I tried keeping them separated

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Or they disproved this theory :)

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We'll never find out.... :P

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

No wait!

He knows a guy... :8:

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I'm glad I do ;)

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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

See post #36.

I mean it's just logic... hunters are experienced in finding places where BPs hide. And it would not make much sense to look for them at night.

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So what do those same hunters and field guys say on the nocturnal doings of these snakes? Do you have any actual references for that?

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

So what do those same hunters and field guys say on the nocturnal doings of these snakes? Do you have any actual references for that?

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They hunt if hungry... and they're active, just like when kept in an enclosure. Come on, this should be common sense...

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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

The literature (plenty) I read states that BPs do indeed explore their enviroment looking for food. And I know someone who has been to Ghana several times, visiting several hatching farms and talking to locals. He's got to know, and he has written a book about BPs in German where he just says that.

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Could you provide us with a name or a link to this book? From the sounds of it, it appears that you guys are the end-all authority on ball pythons and it'd be great to learn more.

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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

They hunt if hungry... and they're active, just like when kept in an enclosure. Come on, this should be common sense...

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It is common sense Markus, if a BP is an ambush predator, then why would it always actively hunt for food like you imply?

I imagine they come out of their hides at dusk to warm up and follow the scent or trail of their prey, then they hunker down and wait for a passing food item, the essence of ambush.

I don't see it being much of a forager as they show little response to pinks and fuzzies when offered, and a gerbil would attack the snake that invaded it's nest. I'm very sure there are some that do it, but it isnt the main strategy used by BP's.

For as slow as the metabolic usage is of this snake, the expenditure of energy from actively following prey and foraging is far fetched in my mind.

His name is Stefan Broghammer, here is a link to his book:
http://www.shop1.ms-reptilien.de/pro...ep5ieh7rcen8h1
His website, he is the biggest BP breeder in Europe:
http://www.ms-reptilien.de
Some more interesting stuff to read:
http://www.stevegorzulapresents.com/...thon_ghana.pdf

I am not saying I know a lot... this guy does, though.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

It is common sense Markus, if a BP is an ambush predator, then why would it always actively hunt for food like you imply?

I imagine they come out of their hides at dusk to warm up and follow the scent or trail of their prey, then they hunker down and wait for a passing food item, the essence of ambush.

I don't see it being much of a forager as they show little response to pinks and fuzzies when offered, and a gerbil would attack the snake that invaded it's nest. I'm very sure there are some that do it, but it isnt the main strategy used by BP's.

For as slow as the metabolic usage is of this snake, the expenditure of energy from actively following prey and foraging is far fetched in my mind.

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I do not say they 'hunt' per se... of course do they wait in some place to strike, but they reach that spot by exploring their enviroment.

And I suppose this top breeder, with his thousand plus snakes, keeps them all in large, naturalistic enclousures?

That must be one monster of a breeding facility he has.

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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

I do not say they 'hunt' per se... of course do they wait in some place to strike, but they reach that spot by exploring their enviroment.

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So, following that train of thought, could we not say that a BP in a tub with his hide that knows the simple pattern that on Saturday night a rat will walk by his hide?

So why should that snake leave? When the rats quit coming... or he wants to breed.

It very possible to say that BP's in the wild only move when they need to find a new colony of rats/gerbils, and in the meantime do not move very far at all from their hide.

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Originally Posted by spix14

And I suppose this top breeder, with his thousand plus snakes, keeps them all in large, naturalistic enclousures?

That must be one monster of a breeding facility he has.

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He uses tubs of course... again, I am NOT saying BPs in small enclosures are unhappy at all! All I say is that big enclosures don't hurt and that they make sense if maintained well :)

Im with Markus 110% here... If you have the ability to give your snake more room while still meeting requirements you should do so. Im sure everyone on here gets sad when they go to the dog pound and see dogs stuck in cages... Going off the information found throughout this thread why do you feel bad? They have food... they have water... they could breed... the animals are happy right? Far from the truth... I know someone will chime in and say a dog isnt a snake but my question is why does it matter? Just bc it can live, eat, grow, breed in a small tub doesnt make it the best possible living conditions. I will keep all my adult females in a 4x2x1.5ft cage... when I no longer have room for these will I then move to racks? Naw ill stop buying/breeding snakes!

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

So, following that train of thought, could we not say that a BP in a tub with his hide that knows the simple pattern that on Saturday night a rat will walk by his hide?

So why should that snake leave? When the rats quit coming... or he wants to breed.

It very possible to say that BP's in the wild only move when they need to find a new colony of rats/gerbils, and in the meantime do not move very far at all from their hide.

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Please check pages 6 & 7 on this document: http://www.stevegorzulapresents.com/...thon_ghana.pdf

Hunters often find BP hides by looking for trails leading into holes, and entries that are 'smooth'... that implies that snakes do move around at night a lot.

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Originally Posted by JoshJP7

Im with Markus 110% here... If you have the ability to give your snake more room while still meeting requirements you should do so. Im sure everyone on here gets sad when they go to the dog pound and see dogs stuck in cages... Going off the information found throughout this thread why do you feel bad? They have food... they have water... they could breed... the animals are happy right? Far from the truth... I know someone will chime in and say a dog isnt a snake but my question is why does it matter? Just bc it can live, eat, grow, breed in a small tub doesnt make it the best possible living conditions. I will keep all my adult females in a 4x2x1.5ft cage... when I no longer have room for these will I then move to racks? Naw ill stop buying/breeding snakes!

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And you know why those dogs are separated and on concrete?? Because most, if not all, aren't vaccinated and have internal parasites. In order to keep diseases from passing, concrete is used as it is easy to sterilize with a high heat pressure washer. Puppies are carriers of Parvo, and when whole litters of puppies are in the shelter, and one across the way has Parvo or Distemper, how do you expect the caretakers to sterilize the area if the animals are kept in open fields of grass or dirt? It's not possible. One shelter in our area has proven that, as they keep their animals in large fenced in areas of grass/dirt and have a MASSIVE problem with disease and internal parasites. I prefer clean and sanitary myself..

But anywho! Good luck with that!

You obviously didnt get what I was trying to say with my dog example.

Let's make peace here... I am 100% sure we all love our animals, and we do the best we can to keep them happy :) And some discussion doesn't hurt, does it?

Why does it seem that certain people like to pipe up and tell a new keeper who doesn't have much experience or research under their belt that they can do something which without *tons* of attention, effort, care and knowledge, they are able to/can/should do the complete opposite of what is recommended and proven on the large scale.... THEN the thread ends up becoming arguing back and forth between tons of members and those one or two members who just feel the need to point out that there *can* be other ways of doing things....

SO lets just put it this way, just because you've put in the time and effort or research to learn that there are deviations from the 'norm' doesn't mean that those deviations work for everyone. The people who can successfully deviate due to extensive knowledge and effort are *not* the ones coming to an online reptile community asking questions and having problems with care and *THEREFORE* members doing this shouldn't be advising that they can or should deviate from proven husbandry methods.

Most people coming here for help are advised to move to tubs, properly set up two hides and water, and accurite temps and humidity... Why? Because they've never owned snakes before, tubs are proven to be the simplest way to provide the snake with basic needs, ensure they're eating and healthy and 'happy'. These aren't the sorts of people who should be advised to go out and keep a 55-90 gal tank, which will be very tough for someone new to the hobby to maintain proper temps and humidity in, which, if not set up meticulously will make the snake feel insecure, and which, without extensive research into normal snake pathology and behaviour and constant supervision should never be told they can house two together.

So what, it works for you. You feel that you have the years of experience, research and ability to do this. That's fine, but someone who has never kept snakes before, isn't already fully aware of husbandry and reptile behaviours, and is asking for help because their current husbandry is not working *is not you* and *it does not/is not working for them* which is exactly why they are being advised to move away from all these deviations in the first place.

I think comparing the needs of a pack animal like a dog has nothing to do with the enclosure we provide a snake. Dogs do show emotion (whimpering, yelping, whining, body language). Dogs also have a basic need to exercise; these are all things that govern a dogs mental and physical happiness. I don't see many snakes coming down with anxiety or separation issues because they are kept in a small tub or don't get enough exercise. I will happily be that person to chime in saying they're not the same...because they're NOT the same.

3 days ago I moved one of my snakes from a 30qt container to a 15qt. This snake had been fasting since October and last night he ate for me within 15 seconds of offering food. He's in a rack so the temp/conditions haven't changed. Wouldn't this be proof on the benefits of a smaller enclosure or did I just so happen to get lucky?

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Originally Posted by GirDance

Why does it seem that certain people like to pipe up and tell a new keeper who doesn't have much experience or research under their belt that they can do something which without *tons* of attention, effort, care and knowledge, they are able to/can/should do the complete opposite of what is recommended and proven on the large scale.... THEN the thread ends up becoming arguing back and forth between tons of members and those one or two members who just feel the need to point out that there *can* be other ways of doing things....

SO lets just put it this way, just because you've put in the time and effort or research to learn that there are deviations from the 'norm' doesn't mean that those deviations work for everyone. The people who can successfully deviate due to extensive knowledge and effort are *not* the ones coming to an online reptile community asking questions and having problems with care and *THEREFORE* members doing this shouldn't be advising that they can or should deviate from proven husbandry methods.

Most people coming here for help are advised to move to tubs, properly set up two hides and water, and accurite temps and humidity... Why? Because they've never owned snakes before, tubs are proven to be the simplest way to provide the snake with basic needs, ensure they're eating and healthy and 'happy'. These aren't the sorts of people who should be advised to go out and keep a 55-90 gal tank, which will be very tough for someone new to the hobby to maintain proper temps and humidity in, which, if not set up meticulously will make the snake feel insecure, and which, without extensive research into normal snake pathology and behaviour and constant supervision should never be told they can house two together.

So what, it works for you. You feel that you have the years of experience, research and ability to do this. That's fine, but someone who has never kept snakes before, isn't already fully aware of husbandry and reptile behaviours, and is asking for help because their current husbandry is not working *is not you* and *it does not/is not working for them* which is exactly why they are being advised to move away from all these deviations in the first place.

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No one said to move away from tubs... or did I miss this? Tubs are easy to maintain, clean etc... and the snakes do their thing properly in there as well. Does that mean that a big tank that is maintained properly by an experienced keeper is worse? No, of course not. Is it worse for an inexperienced keeper? Yes, of course it is. So I am with you basically, but again, I do not believe one bit that a BP does feel uncomfortable in a well maintained big tank with plenty of hides.

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Originally Posted by jseber1982

Ok about 2 months ago i separated my BPs as you all told me to do.

They were born together in the same clutch.

I heard that sometimes snakes can fast and not eat for a long time. I separated them into identical 20 gallon tanks. Both of them pretty much completely stopped being active and did not want to eat anything. They seemed to go days at a time without hardly moving.

I put them back together and within a week they both are eating and active again.

I noticed that when they are in here, they are always together and wrapped up together on a little ball.

When i hold them they always go by each other and hang out.

It isnt just one that does it, they each go to each other.

Does it seem like it is ok to keep them together? I know everyone says it is cruel to keep them together, but after watching them they seem happier i think.

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Just a few questions for you... When you had them each in their own 20G tanks, what were their temperatures and humidity? What were you using as a substrate and heat source, and what did you have set up for hides?

In the larger enclosure, same questions.

What you are perceiving as 'happiness' for your snakes is not typical snake behaviour, but signs of stress and dominance. Ball Pythons typically spend all of their time hiding, they are nocturnal, and in the wild spend the majority of their time within rat burrows and termite mounds. In captivity they are not typically active animals, and the consistent use of their hides and thermo-regulation are signs of good husbandry.

Curling up together is either 1. breeding, or 2. competition for the best place in the enclosure, not that they enjoy one another's company. They are not mammals, and they do not behave like mammals when healthy and 'happy'. This is the reason why everyone has advised they should be separated, they are showing signs of competition and dominance and stress.

If while in their separate enclosures they were not eating for you, the husbandry itself being off is the most likely cause, not that they 'missed' one another or felt lack of companionship.

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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

He uses tubs of course... again, I am NOT saying BPs in small enclosures are unhappy at all! All I say is that big enclosures don't hurt and that they make sense if maintained well :)

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Not exactly you said

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the larger the better

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which would imply that smaller enclosures are not best.

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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

No one said to move away from tubs... or did I miss this? Tubs are easy to maintain, clean etc... and the snakes do their thing properly in there as well. Does that mean that a big tank that is maintained properly by an experienced keeper is worse? No, of course not. Is it worse for an inexperienced keeper? Yes, of course it is. So I am with you basically, but again, I do not believe one bit that a BP does feel uncomfortable in a well maintained big tank with plenty of hides.

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The point I was making was more that people with little to no experience coming here asking for help should never be advised that they can or should deviate from proven methods. This is something you only do when you have years of experience and familiarity with an animal under your belt. The topic of this thread is keeping two housed together in a larger enclosure - something which is a huge deviation. Yes, I generalized, but the direction of the thread was getting bogged down with the old, "large enclosures aren't bad" direction as much as the question of housing the two together.

So I guess more on track:
His snakes are obviously trying to assert dominance over one another - so what if others can house two together successfully, or so what if others have properly managed to make use of a large enclosure... It's not working here and there seems to be a general lack of knowledge of snake behaviour involved as well, so to advise that he is able to deviate without this knowledge and experience under his belt is not a good idea. Ever.

Also an attempt to point out that the thread seemed to get way off topic with a lot of bickering about who thinks what is best debate type stuff, which doesn't help someone new to the hobby actually learn about their animals.

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Originally Posted by GA_Ball_Pythons

Not exactly you said
which would imply that smaller enclosures are not best.

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Not best does not mean bad... ;) I'm sure that bigger enclosures with plenty of hides and proper maintenance are better than smaller ones, but that does not make the smaller ones bad at all.

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Originally Posted by GirDance

The point I was making was more that people with little to no experience coming here asking for help should never be advised that they can or should deviate from proven methods. This is something you only do when you have years of experience and familiarity with an animal under your belt. The topic of this thread is keeping two housed together in a larger enclosure - something which is a huge deviation. Yes, I generalized, but the direction of the thread was getting bogged down with the old, "large enclosures aren't bad" direction as much as the question of housing the two together.

So I guess more on track:
His snakes are obviously trying to assert dominance over one another - so what if others can house two together successfully, or so what if others have properly managed to make use of a large enclosure... It's not working here and there seems to be a general lack of knowledge of snake behaviour involved as well, so to advise that he is able to deviate without this knowledge and experience under his belt is not a good idea. Ever.

Also an attempt to point out that the thread seemed to get way off topic with a lot of bickering about who thinks what is best debate type stuff, which doesn't help someone new to the hobby actually learn about their animals.

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I agree, good post. So let's stay on topic :) Sorry if I took this off-topic... :oops:

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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Please check pages 6 & 7 on this document: http://www.stevegorzulapresents.com/...thon_ghana.pdf

Hunters often find BP hides by looking for trails leading into holes, and entries that are 'smooth'... that implies that snakes do move around at night a lot.

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That hardly implies that they move around a lot or what time of day. It means that a snake is inhabiting that burrow, and moves in and out of the hide entrance. It reveals nothing other than that a snake is using it. It is by no means conclusive of how far or how often that snake moves about.

It's preached that bps should have two identical hides, right? And, that tubs are favorable over glass enclosures, correct? Can I ask then why is it that those using the tub setups only have one hide?

Also, the tubs look rather small. Is it still possible to keep a temp gradient?

I'm not trying to open another can of worms or anything, I'm just curious.

I practice what I preach... every snake gets 2 hides, something to climb on(fake tree of some sort), and a water dish. I prefer tubs over glass just bc they hold the heat/humidity better and theyre cheaper. As far as the temp gradient I cant answer that.

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Originally Posted by TanyaL

It's preached that bps should have two identical hides, right? And, that tubs are favorable over glass enclosures, correct? Can I ask then why is it that those using the tub setups only have one hide?

Also, the tubs look rather small. Is it still possible to keep a temp gradient?

I'm not trying to open another can of worms or anything, I'm just curious.

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I have two hides :) But I don't always use them... Why? Because Kitty seems to go through phases where she enjoys just moving one hide around, but I can fit two hides easily, and sometimes use both just to see if she'll bother to make use of them both instead of converting one into a mobile home.... Sometimes she does, but when I notice that she's just pushing the other one around I take one out so that she has free reign... They are identical in every way.

I also have a temp gradient. 3" flexwatt on the furthest end, regulated by herpstat to stay at 91, a 10x10" UTH in the middle which doesn't heat at all evenly (and which I hate) also on the herpstat and kept right beside the flexwatt which stays between 82-85 depending on which part of the UTH you measure the temp over, Ambient air temp and approx 6-7" on the far side stay between 77-80.

So yes, its possible to keep a temp gradient, in my case I provide warm, middle ground, cool.

And just because it looks small doesn't mean it is small. I have more floor space in my tub (measuring out by square inch) than I would if I were using the 10G or 20G aquariums we have, it's just much shorter.

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Originally Posted by TanyaL

It's preached that bps should have two identical hides, right? And, that tubs are favorable over glass enclosures, correct? Can I ask then why is it that those using the tub setups only have one hide?

Also, the tubs look rather small. Is it still possible to keep a temp gradient?

I'm not trying to open another can of worms or anything, I'm just curious.

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Yes it is very easy to keep a temp gradient UTH heating only heats the spot it is placed, 4" away it will be ambient temps.

I myself keep 2 hides but when using small tubs some keepers feel the tub alone makes them secure enough and they will go wherever they want but keep hide on warmer side. I have used one long hide before that covers warm and cool areas and they can move to the corner they prefer.


As far as the big tank theories I think Brian from BHB summed it up when he said for many years snakes were kept in larger enclosures and what they found is they spent 99% of the time in one smaller area of tank, wasting the majority of the space. When they moved them into smaller enclosures they found improved eating and breeding habits. This is evaluating 100's if not 1000's of animals not just a few. So no one is saying that you cant house them in larger tanks, thats how it was done for years, what they are saying is the people that work with large amounts of snakes have found better results with smaller enclosures for BP's. I have snakes that could care less where they are and others that are always nervous and paranoid and have to be in small tubs hiding constantly. So this is not every snake but some more than others.
To each his own.

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Originally Posted by TanyaL

It's preached that bps should have two identical hides, right? And, that tubs are favorable over glass enclosures, correct? Can I ask then why is it that those using the tub setups only have one hide?

Also, the tubs look rather small. Is it still possible to keep a temp gradient?

I'm not trying to open another can of worms or anything, I'm just curious.

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A lot has to do with knowing your animals and be in tune with them, which is often hard for a first time owner. This is why when I offer advice it is based on what I know will work even for an inexperienced owner.

Until the new owner acquires some experience and becomes confident about his husbandry everything should be done and recommended on the safe side.

Now do I provide 2 hides? No, but again it depends on the setup, the animal itself and being in tune with the animal.

Does a tub allow temps gradients? Absolutely!

I am not going to go off here, or say one 'side' is "more right" than another. What I AM going to say is this:

Every snake is different.

New keepers coming on for advice should be given the simplest and proven info. However, that does not always work for every animal out there. Then, because of the adamant way tubs are pushed, they believe they did something wrong, when in fact they may just have a snake that "defies the norm". The best thing to do is try out the proven methods for your animal and see what works best FOR THEM. After all, keeping these wonderful animals should focus on their comfort before ours.

If you want an example, then take my little girl Nagini. She is currently around 9 months old and a joy to own. I started her out in a well insulated and 'full' 20L tank and she was great! She never refused a meal, shed well (once I got the humidity right), and when she explored her cage it was always a nice calm cruise.
Well, around January I wanted to put her in a nice display cage but it wouldn't stabilize as far as temps or humidity. So, because I had already disinfected her 20L and put my ghost corn in there, I had to put Nagini in a tub for the winter. She hates the thing! :) She refused meals for a while and hardly cruises at night anymore.
Most people here say tubs are much better, but I have to disagree. In my tanks I get a wonderful gradient for temps...in tubs I have what amounts to two temp spots over two UTHs with no real spread. I WILL say, however, that the humidity stays right where it should in a tub...once you get it stable.

Ok, sorry for the rant, but this topic kind of gets my goat as it were. The bottom line is that every snake is different and the keeper should find out what works best for their snakes that is within their own means. And, of course, any changes that are made should be done slowly and gradually. :)

Thanks for not attacking me for my question. I was afraid that somebody would take it the wrong way. I appreciate the answers and LMAO over GirDance's mobile home comment! I was just curious why so many preach about two identical hides but only show one in their tub photos. I also thought that it would be harder to reach that temp gradient because of the smaller size. But, I guess not.


When I took Foster to the vet, I got a small rubbermaid type shoebox to put her in. I will say that the humidity was much easier to get it up to where it should be compared to the 20L that she is kept in. The heat on the other hand was a bit more challenging. But, I was using temp heat source so I shouldn't have expected any better.

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Originally Posted by TanyaL

I appreciate the answers and LMAO over GirDance's mobile home comment!

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That's seriously what she does.... To the point that some weeks she'll be so adamant on this course of action that in the process of the move the two hides end up in a collision course with one of them flipped over, half way over top the other or shoved and wedged in such a manner that neither move.... Other weeks, she'll leave it where it is, and then venture out expecting to have her 'summer home' and then I have to put it back.

Oh, and she moves it around without actually leaving it... It's like she spent a past life as a snail and never quite got over it.