Derma balls

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

So scaleless corns and rats are wrong too?????

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In my eyes, yes.

Although I think it is unique and even has a certain coolness factor to it, one must wonder what inherent genetic problems it posseses

10 years from now....The DERMA AXANTHIC PIEBALD! Kidding....I wonder if you could see through the skin. With white skin and no scales....???:weirdface

That guy doesn't look like 700 grams to me...

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

I do not even think they should try to prove it out. No heat pits? No protective scales that also do other things? It just sounds like humans being greedy to me, and not thinking of the snake:colbert: I'm not saying that you all agree with it, but i would not support it.

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Its like breeding german shepherds for bad hips. it may look nice but that animal has a serious problem.

I can see how having no scales may make the animal more prone to scratches, but apart from that, in a captive environment...I can't see it as seriously disadvantaged. A lot depends on whether whatever caused that mutation has any other effects (the snake might be sterile--future manifestations might lack important scales such as eye caps, etc).

But the snake does have eye caps, and it eats, grows, and presumeably behaves normally. It is purportedly healthy. It doesn't even have the disadvantage that hairless mammals have, because being a reptile, it's ectothermic. While the scales provide protection from the environment, it's not as if the animal has no skin--we get by with just skin, and no fur or scales. Perhaps its skin is thin, but if it's not habitually getting scratched or cut, then it's not coming to any harm from its peculiar condition.

I've seen people saying that it has no heat pits, but it was obvious to me the first time I laid eyes on it that it does--the heat pits are shaped by the lip scales, but underneath those scales is sensitive skin--and that's what you see, just the skin, without the scales that would give the pits their shape. They still work just fine.
Obviously, as the animal has no problems eating.

All morphs are genetic mutations, and many of the carry with them potential problems, or sensitivities, that a normal animal would not have. White ball pythons would sunburn--but in captivity, they almost never see the sun. The eyesight of albinos is poor, and they may go blind if exposed to bright light or UV--but in captivity, that is unlikely to happen, and it's unlikely to prove to be a serious handicap if it does.
The derma ball would be scratched and develop infections as a result, in the wild--but it isn't in the wild, and scratches can be easily treated with a topical antibiotic ointment, and prevented by keeping it on newspaper in a cage with no sharp edges.

Apart from its bizarre appearance, what is the REAL problem with it? Where do you draw the line between a 'morph' and a deformity? If someone bred ball pythons that grew to 8 feet, which category would they be in? What if they never exceeded 3 feet? What about the oddly shaped faces of the cinnamon line? Is that a deformity, or just an interesting morph characteristic? (It doesn't seem to do the animal any harm).

I think there is a good chance that the derma ball suffers no handicap from its condition in the environment it lives in--captivity. If it's not handicapped, why consider that to be a deformity?

I've seen people talk about how many other health problems it might have--what if it has none? What if all derma balls will hatch out looking just like that one--partially scaled, but with eyecaps and all the necessary body parts, and in otherwise good health? Would opinions change?

i don't see anyone freaking about the hairless rats and cats and whatever else that's being bred. It's essentially the same thing - it's lacking the protective outer layer that evolved due to the environmental pressures influencing selection for the past few million years.

Since that environment ... *doesn't exist* in our racks and aquariums - i guess i'd say that so long as it lives an otherwise normal life, selecting for that gene is no worse than selecting for any other recessive gene.

I just skimmed through the thread, which I had read before, and I dont think amyone mentioned this yet. What if this is some sort of evolution happening right before our eyes. People would be quick to dismiss it, but we really never know.

Just like the tasmanian devil, they were dying off with some sort of cancer at an alarming rate, and therefore they evolved and started breeding at a younger age. I believe they were breeding at 3 to 4 years before and now they are breeding succesfully at a year or less. This ladies and gentleman is evolution.

:taz::snake:

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Originally Posted by nchapa

I just skimmed through the thread, which I had read before, and I dont think amyone mentioned this yet. What if this is some sort of evolution happening right before our eyes. People would be quick to dismiss it, but we really never know.

Just like the tasmanian devil, they were dying off with some sort of cancer at an alarming rate, and therefore they evolved and started breeding at a younger age. I believe they were breeding at 3 to 4 years before and now they are breeding succesfully at a year or less. This ladies and gentleman is evolution.

:taz::snake:

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This is one snake.... that lost its scale to no beneficial benefits and was just a freak of nature. Evolution I think not.

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Originally Posted by Morphie

i don't see anyone freaking about the hairless rats and cats and whatever else that's being bred. It's essentially the same thing - it's lacking the protective outer layer that evolved due to the environmental pressures influencing selection for the past few million years.

Since that environment ... *doesn't exist* in our racks and aquariums - i guess i'd say that so long as it lives an otherwise normal life, selecting for that gene is no worse than selecting for any other recessive gene.

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Hairless rats and cats are mammals

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Originally Posted by nchapa

Just like the tasmanian devil, they were dying off with some sort of cancer at an alarming rate, and therefore they evolved and started breeding at a younger age. I believe they were breeding at 3 to 4 years before and now they are breeding succesfully at a year or less. This ladies and gentleman is evolution.

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Yes, that's probably a good example of evolution. The ones who were able to breed early were the ones who were able to pass their genes most effectively, and now more of the ones you can see are doing it.

Evolution is the weeding out of failed genetics through selection. It's a never-ending cycle of genetic bottle necks and re-distributions, mutations and lucky breaks -- or missed chances.

Unfortunately for the derma-ball, his mutation isn't likely to put him in any kind of advantageous position in a wild population. Honestly it's more likely that he'd be at a disadvantage and quickly be removed from the gene pool. If there, say, were a fatal disease that started going around in balls that was like... necrosis of the heat pits or something, this python *might* gain an advantage and start changing the face of the species forever by out-competing for resources and breeding opportunities (which would be an example of evolution).

You seem to think that evolution is like climate change - it happens to everyone equally at the same time, which is not really the case at all. The ones who are unfit die off, and the ones who are fit survive to reproduce. A very long series of successfully advantageous mutations are responsible for the great variety of every living thing you see on the earth today.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Cats and rats are mammals

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your point?

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Originally Posted by nchapa

his ladies and gentleman is evolution.

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Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.

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According to the scientific definition of what is evolution, that is not evolution.

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Originally Posted by Morphie

your point?

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though hairless mammals do have their problems, I cannot agree that it is the same situation as a Derma ball. One rat bite and this thing is a gonner,and also because it is scaless, how do we know what temps to put it at?

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

though hairless mammals do have their problems, I cannot agree that it is the same situation as a Derma ball. One rat bite and this thing is a gonner,and also because it is scaless, how do we know what temps to put it at?

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rats... get rat bites all the time. The hairless ones are somewhat more fragile (it's recommended that you not put hairless rats in a metal cage, for example) - which is a situation homologous to the derma ball. It's a somewhat more fragile version of the wild type.

Also i don't find that rats have any real trouble puncturing even scaled snakes when given the chance... so i don't know why necessarily a rat bite = "gonner" for a scale-less one.

Just because the snake is scaleless doesn't mean it's not still ectothermic. You'd still put the temp at normal BP temps.

I feel that you're making a few stretches here to say that the situations are different to any large extent. :/

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

though hairless mammals do have their problems, I cannot agree that it is the same situation as a Derma ball. One rat bite and this thing is a gonner,and also because it is scaless, how do we know what temps to put it at?

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This would be a situation where the benefits of feeding pre-killed would far outweigh any benefits of feeding live. I would think you would also keep it at your standard temperatures -- and just like any other ball, it would thermo-regulate itself. While it is likely that it could burn itself much easier due to the lack of scales, I would think that unless you have a thermostat malfunction it wouldn't be something to worry about.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with it as long as it can live and function properly just like any other snake. It's not like its missing it's eyes or has a kinked spine. The scaleless corns and rats that I've seen don't seem to have any health problems, and you gotta admit -- the lack of scales really makes those colors POP.

In the end it comes down to what every morph/mutation does -- personal preference. Some people might like it, some might not. As we've seen in a recent thread, some people are VERY much against something as little as the spider wobble. While others have no problems with breeding caramels that might come out kinked. Like it or hate it, noone is going to force you to buy it or breed for it.

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Originally Posted by Morphie

rats... get rat bites all the time. Also i don't find that rats have any real trouble puncturing even scaled snakes when given the chance... so i don't know why necessarily a rat bite = "gonner" for a scale-less one.

Just because the snake is scaleless doesn't mean it's not still ectothermic. You'd still put the temp at normal BP temps.

I feel that your arguments are... lacking :/

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That is because I am not Arguing, this thing isnt even genetic so it does not even matter! your waisting you time trying to prove anything. Do you think that if a rat bit a scaleless one it would not go deeper than one with scales? I have around 4 scaleless(LMAO EDIT! hairless:P) rats and one I have had since july, still no marks on any of them. Why would you want a less than perfect bp? Because you think its pretty?:rolleyes: You can do what you want but you will not see one in my collection should one ever prove out.

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

This would be a situation where the benefits of feeding pre-killed would far outweigh any benefits of feeding live. I would think you would also keep it at your standard temperatures -- and just like any other ball, it would thermo-regulate itself. While it is likely that it could burn itself much easier due to the lack of scales, I would think that unless you have a thermostat malfunction it wouldn't be something to worry about.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with it as long as it can live and function properly just like any other snake. It's not like its missing it's eyes or has a kinked spine. The scaleless corns and rats that I've seen don't seem to have any health problems, and you gotta admit -- the lack of scales really makes those colors POP.

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The only problem with that is while most will take p/k or f/t, alot do not. About half of my snakes will only eat live. Im not fully saying that it could not live a normal life, im saying why would you want to encourage breeding a snake that could have complications?

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

The only problem with that is while most will take p/k or f/t, alot do not. About half of my snakes will only eat live. Im not fully saying that it could not live a normal life, im saying why would you want to encourage breeding a snake that could have complications?

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Do you plan on breeding your bee?

As far as eating live, I'm of the opinion that any snake can be conditioned to eat p/k or f/t if started at a young age and continued through out their life. I also have about half of my collection of balls that will only eat live, but most of them took f/t easily at a young age. It wasn't until after I started regularly feeding them live that they started to refuse f/t.

Yes I do, and my spider:) No wobbles or spins here. Even if there was, it is a different situation than a scaleless ball.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Yes I do, and my spider:) No wobbles or spins here. Even if there was, it is a different situation than a scaleless ball.

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Spiders that don't wobble can still produce spiders that do. ;) I would consider a severe case of spinning that makes it difficult for the animal to eat a much more serious situation than a lack of scales. Like I said before though, it really all comes down to personal preference. While I'm not real big on the patches of scales here and there, I do think that scaleless corns are pretty hot.

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

Spiders that don't wobble can still produce spiders that do. ;) I would consider a severe case of spinning that makes it difficult for the animal to eat a much more serious situation than a lack of scales. Like I said before though, it really all comes down to personal preference. While I'm not real big on the patches of scales here and there, I do think that scaleless corns are pretty hot.

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How many wobbling/spinning spiders have you produced from non wobbling/spinning parents? It is also true that when a spider is mixed the wobble/ spin is Diluted, and seeing that I will not produce any normal spiders that are already coming from a non wobbling/spinning stock I do not see a problem. You cant do that with Dermas... either its scaleless or its not

I really am done with this thread, like I said before, none of us will ever get the chance to own a ng derma ball so I do not see any point in wasting my time posting about it.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

That is because I am not Arguing

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:rofl:

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this thing isnt even genetic so it does not even matter!

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It almost certainly *is* genetic (what, you think it's environmental?). Genetics are very often more complicated than simple dominance and recessive mendelian scenarios. Just because we haven't learned *how* it is genetic, doesn't mean it's not genetic. :P

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Why would you want a less than perfect bp? Because you think its pretty? :rolleyes:

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*i* never said i wanted this particular morph, for the record. I was simply pointing out that it was not really any different from hairless mammals and therefore not really deserving of all the cynicism it's getting.

Why would I want a less than perfect BP? Well, why do any of us like the morphs we have? Albinos don't tend to survive very long because their bright colors make them an easily spotted snack. I guess no one should have albinos, and "because we think they're pretty" is some kind of stupid reason according to you? Why would you have *any* morph if looks are of no importance to you?

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im saying why would you want to encourage breeding a snake that could have complications?

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I'm going to let this go now. I feel like your arguments (yes, they are arguments) show a propensity on your part to say things without really thinking about them, and so i guess "your" right when you say i'm "waisting" my time (spelling snobbery there - i can't help it).

Thanks, wasting, got it... Your wasting you time typing. your right, its just like an albino? They are a natural accurence, and just about every species has one.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Thanks, wasting, got it. your right, its just like an albino? They are a natural accurence, and just about every species has one.

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See above comment about how you don't think about what you say before you say it, and how i'm done arguing this with you.

:gj:

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Originally Posted by Morphie

See above comment about how you don't think about what you say before you say it, and how i'm done arguing this with you.

:gj:

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ok...

I'm seeing so many rumors being repeated as facts here, it's getting kinda crazy.

A) Yes, the Derma-ball has heat pits. You cannot see them, because normally a specially shaped scaled covers that area, one that allows the skin to be exposed inside--the scale is missing, so you just see the skin instead, which is mostly smooth. LOOK CLOSELY. The snake also uses its heat pits and eats normally. Heat pits are not like nasal passages, there are no holes going back into the snake's face--it's an area of very sensitive nerves covered by skin, that's all.

B) There has not been enough time to prove whether the Derma-ball can be reproduced. It has been an unsuccessful breeder! That doesn't mean it is not genetic, it means the snake is young and hasn't produced any offspring yet. It's so young, there's not even any reason to suspect that it can't. Once it does, you STILL HAVE TO WAIT 3 YEARS to find out whether it's a recessive gene, let alone something more complex than that. Logically speaking, it's going to be the same gene that produces scalelessness in rat snakes.
If so, then it's a recessive gene, and we'll have a wait to see more of them.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

How many wobbling/spinning spiders have you produced from non wobbling/spinning parents? It is also true that when a spider is mixed the wobble/ spin is Diluted, and seeing that I will not produce any normal spiders that are already coming from a non wobbling/spinning stock I do not see a problem.

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This is a very alarming post for me. Where did your information come from. I have produced many Spiders over the last three years, and they all came from my original Spider. I have never detected any spinning or wobbles from him. However, I have produced animals that have slight wobbles, and even produced a Spider that appeared to be normal, until he was about 6 months old. At that age, he had already been sold, and he began to spin like a helicopter. So, thinking that your non-spinning Spider is only going to produce non-spinning offspring is definitely a misconception.

I also wonder where you heard about this "dilution" of the Spider wobble when they animal is crossed. I can tell you that one of the Spinners that I produced this year gets the shakes when a prey item appears in her tub. I also can tell you that my HoneyBee male shakes his head almost everytime you open his tub. Lastly, my BumbleBee female does the same as my Spinner female, and wobbles when a prey item is present. My male Spinner and my male BumbleBee do not show these signs. So with all of that siad, I would not say that outcrossing or "mixing" of the Spider gene does not appear to affect the potential problem with Spiders. I still love all of my Spiders and crosses, and would never stop working with the project for any reason. Spiders also happen to appear to be one of the most inquisitive of Ball python morphs in my collection.

I hope I was able to shed some light on the current discussions,

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Originally Posted by muddoc

This is a very alarming post for me. Where did your information come from. I have produced many Spiders over the last three years, and they all came from my original Spider. I have never detected any spinning or wobbles from him. However, I have produced animals that have slight wobbles, and even produced a Spider that appeared to be normal, until he was about 6 months old. At that age, he had already been sold, and he began to spin like a helicopter. So, thinking that your non-spinning Spider is only going to produce non-spinning offspring is definitely a misconception.

I also wonder where you heard about this "dilution" of the Spider wobble when they animal is crossed. I can tell you that one of the Spinners that I produced this year gets the shakes when a prey item appears in her tub. I also can tell you that my HoneyBee male shakes his head almost everytime you open his tub. Lastly, my BumbleBee female does the same as my Spinner female, and wobbles when a prey item is present. My male Spinner and my male BumbleBee do not show these signs. So with all of that siad, I would not say that outcrossing or "mixing" of the Spider gene does not appear to affect the potential problem with Spiders. I still love all of my Spiders and crosses, and would never stop working with the project for any reason. Spiders also happen to appear to be one of the most inquisitive of Ball python morphs in my collection.

I hope I was able to shed some light on the current discussions,

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Ive read it a few times in posts, but this proves me wrong! Maybe someone will come in a chime in on the matter

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Ive read it a few times in posts, but this proves me wrong! Maybe someone will come in a chime in on the matter

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Matt,
I'm not claiming anything as definite as "you are wrong", but I did want to interject and state that I have seen some thing that are contrary to your original statements. I too would definitely like to hear some other experiences.

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Originally Posted by muddoc

Matt,
I'm not claiming anything as definite as "you are wrong", but I did want to interject and state that I have seen some thing that are contrary to your original statements. I too would definitely like to hear some other experiences.

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Ive just seen my fair shair of a spider mixes with no problems along with the odd post every now and then I thought that it was true, but Ive also read of combos having the spin and wobble on occasion. I tried looking up the posts I read this in seeing if I could find out more information but did not have any luck.

boy this thread is all over the place!! :) but a few comments:

There are/have been at least 3 scaleless/partially scaleless bps in existence. I assume the are all still alive.

It think it might well have heat sensing ability still from the skin on the nose, of course it doesn't have heat "pits" because the pits are created by the scales themselves.

As far as I can tell from my experience there is absolutely no recipe for making non-wobbling spiders... even if you start out with one that doesn't. Spider combos are equally likely to wobble.

Justin

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

boy this thread is all over the place!! :) but a few comments:

There are/have been at least 3 scaleless/partially scaleless bps in existence. I assume the are all still alive.

It think it might well have heat sensing ability still from the skin on the nose, of course it doesn't have heat "pits" because the pits are created by the scales themselves.


Justin

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I think you are right on Justin. While the snake appears to be lacking the scales to make the pits I ASSUME that the snake still has heat sensing ability. A high powered flashlight might be useful in finding out if the derma in question can sense heat.
From the looks of other scaleless snakes that have been proven to be genetic the amount of missing scales can vary quite a bit.......it makes me wonder if some of the dermas will have scales to create the pits. I imagine they will but we will have to wait...(that is of course assuming that the derma does prove to be genetic).

I was only aware of two...now three....hmmm

as of right now i know of 3 for sure the original male. there is a female
i dont know the sex of the 3rd animals and there maybe one more


thanks jon

yeah it's shopped.. look at the left side of the pic. you can see the contrasting and it looks fuzzy like he messed up the layers when he was putting the pic together. look at it closely and you'll see it's not real

Samurai...it's a real snake...and there's nothing wrong with the photo... lol

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Originally Posted by SamuraiZr0

yeah it's shopped.. look at the left side of the pic. you can see the contrasting and it looks fuzzy like he messed up the layers when he was putting the pic together. look at it closely and you'll see it's not real

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No actually it's not. I use photoshop on a regular basis, and the difficulty and time it would take a professional to photoshop something like that is a waste. Not to mention, there would be no easy way to graft skin on it like that and the scales with matching coloration. We're talking straight days of work here, that I doubt anyone would do. You can also see the reality of the snake if you look by the tail, where the skin wrinkles. The patched scales are also completely randomized.

Sorry, I'm kinda a nut when people just assume something is 'shopped'.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I can see how having no scales may make the animal more prone to scratches, but apart from that, in a captive environment...I can't see it as seriously disadvantaged. A lot depends on whether whatever caused that mutation has any other effects (the snake might be sterile--future manifestations might lack important scales such as eye caps, etc).

But the snake does have eye caps, and it eats, grows, and presumeably behaves normally. It is purportedly healthy. It doesn't even have the disadvantage that hairless mammals have, because being a reptile, it's ectothermic. While the scales provide protection from the environment, it's not as if the animal has no skin--we get by with just skin, and no fur or scales. Perhaps its skin is thin, but if it's not habitually getting scratched or cut, then it's not coming to any harm from its peculiar condition.

I've seen people saying that it has no heat pits, but it was obvious to me the first time I laid eyes on it that it does--the heat pits are shaped by the lip scales, but underneath those scales is sensitive skin--and that's what you see, just the skin, without the scales that would give the pits their shape. They still work just fine.
Obviously, as the animal has no problems eating.

All morphs are genetic mutations, and many of the carry with them potential problems, or sensitivities, that a normal animal would not have. White ball pythons would sunburn--but in captivity, they almost never see the sun. The eyesight of albinos is poor, and they may go blind if exposed to bright light or UV--but in captivity, that is unlikely to happen, and it's unlikely to prove to be a serious handicap if it does.
The derma ball would be scratched and develop infections as a result, in the wild--but it isn't in the wild, and scratches can be easily treated with a topical antibiotic ointment, and prevented by keeping it on newspaper in a cage with no sharp edges.

Apart from its bizarre appearance, what is the REAL problem with it? Where do you draw the line between a 'morph' and a deformity? If someone bred ball pythons that grew to 8 feet, which category would they be in? What if they never exceeded 3 feet? What about the oddly shaped faces of the cinnamon line? Is that a deformity, or just an interesting morph characteristic? (It doesn't seem to do the animal any harm).

I think there is a good chance that the derma ball suffers no handicap from its condition in the environment it lives in--captivity. If it's not handicapped, why consider that to be a deformity?

I've seen people talk about how many other health problems it might have--what if it has none? What if all derma balls will hatch out looking just like that one--partially scaled, but with eyecaps and all the necessary body parts, and in otherwise good health? Would opinions change?

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Thank you, that is what I wanted to say as well:gj:

I think these "derma" balls are awesome. I had the pleasure of holding one and the texture is amazing. It gives the snake a human like quality and their faces look so cool. The color on them is so clear and sharp. If it eats, poops, and breeds fine whats the problem? True I would probably only feed pre-killed and be mindful of what I put in the enclosure. One cool thing is these guys shed very frequently compared to a similarly sized ball. Also, the amount of scalelessness (is that a word?) varies quite a bit from partially to nearly fully (just a few scales).

All you people, who have negative things to say, are jealous. Lol, flame me! :P

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Originally Posted by SamuraiZr0

yeah it's shopped.. look at the left side of the pic. you can see the contrasting and it looks fuzzy like he messed up the layers when he was putting the pic together. look at it closely and you'll see it's not real

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lol what a sad individual...anything you dont believe in you just assume is photoshopped? I can assure you that this is not a photoshop none of them are...there are many more pictures, but these were the ones that were close ups.

another pic...

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/8...aonrockct8.jpg

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Originally Posted by SamuraiZr0

yeah it's shopped.. look at the left side of the pic. you can see the contrasting and it looks fuzzy like he messed up the layers when he was putting the pic together. look at it closely and you'll see it's not real

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Actually it is not... I have seen the animal in person at one of the shows up here on the east coast it is very real and he even let me hold it.

Well, the little guy looks like he was fat and healthy enough--I'd love to see pictures of him fully grown, I bet he's really something else. Definitely DIFFERENT.

Is there any new information on this?

X2,,,,,

I know Brian has some scaleless Balls, and they are something quite different than this Derma. However, I can't remember if he told me not to tell anyone about them, so I'll leave all the details out until further notice.

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Originally Posted by mricyfire

biggest kick in the balls today:D...derma most fragile, yet one of coolest to look at

for the ones who havent seen it
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/6126/derma2ol6.jpg

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Wow, Looks kinda weird lol.

I think it's a stunning animal. I really liked the scale-less rat and corn snakes. :)
I would also really love to see updated pictures.

PLEASE. :D