he is eating is alive?

Ok, now that I am done with my rant, I will answer the question. I was planning to feed my BP once a week, but he is very thin, so I am feeding every five days for now until he gets his weight back up.

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Meghan, you took my post completely out of context. If someone's ONLY reason to switch from F/T to live is for their OWN entertainment, not the well being of their snake, to show off their snake to their buddies and laugh and punch arms and high five each other because it's so cool - then no - I do not agree with that type of entertainment.

I never said I don't get pleasure for watching my perfectly designed, healthy animals doing what they do best. It's a wonderful sense of satisfaction to watch my snakes eat and grow. It's not entertainment though. It is fascination that they are such amazing creatures, perfectly designed to do what they do. It's pride that my babies are growing and thriving.

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Originally Posted by edie

but you have to remember that there are a lot of people out there with twisted minds that don't enjoy watching a snake kill a live mouse/rat because thats what the snake would do in the wild - but they enjoy watching it because they think its funny or cool or they just enjoy watching something get killed - THAT is what is wrong

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That is EXACTLY what I was referring to as "entertainment". Thank you!

Again - I'm a live feeder, I've never fed f/t to any of my snakes, ever. But I don't encourage anyone to switch only for the entertainment value of it.

Does that make more sense?

I wasn't reffering to your post specifically, but in a general way.. I don't know, it is hard to explain... I have just heard the same type of statement so many times, I just don't get why people have such a problem with someone enjoying watching their pets feed. I think I understand what you mean though, that it is wrong for it to be entertaining just because something is dying (did I understand that correctly this time?). While I would not derive any type of pleasure from killing a mouse myself, watching a snake or lizard eat one would be entertaining to me. Not because the mouse is dying, but because I get to watch the animal in action. It is hard to explain, I guess. I will admit, I walk up to the mouse cages at the pet store and ask them if they want to be a nice tasty dinner, which I find amusing, but only because I own animals that will eat them. If I were buying one for a pet, rather than a feeder/breeder, it would be a different situation all together. Another example would be the guppies that I breed for feeders, I derive great enjoyment from watching my dragon eat a fish, but I would not feed him my other fish that are pets, just the female common guppies (the males are too pretty to use as feeders, lol) that I breed as feeders. I don't enjoy it because it is death to the fish, but because I love to watch him eat them (when one dies naturaly, it gets a little funeral in front of the toilet). I think alot of times that people that say they love to watch their herp eat live prey are misunderstood. I just don't feel like people should have to feel like they need to pretend they don't enjoy it, and I don't feel like people should have to explain why they enjoy it either (I'm not saying that anyone said I had to explain). Anyway, I've already had to put one foot in my mouth, so I guess I'll hush for now, since they wont both fit at once...

I get where you're coming from Meghan :)

There's nothing wrong with enjoying watching the awesomeness of our animals doing what nature designed them for.

My problem is with people who have expressed a desire to switch to live because it's meant to be a weekly show to be cool with their buddies and laugh at the mouse being killed. THAT'S not a good reason to switch, and that's where my framing was coming from! ;)

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Originally Posted by Jenn

I'm going to have to agree with Robin. I feed live, but not for MY entertainment. In fact, once I'm sure everything's OK, I shut the lights off and let my snakes eat in privacy.

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i tend to agree with you on this point. my female wont eat unless i leave the room lol. She will literally constrict , and then stare at me until i leave, even if im across the room !!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I get where you're coming from Meghan :)

There's nothing wrong with enjoying watching the awesomeness of our animals doing what nature designed them for.

My problem is with people who have expressed a desire to switch to live because it's meant to be a weekly show to be cool with their buddies and laugh at the mouse being killed. THAT'S not a good reason to switch, and that's where my framing was coming from! ;)

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Gotcha! I totally get what you were saying now. Switching just so you can watch the snake kill the mouse would be wrong, IMO too.

Boots eats on Wednesdays and Sundays. She is thin and I just switched her to medium mice last Sunday, and now looks great, filled out. So I was definitely underfeeding with the fuzzies. It's hard to judge with the girth.

As for enjoying watching her eat, I enjoy it every time. She eats f/t mice. I don't know why, ever since I was a little girl I was entranced by snakes. My parents always took me to the Audubon Zoo (in New Orleans where I'm from) and they had an awesome Reptile House. This was my favorite part of the zoo - partially because it was a respite from the summer heat and humidity (typically 95 deg/80-90%), but also because I loved snakes. They had to almost drag me away - I could have spent hours just staring at the snakes in their enclosures. I never got to see them feed, though, and always wanted to. Only on nature shows on TV.

So from the first time I saw a snake feed live, which was in the pet store before I brought Boots home, it just fascinates me. It is so alien to us as humans - so different from the way we approach, chew, swallow and digest. It almost looks like it hurts, but I know it most likely doesn't since they are built to handle it. And it is an awesome feeling of completion after she swallows and the tongue starts flicking again, and I'm happy because I made my snakie happy!

So my enjoyment comes not from the rodent, but from her. If she only ate live, I would feed live, since she is thin and they can be so picky. She is also only a couple months old. Hopefully she won't turn shy while eating and I can enjoy watching her eat for a looooong time!

Once a week for the BPs b/c they are all still young...probably go to 10 days when they get bigger....2-3 weeks for the 6.5 ft Argentine and whenever I can get my mature Kenyan to eat I am happy....He like to fast a lot..I think he may be anorexic :)

I feed mine once a week. I prefer feeding every five days, but I work in pet stores on the weekends, so its easier for me to just pick up my food every sunday.
I feed live to my BP, but last week switched my corn snake to f/t because it saves me a trip to the reptile store each week for live. I prefer feeding live, and as long as my BP is eating it fine, I'm going to stick to it for awhile. I might switch to pre-killed once she's on rats, though. Still undecided on that one.

Not sure if i responded to this thread, i know i voted, but im too lazy to really check. :)

I feed every other week. Im of a personal opinion that snakes are fed way too often as is. And ive seen photos of Necropsied * word?* snakes that, in my mind absolutely prove this thought. Even on a conservative diet, ive seen a cobra * who has a faster metabolism than a ball python* have excess amounts of fat. I have friends who Had lost a snake due to fatty liver disease, and have read others who have lost them due to the disease as well.

I also feed live. it easier. Less work, and all of the snakes take it. I see no reason to change. I dont do it because "the snakes like it" nor do i do it for my own enjoyment. its just what works, and thats how i feel i should feed.
I also feed F/T when i have it, and Prekilled if someone wont eat live, where then i will place it in the tub overnight, and see if they eat. if not, i toss the dead rat and make them wait till the next feeding time.

I am switching to weekly feedings. She is ALL OVER her tank tonight and I can only imagine she is hunting. I got her out and it was like the night I got her (3 wks. ago) - she was very mobile, checking every small little hidey hole, you can tell she is looking for something to eat. It is very easy to read. So she gets one tomorrow after tank duty and then a quiet weekend in her hide.

I feed live. I enjoy watching, but I hate the killing, if that makes sense. I hate marking one of the little guys at the pet shop for death, but I love my snake more than my remorse. I've read on here (you all are a great resource) that they are shy about it and are picky eaters sometimes. Not my Dasia - the whole family has watched each of the times we've fed her.

I have concerns for both the heath of the rats from the pet store and the last one kicked a little and I was worried about scratches. I live in a small town and have, at present, no alternative. Dasia is quick, efficient, and aggressive so I think she can handle things.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Can you point me to a study that says that live is healthier and more exciting for the snake than f/t? The fact that there are thousands of animals feed f/t that are thriving in collections around the world is proof enough that f/t is no less healthy than feeding live.

I am impressed with my snakes and the fact that they are perfectly designed to dispatch their prey - but if entertainment value is the reason to choose to feed live, the keeper might want to re-think their reason for having a snake.

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I agree 100%!

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Originally Posted by Jenn

I'm going to have to agree with Robin. I feed live, but not for MY entertainment. In fact, once I'm sure everything's OK, I shut the lights off and let my snakes eat in privacy.

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Yeah, I do the same. I didn't choose live prey for my ball, when I bought him, he was used to feed that way. I feel sorry for the poor mice, but that would be the same in the wild. But I don't see that as entertainment, it's just the way they feed.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Can you point me to a study that says that live is healthier and more exciting for the snake than f/t? The fact that there are thousands of animals feed f/t that are thriving in collections around the world is proof enough that f/t is no less healthy than feeding live.

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Additionally, quite the opposite is true regarding live prey being healthier than f/t. Freezing prey kills off most, if not all, parasites and other organisms that may be harmful to your snake. Therefore, feeding f/t is more likely healthier than feeding live.

I feed mine every 14 days because they get a large prey item. They're fine like that, they still grow well etc. Advantages are much less poo, and cheaper!

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Originally Posted by Morph Addict

Hate to burst your bubble, but if it has more nutritional value, its better for your snake right? Nutritionally to say the least :D

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I haven't read the entire thread, however, I wanted to point something out here. Vitamin stuffed rats would have more nutritional value, but does that make it better for your snake? No. What about the vitamins that build up in the system and can actually lead to poisoning? Vitamin A can be poison in too large amounts, along with numerous other non-water soluable vitamins, and can cause problems, including shut-down of the kidneys.

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Originally Posted by 51-50 Python

for that size.. i would recommend 1 mouse a week.. n when it gets bigger like 2 feet long.. start giving it small rats once a week... but dont ever give it something u think it cant handle because i made that mistake once by giving my ball a huge rat.. and i would also recommend giving ur ball live mice instead of frozen.. i dont know why poeple even give it frozen food at all i guess some people are scared the mouse or rat will damage the snake but ive never had that problem and ive had my ball for 5 months

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I purchased an adult female YB from a big name breeder a couple of weeks ago that is blind in one eye from when a live rat feeder scratched it. All the BPs I have that used to feed live have some sort of scar on their bodies from rodent attacks. I feed all of mine only F/T (I will feed live if necessary, though). You can feed either live, P/K, or F/T. It is a matter of preference. If you feed live, you have to monitor the rodent, if you feed P/K, you either have to kill it yourself, or have the pet store do it for you. If you feed it F/T, it takes a lot of patience to get them converted.

There is nothing being taken away from the snake's wild nature by feeding dead prey. In the wild, the snake has plenty of room to move around-and away. In captivity it does not. Again, it is a matter of preference.

My baby Calypso will get fed every 5 days and my big boy Ki gets fed weekly

I only feed live to my snakes that absolutely refuse everything else--and I stun any older rodents that get fed. Yes, they most certainly can and will damage the snakes. My live-eaters already have a few minor scars because they just don't grab the rodent right each time. (The albinos are particularly bad about it, and I have to balance offering them unconscious prey--which the female wants to turn her nose up at, since it doesn't move--and getting the betadine ready if the rodent isn't out of it enough, and bites).
There just isn't time to get forceps in there to intervene if the snake wraps the rodent with the rodent's mouth against its body. (I keep trying, but those two just won't take prekilled--or even live off of forceps, and it's been a year).

Any nutritional argument you could make about f/t can be solved by feeding pre-killed, or stuffing a bit of brewer's yeast into the ft rodent.

I am not entertained by feeding live to the snakes that won't eat dead prey--I am generally anxious. I don't want them to get hurt.

A baby BP should be fed every 5-7 days, for as long as they will accept it that often, the first 2 years of a snake's life determines their size later in life. I have heard of people feeding 2 times a week, not power feeding, but a "heavy" feeding, because supposebly BPs metabolisms are higher as babies, and therefore can eat more often, and grow more quickly. I would suggest trying to switch to rat pups or extremely small rats, as they are more nutritious for the snake. I also would never, ever feed a snake live, there are some horrible incidents that have happened. I realize this is from another forum, but check it out, maybe it'll change some peoples' minds. http://www.redtailboas.com/forum/sho...ight=feed+live
RodentPro.com

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Can you point me to a study that says that live is healthier and more exciting for the snake than f/t? The fact that there are thousands of animals feed f/t that are thriving in collections around the world is proof enough that f/t is no less healthy than feeding live.

I am impressed with my snakes and the fact that they are perfectly designed to dispatch their prey - but if entertainment value is the reason to choose to feed live, the keeper might want to re-think their reason for having a snake.

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not trying to be rude... but freezing DOES make them lose some nutritional value, not much but it does. for one, it gets rid of at least one or two vitimins that are important to a snake (i forget which ones). i mean its not a BIG difference but i would personaly rather feed live. they do it in the wild and i think they should do it in captivity. after all it's pretty much the one natural that they have left when they're trapped in a cage all day.

not saying it cant be bad for the snake (getting bit and stuff) but i sit and wait till they grab it before i leave the room. although alot of you guys have way to many snakes to be able to do that, so i understand, lol.

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Originally Posted by bimmer

not trying to be rude... but freezing DOES make them lose some nutritional value, not much but it does. for one, it gets rid of at least one or two vitimins that are important to a snake (i forget which ones). i mean its not a BIG difference but i would personaly rather feed live. they do it in the wild and i think they should do it in captivity. after all it's pretty much the one natural that they have left when they're trapped in a cage all day.

not saying it cant be bad for the snake (getting bit and stuff) but i sit and wait till they grab it before i leave the room. although alot of you guys have way to many snakes to be able to do that, so i understand, lol.

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There haven't been any studies done on the nutritional requirements of ball pythons, so even if freezing causes loss of some nutritional value, who knows if it's nutritional value that the snake requires.

All that said, I feed live, I've never fed f/t or pre-killed. I don't stun the prey, and I've fed off over 4000 live prey items without incidence or injury to any of my animals. I have over 40 ball pythons, all who feed live from hatchlings to adults.

I still stand by my opinion that feeding live purely for the entertainment value is the wrong reason to feed live.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I only feed live to my snakes that absolutely refuse everything else--and I stun any older rodents that get fed. Yes, they most certainly can and will damage the snakes. My live-eaters already have a few minor scars because they just don't grab the rodent right each time. (The albinos are particularly bad about it, and I have to balance offering them unconscious prey--which the female wants to turn her nose up at, since it doesn't move--and getting the betadine ready if the rodent isn't out of it enough, and bites).
There just isn't time to get forceps in there to intervene if the snake wraps the rodent with the rodent's mouth against its body. (I keep trying, but those two just won't take prekilled--or even live off of forceps, and it's been a year).

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Have you ever just tried offering non-stunned animals, not on the forceps to your snakes?

I would imagine a stunned animal that's coming out of the fog would be far more angry and likely to bite than one that's not. Especially one that finds itself on the end of forceps.

I wouldn't know from personal experience, since I don't stun and only feed live. But I also don't have a problem with injuries to my collection. I've been feeding live prey for over three years to my collection, and none of them are scarred.

I feed Cali a live adult mouse every 5 days. The place I got her from had her on live Hoppers once every 7 days. She wasnt really thin but I noticed about the 5th or 6th day she was searching for another meal. I upped the size to small adult mice, but she was still searching 5 or 6 days later. Once I hit full Adult the searching stopped, and she does not refuse on the 5th day. So I take that as a sign that she is well feed and happy.

I've had her a little over 3 months now, and got her to take a F/T only once. She didn't constrict. I offered another F/T 5 days later and she wanted nothing to do with it. so 2 days after that I dropped in yet another live adult mouse and she struck, squeezed, and swallowed within 10 mins.

I only decided to try F/T for the fact that her last live meal before the F/T attempt, was on a thin line of going bad. She struck at its rear and had the mouse head exposed as it was being squeezed. I watched very closely to make sure she wasnt going to get bit. It scared me to think that she could have been bitten, so I decided to try F/T for the next feeding. (which was 5 days later.)

She is back to Live due to her refusing F/T for the time being. Still debating if I want to keep attempting F/T. I guess the only way to tell is if I get another scare from another close call. (Which I hope and pray never happends again)

Oh man so many comments

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

The analogy was meant to show that to feed f/t becasue your snake might get injured while contricting live prey, would be like somebody serving you perchewed food your entire life through a straw out of the danger you might chip a tooth while chewing. You could argue whether you blend a burger or eat it in bites you will get all the same stuff... But think about the mental effect that years of not being able to exercise your natural feeding behavior would have on you, Even if you were raised like that from birth and you never chewed a bite in your life. Not to mention long term physical muscular effects.

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I strongly disagree with this entire line of thought. Humans once had to hunt and gather. Now we do not. Our health as individuals and as a species could be called in to question but there is no doubt that whether or not you hunt and gather is not an issue of health. Humans who maintain a healthy weight and eat frozen food are much healthier than people were 1000 years ago. There is a lot of evidence to back this up. Skeletal remains speak volumes. Comparing human emotional well being to a snakes is like comparing your snakes emotions to your scorpions and your scorpions to your pet rocks. Reptiles do not have the same brain structures as humans. I have no doubt they have emotions but they are alien as far as human comparison goes. Oh and you may be traumatized if I gave you nothing but insects to eat but children raised in other cultures would not. I have two cats who have never killed there meals and they are doing just fine. They are allowed to go outside and hunt if they choose. They like dry cat food.

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Some snakes take F/T in the same way they would take a live rat... With attack... contriction... ingestion...
IMO if your snakes stops contricting it is time to start taking steps to get them back into the habit. Because the fact is that you CAN break an animal of it's intinctual behaviors, especially in captive bred animals. All you have to do is provide an environment where they do not need to exercise those behaviors for an extended amount of time. Put a perfectly healthy person a machine that breathes for them for years... Then take them off of it... Chances are they have lost touch eith the area of the brain that automatically tells you to breathe.

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I completely agree with this line of thought. By your own admission F/T is fine as long as the snake is acting normally. My BP kills her dead mouse ever time I feed her. I ran out of the size mouse I normally feed her and decided to try feeding her two fuzzies that equal her normal meal size. She struck and constricted both. Sometimes I wonder why she constricts for so long.

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As far as the Vegetarian argument that is a whole different debate I will try not to get to far into. I will make just a couple points... The two pointy teeth in my mouth are obviously not there for chewing salad. While studying anthropolgy I learned that there was actually an early race of hominid dating back thousands of years that was entirely vegetarian... Wanna guess what happened??? They died off.

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I hesitate to touch this one but here it goes. Vegetarian diets failed in nature because you need a variety of veggies to cover basic dietary needs. I would not suggest trying this with things growing in the woods behind your house but I think Vegetarian diets are feasable in the modern world. On average people would benefit by eating about half as much meat as they do, and shifting the type of meat they eat from red meat to fish. People tend to eat from most to least red meat, fowl, fish when they should eat fish, fowl, red meat.

[quote]As far as nutrition goes... Everything I said above about the oxygenation level in the blood ... and the freshness of fluids in the tissue ... Those are all true. It is the same with the food we freeze for our own human consumption. With the features of the human body we can easily tell who is healthy and who maybe doesn't eat the best. Snakes are different. All we really look at to determine a snakes health is that it eats, that it sheds, and that it sh*ts. Does that mean that those are the only factors related to their health? A person fed junk food their entire life still eats, grows, and defecates... But that by no means does it say that the person is in good health. There is still a lot of research to be done as far as health and nutrition in snakes go, but to accept that you are doing everything right for your snake because it eats sheds and poops I think is falling short because a sickly or malnurished animal could do the same thing. [/qoute]

Ok again this analogy sucks. You are comparing live vs f/t rodents to balanced meals vs junk food. There is no evidence that a human is any less healthy if the food they eat is frozen while fresh and eaten in a reasonable period of time. Whether or not something is frozen is very very minor compared to what you eat.

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There was a great point in the article i found ( I will post a link bellow)... But it was along these lines. Take your newborn baby to the doctor and tell him that you are planning on raising your baby on frozen food alone and they will call child protective services on you. Maybe a baby could survive on a frozen food diet...but would obviously would not be as healthy as if they were allowed to eat fresh food and who knows what kind of long term effects would be suffered. I think it is obvious... Fresh food will always offer more benifit than something frozen for an extended amount of time.

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This is not true either. Take breast feeding for instance. Breast feeding is natural and healthy. It has many benefits over formula feeding your baby. There are many studies that point to negative affects if you fail to breast feed your child. If you tell a doctor you will be bottle feeding they will try to talk you into breast feeding then give you two cans of formula and send you home with your child. They will then encourage feeding mush after a while and then a balanced diet of meat and veggies most of which are frozen in the civilized world. The doctor will take your kid away only if neglect is smacking them in the face.

[quote]It is even different in this case cause in frozen human food we have preservatives and additives that help offset what gets lost in freezing... Frozen Thawed Rats get nothing! The point is made... That if nothing is lost in Freezing food... Then why do the frozen food companies go through the extensive time and effort required to add these preservatives to our frozen foods?[/qoute]

Thinking for one second that anything a food company does is at all related to your health is a joke. The answer to the question of why does a publicly traded company do anything is always, to make more money. They add additives and preservatives to our food so they can advertise higher nutrition content on the label and so the food will keep longer.

I think that much like being a parent of a human child, as long as you are responsible and educated you are going to do just fine. Feeding F/T is a complex statement that can be good or bad. Are you getting healthy rodents frozen quickly shortly after being killed or sickly creatures killed and frozen hours later allowed to thaw and be refrozen multiple times before they get to you. Feeding live is much the same. Animals in the wild are not always better off. Humans are a great case in point. I am much happier in my heated home with climate control and frozen pizza and steaks and veggies in the fridge than I would be trying to survive the wilds of Northern New York. Cats are another great example. They are not truly domesticated like dogs are. They are just happy to share territory with a human or two. If you are serious about creating an environment like a ball python would have in the wild then expose it to an eagle or other predator every now and again. Should be good for its health and well being after all.

No offense intended to anyone, I too just like a spirited debate.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Have you ever just tried offering non-stunned animals, not on the forceps to your snakes?

I would imagine a stunned animal that's coming out of the fog would be far more angry and likely to bite than one that's not. Especially one that finds itself on the end of forceps.

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I don't offer them on forceps, stunned, as the snakes won't accept them that way. I put them in the cage still kicking. I only have a few snakes that are THIS picky. (Both of my albinos). Offer them a live, conscious rodent, and they get bitten virtually every time. I'm glad your snakes are more competent than mine, but that's not the point. lol
As these snakes are a year old now, feeding them only toothless baby rodents doesn't work either.

The primary point is, live rodents CAN HURT SNAKES. And they do. And NOT infrequently. Even a really great hunter can hit a rodent wrong and wind up with a bite.
These aren't wild animals, they are our pets. They don't get bored. They are snakes. They are happy hiding in a hole all day, and most of the night. They come out for food and water.

If you told your doctor you were going to feed your kids only frozen foods, he would shrug and tell you to be sure that they got plenty of veggies. He'd probably mention that green leafy vegetables are healthy, but then, there's always collard greens and spinich available frozen. Tests show that frozen vegetables don't have less nutritional value than fresh supermarket produce. Half the meat we buy thawed was shipped frozen anyhow.

The only nutrient of concern that you may want to supplement when you feed strictly f/t is available in brewer's yeast. There are no nutritional concerns at all with pre-killed.

I have only a couple of snakes that will take f/t prey off of the cage floor--the rest eat it off of tongs, and constrict it first. One of the ones that eats off the cage floor constricts, too. Only one of my ball pythons will simply eat an f/t rodent without constricting it.
(One of my big females did take an f/t rodent off tongs and just eat it...but she took the second one I offered particularly violently, lol).

Comparing live with pre-killed is no contest--pre-killed has exactly the same nutritional value with none of the danger. If the snake doesn't care that it's not alive, you certainly shouldn't. They have no NEED to kill their food.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

The only nutrient of concern that you may want to supplement when you feed strictly f/t is available in brewer's yeast.

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Where does this come from? Never heard this before... :confused:

FT rodents are just as complete of a nutritional source for snakes as live or "whacked" prey (not humane).

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Where does this come from? Never heard this before... :confused:

FT rodents are just as complete of a nutritional source for snakes as live or "whacked" prey (not humane).

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Freezing increases level of thiaminase in foods, thus reducing the thiamine levels over fresh rodents. So supplementing B-1 would be a logical choice. Brewer's yeast is a good source of B vitamins.

http://animal.ifas.ufl.edu/courses/ans6449/Thiamin.htm
(Note the loss of Thiamine in frozen meats over time)

http://books.google.com/books?id=6ry...um=1&ct=result

Can you feed f/t rodents without supplementing thiamine and have healthy snakes? Sure. But since Thiamine does affect fertility and nervous system function, and IS reduced over time in storage in frozen meat, why NOT supplement it, just to be sure?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Freezing increases level of thiaminase in foods, thus reducing the thiamine levels over fresh rodents. So supplementing B-1 would be a logical choice. Brewer's yeast is a good source of B vitamins.

http://animal.ifas.ufl.edu/courses/ans6449/Thiamin.htm
(Note the loss of Thiamine in frozen meats over time)

http://books.google.com/books?id=6ry...um=1&ct=result

Can you feed f/t rodents without supplementing thiamine and have healthy snakes? Sure. But since Thiamine does affect fertility and nervous system function, and IS reduced over time in storage in frozen meat, why NOT supplement it, just to be sure?

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For a long time (probably until I hit about 30 snakes) I fed FT exclusively. I have noticed NO difference in the health of my snakes between then and now. I now have close to 100 and feed a mix of FT and still notice NO difference. How do you know what a health amount of B vitamin for a snake is? Do you want to tell everyone how much brewer's yeast they should sprinkle on the thawed prey item to be beneficial without being too much and contributing to some of the negative side effects of too much vitamin B?

....about 10 mins ago:rofl:

Normally I don't respond to threads that have been on the Forum longer than I have, but I couldn't pass this one up.

I feed Lilith (8 yr CB female normal) when she starts to look for food.. this is normally every 3 weeks or so but it can be as long as 6 to 8 weeks.. She once went 6 months without feeding and that was with me offering food every couple of weeks at first and then less often..... I generally feed 2 or 3 prey items over a couple of days - Saturday she had 2 medium gerbils and then on Sun as she was still displaying hunting behaviour I defrosted her a smallish rat. She ate all with relish and is now happily digesting. If she'd been hungry again today I'd have given her another gerbil. By feeding her when she appears hungry I don't get any refused food. When I tried feeding her every week or every fortnight I wasted a lot if rodents...). I have tried getting her into a routine of feeding every 2 weeks or whatever but she won't eat unless she wants to so I let myslef be guided by her...

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Can you point me to a study that says that live is healthier and more exciting for the snake than f/t? The fact that there are thousands of animals feed f/t that are thriving in collections around the world is proof enough that f/t is no less healthy than feeding live.

I am impressed with my snakes and the fact that they are perfectly designed to dispatch their prey - but if entertainment value is the reason to choose to feed live, the keeper might want to re-think their reason for having a snake.

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it is really just up to the owner and snake what is a better choice but i personally feed mine live mice the reason for that is because one, thats how it is supposed to be there are no f/t mice in the wild. and two if you freeze the mouse then thaw it out it kills the thiamin and all important B vitamin. so i would suggest feefing live mice unless you can supplement your snake with the vitamins that are lost in the f/t prosess.

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Some snakes take F/T in the same way they would take a live rat... With attack... Contriction... Ingestion...
IMO if your snakes stops contricting it is time to start taking steps to get them back into the habit. Because the fact is that you CAN break an animal of it's intinctual behaviors, especially in captive bred animals. All you have to do is provide an environment where they do not need to exercise those behaviors for an extended amount of time. Put a perfectly healthy person a machine that breathes for them for years... Then take them off of it... Chances are they have lost touch eith the area of the brain that automatically tells you to breathe.


This line of thought is why i wanted to feed live. I wanted to keep the snake hunting the way nature intended her to. Im not sure if it makes her any less healthy or anything if she wasn't taking food the way nature intented. But i just wanted her to keep her natural hunting methods. I would have liked to feed F/T as it is a lot easier to stockpile F/T as well as being easier to feed( not much of a need to oversee the feeding if the mouse/rat isn't alive. Due to how picky BP's can sometimes be i just stuck with what the breeder started her on so i had the highest chance to not throw her off feed. It has been working for about 4 years now and i had only 2 mice even be able to get a bite off, neither of which even broke through the scales. I do see how its possible to be more dangerous for the snake to feed live but that part of it falls on the owners responcibility to watch the feeding closly.

As for my feeding schedule, i feed my BP 4-5 adult mice every 7-10 days depending on her. Sometimes she will eat all of them in on sitting, sometimes she will take 3 and then ill offer the last mouse the next day and she takes it no prob. I was wondering if i should be feeding my snake more mice per feeding time actually. She dont' look at all unhealthy i was just wondering when i should up the amount of mice im offering.

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Originally Posted by 51-50 Python

for that size.. i would recommend 1 mouse a week.. n when it gets bigger like 2 feet long.. start giving it small rats once a week... but dont ever give it something u think it cant handle because i made that mistake once by giving my ball a huge rat.. and i would also recommend giving ur ball live mice instead of frozen.. i dont know why poeple even give it frozen food at all i guess some people are scared the mouse or rat will damage the snake but ive never had that problem and ive had my ball for 5 months

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I was feeding live and had one bite my snake after he struck and constricted. Since then I feed Fresh Killed or Frozen Thawed.

All it will take is once for one of your snakes to get bit and then....no more chances.

Just my 2 cents.