can a python tell whos its owner is?

I always try to think of snakes as very simple minded creatures, working with some very old, steadfast and hardwired brains. Their first need is to survive. Whether that be through hiding, fleeing, fighting, mating... they all have the very basic need to survive.

I believe they work on some very basic instincts, and can learn easy simple patterns if repeated often enough and in an environment that makes them feel secure.

If your snake recognizes you as the warm object that does not drop him, then kudos! That's all he thinks when he smells or feels you. Your the big thing that bothers him everyday while he's trying to sleep. You have been holding him and teaching him to tolerate being held by you. He feels safe enough that you wont eat him. Good job.

When you put him back in his cage after holding him, he will either go to the place he knows as home, or he will try to flee in distress. Or as some call it "Come back out to play with me".

We make it our mission to direct our snakes back into the dark hide inside their tub. We show them the dark entrance, and they usually make a run (or slither) for the hide. The only dang one who refuses this is the boa. He is neither secure with us, nor wants to be held. We are still working with him. lol.

I also believe that some snakes are more skiddish than others and can be worked with everyday, but deep down their hard wiring wins out. Wild animals aren't supposed to be comfortable with us to ensure their species survival, some don't ever get over that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I always try to think of snakes as very simple minded creatures, working with some very old, steadfast and hardwired brains. Their first need is to survive. Whether that be through hiding, fleeing, fighting, mating... they all have the very basic need to survive.

---

For the most part I do agree with much of what you've said. The only thing that I take minor issue with is how you word your statements as solid and undeniable fact. If they were either, than this poll (or debate in general across the herp world) would not exist. I believe that a lot of this discussion boils down to personal observation and the conclusions we've reached. Other people, however, have also observed their animals and reached different conclusions. While I may not agree with all of them, I can't tell them they are 'wrong' without being able to provide some empirical evidence beyond my own beliefs and observations.

The poll question was simply, "can a python tell who its owner is." Your answers would seem to indicate a 'yes', although contain a distinct disclaimer against the possibility of love or long-term memory. That's fine. As I said, for the most part I do agree.

Yet I can't shake the thought that perhaps some people really do have snakes that are 'smarter' (able to retain long term memory) than others. My parents have 2 dogs (same breed), and it may not be nice to say, but it is clear that one of them is vastly more intelligent than the other. If we were to judge all dogs by the 'dumb' one, it would do a disservice to the species. Hopefully one day the research will be done to fully probe the learning/memory capabilities of these animals.

I do respect that you are helping shed some 'reality' on much of snake-ownership. I think it is often too easy to romanticize a hobby that we love. This can often lead to unpleasant situations, mostly for the snake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NightLad

Yet I can't shake the thought that perhaps some people really do have snakes that are 'smarter' (able to retain long term memory) than others. My parents have 2 dogs (same breed), and it may not be nice to say, but it is clear that one of them is vastly more intelligent than the other. If we were to judge all dogs by the 'dumb' one, it would do a disservice to the species. Hopefully one day the research will be done to fully probe the learning/memory capabilities of these animals.

---

I think that is entirely true, and had I been asked about it, I would have expanded my theory. I think mammalians, avian and other species are quite capable of higher thought processes that respectively show their intelligence.

I also believe that some species of snake and reptiles are more adept at learning than others. Ball pythons not excluded from this list either.

I also believe that a BP's or any snakes hard wiring often plays a huge hand in how they express their intelligence. Ball pythons as we all know are very secretive by nature. I think this need to be safe and in hiding constantly hinders the way they show intelligence.

Since snakes don't speak, wag their tales, cuddle, chase after us in the fashion of more common pets, we have to interpret their simple body language, behaviors and habits to determine the "intelligence" of each snake.

As always, all of my answers have given a yes, but with a very long addendum attached. I do not think they recognize us as owners, or someone that they need to survive. I think they can recognize us on our respective scents, actions, and "vibes", but perhaps not fully understand that we are separate beings from everyone else. I like to think of it in more of terms like: snake is secure with this and insecure with that.

Well, now were just going into a lot of speculation and philosophical stuff... so I should just stop before I start confusing everyone.

Lets just say, I have a very simple, basic view of snakes intelligence and ability to reason that relies heavily on instinct and less on learning.

Here Here. Alot of people think that snakes are downright stupid and feeling less because of their small brain size. But in all fairness to the snakes, there is not alot of space taken up, like for us and other mammals and even a few retiles, by movement. I'm not saying snakes are the smartest creatures, I'm saying there is definately something going on in there wether it is "Gotta Get to that hole" or "I feel safe" which just proves that, in the facts of instincts and such, there has to be at least a happy, angry, and scared feeling programmed and hard wired into their brains. And chances of having long term memory is slim, but once again there is that almost isntinct part about it. Like when you smell something and you can't quite remember what it is but the smell makes you feel happy and safe or sad and scared. Which yet again, in my opinion, up holds my opinion of yes, a ball python can tell who it's owner is.

i selected yes as i have witnessed this sort of behaviour in retics

I think they can recognize their owners because mine likes me but doesn't like my mom. lol

I've always thought it a bit funny, or perhaps persumptious, that we humans judge intelligence in other creatures by our own human yardstick.

Our brains are bigger than a snake because we required through our evolution as humans, the ability to build social networks and so forth in order to survive. We are afterall one of the physically weakest, least able to survive unaided creatures ever created on this planet of ours. Most animals born captive or domesticated can still adjust quickly to a wild life if they must. We humans - not so much.

For me, I don't judge the snakes on my human experience. I don't care or wonder if they "love" me. That I have the ability to love them enough to care for them, worry over them, plan their lives and do what it takes to ensure their continued health - that's enough for me and likely a pretty decent deal for them. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frankykeno

I've always thought it a bit funny, or perhaps persumptious, that we humans judge intelligence in other creatures by our own human yardstick.

---

Well said :gj:

I don't even want to get involved in this debate because Ive spoken my mind before. This is a never ending argument and I don't think my two cents thrown into the pile will result in a conclusion. BUT, I would like to comment on something Connie had said:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

If your snake recognizes you as the warm object that does not drop him, then kudos! That's all he thinks when he smells or feels you. You're the big thing that bothers him everyday while he's trying to sleep. You have been holding him and teaching him to tolerate being held by you. He feels safe enough that you wont eat him. Good job.

When you put him back in his cage after holding him, he will either go to the place he knows as home, or he will try to flee in distress. Or as some call it "Come back out to play with me".

---

It seems to me that you feel very strongly about your views on the matter, and so you're presenting them as fact. I respect your views, and happen to agree with some of them. I also understand that we all have a tendency to blur the line between opinion and fact from time to time. But in this instance I wanted to speak up about it. The examples that you've given there are completely dependent on each individual snake and handler. When you say, "If your snake recognizes you as the warm object that does not drop him, then kudos! That's all he thinks when he smells or feels you." Well, you don't KNOW that's what he's thinking do you? This whole debate got started because NO ONE knows what the snakes are thinking. Also, you said, "You're the big thing that bothers him everyday while he's trying to sleep." And this varies by handler. Personally, I rarely pick up my snake when she's sleeping. If I need to clean or whatever, ok - that warrants bothering her. But otherwise, I wait until I see her out and about to handle her. It's unfair to assume that EVERYONE is always "bothering" their snakes. And one last thing: "When you put him back in his cage after holding him, he will either go to the place he knows as home, or he will try to flee in distress." Again, this will vary by each individual animal. My snake rarely returns to her hide after a handling session. She'll usually cruise about the tub for a little while (probably checking to make sure I didn't change my mind and decide to drop in a mouse). She doesn't "flee in distress" and she doesn't go back in her hide.

You even state here that it varies from snake to snake:

Quote:

---

I also believe that some snakes are more skittish than others and can be worked with everyday, but deep down their hard wiring wins out. Wild animals aren't supposed to be comfortable with us to ensure their species survival, some don't ever get over that.

---

So I don't really think it's fair for you to push your views on others as hard facts. State them as your opinion only. We all have different opinions on the subject and we're all entitled to voice them. But we should try to keep an open mind. At least, that's how I feel about it.

Edit: I wanted to add that I think the number of animals a handler has in their collection can make a difference as well. For instance, Connie (I'm sorry Connie. I don't mean to pick on you, it's just that your name is in my head now.) has quite a few animals in her collection and she doesn't feel that they can recognize their owner or feel "loyalty" towards that person. I, on the other hand, only have the two animals in my collection. Naturally, I am able to spend more time with each and I *do* feel that they are capable of recognizing their owner. Maybe this is because I have spent more time with my animals so they "know" me better, whereas Connie has spent less time with her animals so they haven't gotten to "know" her as well.

This is just an example, and only a hypothesis. For all I know, Connie has tea and crumpets with each and every one of her reptiles every afternoon. -lol- I hope I made myself clear. I must have edited this three times, just trying to rephrase things so that they made more sense. It's late and I've done the best I can do. I'm done now. :P

so what happens when a large constrictor kills its owner? Did it not all of a sudden recognize it's owner? i mean really...what in the world would YOU say to a person's family members who was a victim of this?

"Sorry about your loss, Randy the Retic must not have recognized XXXX."

To everyone who thinks their snakes knows them, loves them, misses them when they are gone, etc...please, please do not keep large constrictors that have the potential to kill you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mindibun

It seems to me that you feel very strongly about your views on the matter, and so you're presenting them as fact. I respect your views, and happen to agree with some of them. I also understand that we all have a tendency to blur the line between opinion and fact from time to time. But in this instance I wanted to speak up about it. The examples that you've given there are completely dependent on each individual snake and handler. When you say, "If your snake recognizes you as the warm object that does not drop him, then kudos! That's all he thinks when he smells or feels you." Well, you don't KNOW that's what he's thinking do you? This whole debate got started because NO ONE knows what the snakes are thinking.

---

I know I'm a PITA and I do blur the line. It's difficult on this and many subjects.

When it comes to this topic, when we start to question whether or not our snakes really feel something for us, I have to go back to their physical anatomy. Can they feel any sort of emotion? I would say not. Others say, "How do you really know?" Well, it's true I don't talk to my snakes.

We can compare the two like evolution and religion. Evolution is still only a theory. A theory that is taught as a fact in most of the world. How can I as a Christian contend against it? Well... all I can really say is "Were you there? Then you don't actually KNOW."

Now I know how silly of an argument that is against all of these facts and findings that support the theory of evolution, so what am I really left with? Faith. This faith that many just don't understand.

Now leading back to your rebuttals that I don't actually know what my snakes are really thinking or feeling. I can take a pretty educated guess based on behaviors and anatomy and come to a neat conclusion that no, my snakes don't "feel" anything for me; but truly I have never spoken to them.

I've said it before in this very thread, I think they can tell the difference between 2 different people, and may prefer one over the other based on past experiences and associations, but not because they like you as a person, but because I believe they prefer you as a handler based off the trust you've built and the associations that come with it. (if it matters at all, I did vote yes to the initial poll question.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

We can compare the two like evolution and religion. Evolution is still only a theory. A theory that is taught as a fact in most of the world. How can I as a Christian contend against it? Well... all I can really say is "Were you there? Then you don't actually KNOW."

---

You're thinking of the 'layman's' meaning for theory, which is more like a hypothesis. (Basically a 'guess' before you do the proper testing and such)

A scientific theory is 'an explanation for a set of established facts'.

So, we know, without a doubt, that species change from generation to generation, often diverging into new and different species given enough time and other factors.

The theory of evolution is trying to find out the 'how and why'. The current accepted theory is natural selection. But there have been old theories in the past that have since been disproven. (Like Lamarkism... He thought that, say, if an animal stretched its neck a lot, it would have babies with longer necks! Of course, now we know that's just silly.)

Sorry for the derail. It just irks me to see people parroting incorrect information.


So... it may be a fact that a snake will react a certain way to one person all the time, and a certain way to another person all the time. As for how they know, or why they know, or what it 'means' to them... We can only speculate. All we can say for sure is they can tell the difference and react differently.

So my answer to the poll is yes, snakes, and other lizards, do show the ability to distinguish between different human beings and react accordingly. We're just parts of their environment after all. It's no different than a snake differentiating between types of prey or a potential predator.

(If you have a snake that will eat rats but not mice, you can say the snake knows the difference between a rat and a mouse, yes? So in turn if your snake bites you but not other people, couldn't you say that your snake knows the difference between you and other people?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ivyna J Spyder

You're thinking of the 'layman's' meaning for theory, which is more like a hypothesis. (Basically a 'guess' before you do the proper testing and such)

A scientific theory is 'an explanation for a set of established facts'.

So, we know, without a doubt, that species change from generation to generation, often diverging into new and different species given enough time and other factors.

The theory of evolution is trying to find out the 'how and why'. The current accepted theory is natural selection.

---

I know what I meant when I wrote that, it was an example to make a point, perhaps rereading it will help?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I know what I meant when I wrote that, it was an example to make a point, perhaps rereading it will help?

---

I reread it several times, and I still see the 'evolution is only a theory' line. If you do actual recognize that evolution is an accepted scientific fact, and were only using that awful false line as an example, then I apologize. But I only tend to see that line used by people who don't understand what evolution is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ivyna J Spyder

I reread it several times, and I still see the 'evolution is only a theory' line. If you do actual recognize that evolution is an accepted scientific fact, and were only using that awful false line as an example, then I apologize. But I only tend to see that line used by people who don't understand what evolution is.

---

There ya go ;)

Careful there guys you may be accused of hijacking this thread if you dare to discuss evolution.

I think they definitely can have a preference for one person over another, and can get used to their owner, However; I think it more likely to be conditioning or that they are choosing the lesser of 2 evils...the known vs the unknown.

When one of my children says " look he likes me!" because one of our animals has decided his loose sleeve looks like a dark cozy warm place to hide, of course the answer is " Yes sweety,he most certainly does!"

I'll admit to projecting emotions on to my reptiles, to cooing and occasionally scolding them... But then I do that to my car too. In reality I have zero faith that my esteem is remotely returned ( by either), as much as I would like it to be so.:oops:

The only time I see my reptiles waiting excitedly at their door for my arrival is on feeding day (God willing with ball pythons!)

I agree with what others have already said. We all like to think ourselves 'special', and our animals are 'exceptional' ( which they are of course) but to believe that the emotions we project on them are what they truly feel, is in my opinion extremely naive.

I believe that all reptiles know who their owner(s) is. My Ball Python is PRETTY good with everyone, not too shy, not too agressive, but he does seem to explore around a lot more with my step-dad and I who are his normal care-takers and handlers. Also, my Chinese Water Dragon does this as well. He is super calm with my step-dad, me (Normally. Heh. But I hold him a lot. ;D), and my cousin that loves him to death.
It could possibly be that they are just calmer around people that are calm but I've had very calm friends and family try to hold my CWD and he is like ten times more jumpy.

There is also another thing to consider.. even though I do think they can tell differences through smell and movement what about sensing feelings of US?
There is scientific backing that animals have the ability to sense or intemperate emotion/fear from humans and use it to their advantage. If you approach a snake with fear, and lets say it senses that fear by feeling your blood pressure, heartbeat, and breathing rate wouldn't you be more jumpy too? If I were the snake, it would make me feel endangered and either cause me to strike or attempt to get away.

About the animals having emotion.. I don't know with reptiles, but this is my general theory.
If animals have the ability to be ANGRY and the ability to clearly be AFRAID or UPSET. Where is there no emotion? I think that if you scream at a dog and it cowers, it is showing submission and the behavior of fear. Fear is in fact an emotion. So is happiness, which I can see in my dog. When I come home runs down with her camel toy in her mouth wagging her tail furiously jumping all over. This to me expresses happiness or excitement. All of these are emotional properties.
For snakes? I think that it's a step lower from mammals almost.. I think they have the ability to feel specific emotions but like dogs and cats, maybe not the same ones we have come to feel, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have NO emotion to them. After all, it's the initial fear that causes a snake to tag you isn't it? :]

So basically I think due to intelligence levels, mammals (humans included) and reptiles have a different set of emotions and different ways of showing them. Do I think that reptiles can love or hate? Not really, but that doesn't mean they can't be afraid or happy either. :]

I think they are familiar with us, as they see us most often. But they don't know us like a dog does.

I think so.

I am of the school of thought that most animals have a sixth sense about other living things, including human beings. I love all animals and have owned many different types of pets. I have come in contact with lots of animals and have seen nervousness in certain animals when being held or touched by one person that vanishes when held by another. On a recent visit to the Dallas World Aquarium, there was a bird on the handrail in the rainforest area. A gentleman in front of me kept attempting to pet this bird and it kept ducking its head and inching away. I reached out to pet it and it actually leaned into my touch.

With regard to our pet snakes, here's something that I've discussed with my husband yet have never seen it addressed in this forum. Snakes do not have ears and don't "hear" the way other animals do. However, they are aware of vibrations. Our voices reverberate from our larynx down into our chest and out into the air when we speak. Different voices carry different patterns of vibration. I believe a snake can "recognize" it's owner's voice by its distinct vibratory pattern, i.e. frequency.

Call this far-fetched, but that's my opinion. I truly believe that Alice knows me by my scent, by sight, by the method in which I handle him, and by the "sound" of my voice.

Not necessarily scientific, but definitely hypothetical!

Robbin

I've been keeping snakes for a long time, and as I approach my third decade of association with them, I am starting to change my perception of how we interact with them.

Yesterday I had to take my oldest children's python (17 years old!) to the vet.

She hasn't eaten for 8 weeks and is starting to lose a bit of mass. She is shedding perfect and behaving normally - but she just won't eat.

Anyway, we were at the vet's for about 2 hours. She was an angel through the exam and then she had to endure a blood test for a CPC, an antibiotic injection and a force feeding.

She took it like a trooper and at one point, I looked into the back room and saw two techs holding her body down while her head poked up and calmly surveyed the scene.

I've been around her for a long, long time and could tell that as they brought her back - that she was agitated. She was rigidly coiled around the tech's arm but as I went into the hall to greet her, she must have caught wind of me because she almost jumped right of the tech's arm to get to me.

We had to wait about 15 minutes for the vet to come back in and explain her course of treatment. The whole time, she coiled her tail around my index and middle fingers and laid placidly on my chest - no nosing around - just contentedly laying with her head on my heart.

We can go around and around on how cognitive snakes are. I can tell you this -and you can ascribe any explanation you want to it - that animal took comfort in my presence after a tough ordeal. When she refused to cooperate with the vet for the mouth examination, it was me she let open her jaws up so they could have a look inside.

Over the years I've taken snakes in that were deemed "mean" or aggressive and with a little patience and respect, have turned them into wonderful pets. Maybe snakes have pea sized brains incapable of computing anything but eating, drinking and making more snakes, but I have seen enough examples of them taking comfort in their owner's presence and repaying respect and patience with calm behavior to think that they can be neatly labeled.

Yesterday was the kicker for me - I have a large collection of pet snakes that I actively spend interacting with. Whether my little children's girl makes it or not, she and I got a bit closer yesterday. It saddens me that I may lose her, but at the same time I can let her go knowing that after 16.5 years - pea sized brain or not - she knows who I am and associates me with comfort and security.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skiploder

I've been keeping snakes for a long time, and as I approach my third decade of association with them, I am starting to change my perception of how we interact with them.

Yesterday I had to take my oldest children's python (17 years old!) to the vet.

She hasn't eaten for 8 weeks and is starting to lose a bit of mass. She is shedding perfect and behaving normally - but she just won't eat.

Anyway, we were at the vet's for about 2 hours. She was an angel through the exam and then she had to endure a blood test for a CPC, an antibiotic injection and a force feeding.

She took it like a trooper and at one point, I looked into the back room and saw two techs holding her body down while her head poked up and calmly surveyed the scene.

I've been around her for a long, long time and could tell that as they brought her back - that she was agitated. She was rigidly coiled around the tech's arm but as I went into the hall to greet her, she must have caught wind of me because she almost jumped right of the tech's arm to get to me.

We had to wait about 15 minutes for the vet to come back in and explain her course of treatment. The whole time, she coiled her tail around my index and middle fingers and laid placidly on my chest - no nosing around - just contentedly laying with her head on my heart.

We can go around and around on how cognitive snakes are. I can tell you this -and you can ascribe any explanation you want to it - that animal took comfort in my presence after a tough ordeal. When she refused to cooperate with the vet for the mouth examination, it was me she let open her jaws up so they could have a look inside.

Over the years I've taken snakes in that were deemed "mean" or aggressive and with a little patience and respect, have turned them into wonderful pets. Maybe snakes have pea sized brains incapable of computing anything but eating, drinking and making more snakes, but I have seen enough examples of them taking comfort in their owner's presence and repaying respect and patience with calm behavior to think that they can be neatly labeled.

Yesterday was the kicker for me - I have a large collection of pet snakes that I actively spend interacting with. Whether my little children's girl makes it or not, she and I got a bit closer yesterday. It saddens me that I may lose her, but at the same time I can let her go knowing that after 16.5 years - pea sized brain or not - she knows who I am and associates me with comfort and security.

---

That is a wonderful and sweet thing to have happen. You have my wishes to her good health. :please:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skiploder

Anyway, we were at the vet's for about 2 hours. She was an angel through the exam and then she had to endure a blood test for a CPC, an antibiotic injection and a force feeding.

She took it like a trooper and at one point, I looked into the back room and saw two techs holding her body down while her head poked up and calmly surveyed the scene.

I've been around her for a long, long time and could tell that as they brought her back - that she was agitated. She was rigidly coiled around the tech's arm but as I went into the hall to greet her, she must have caught wind of me because she almost jumped right of the tech's arm to get to me.

We had to wait about 15 minutes for the vet to come back in and explain her course of treatment. The whole time, she coiled her tail around my index and middle fingers and laid placidly on my chest - no nosing around - just contentedly laying with her head on my heart.

---

What a beautiful story. It reminds me of the story a co-worker told me about the bp he used to have. He used to let it free-roam and started vacuuming and the snake bolted across the room and wrapped itself around his leg. While this does not show the best judgement (considering how snakes can sense vibration, he should have realized the vacuum would scare the snake), it does show that the snake took comfort in being close to his owner.

I definitely think my snake recognizes me, just like she recognizes her mouse when it's feeding time. My version of pre-scenting is that I hold up the mouse and blow into the tank past the mouse - her tongue flicks furiously :snake::rat: and she immediately goes into strike mode and it's very obvious.

Conversely, when I open the top of her tank and reach in for her, she flicks that tongue :snake: and seems to relax so I can lift her out. She never goes into 'strike mode' when my hand is in the tank. So this being so obviously different from feeding - in my mind there is no doubt that she recognizes me.

Also, I firmly believe they can differentiate between me and my hubby - their sense of smell is to good for her not to be able to do this.

Therefore, she can tell who her owner is.

I put yes just because it makes me feel better to think all my snakes know and love me....they at least seem calmer when I handle them and they consistently try to come back to me if I hand them off.

after helping my pastel with his first shed hes very comfortable with me, hes only 6.5 months old and hes curled around my neck as im typing this just chilling, sleeping, taking in the heat i guess, lol... but whenever my friends hold him he just keeps looking at me till i take him back... he always sleeps on me, sometimes i go out driving with him chillin on my wrist like a bracelet... hes really cool like that, never struck at me, never shown aggression, or even hissed... even when i screw around with his cage he could care less, but whenever my friends reach in to grab him (even my friends who also have snakes) he will ball up or slither away... since the 2nd week i got him he hasnt balled up once while i hold him... so i guess i got a trusting snake