Feeding live mice and rats is dangerous... Wives tale?

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I also follow Adam's methods, and with over 3000 live feedings, not one bite, not one scratch, not one mauling.

You think Adam's claims are dubious - do you really believe he'd risk his collection to live feeders if he really had problems?

I believe the OP asked for pictures of permanent scars left by injuries. You said you've had two, can you post those pictures of the permanent scarring from your animals being injured?

Four people voted that feeding left permanent scarring in their animals, but no one has posted a picture?:confuzd:

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I did not say I found his claims dubious. I said I was skeptical that there has never even been a scratch or bite. I wasn't even necessarily suggesting he's lying - mild injuries would be easy to miss especially with that many snakes. Most importantly, I said I believed that none of his snakes had been seriously injured.

I do not have time this evening to take pictures but I will say that there are permanent scale scars on two of my snakes and they look very much like the BP picture above. Actually, its three snakes if you count my olive that got a couple before she was in my (or Blake's) care. In fact, my BP's scar is on his eye but luckily it is extremely small. (If this thread is still going tomorrow, perhaps I'll take the time to take some photos).

The intent of my post was not to pick sides in the argument. In fact, I'm a bit on the fence when it comes to this subject. My main point was that its all about the details when it comes to live feeding. You see this pattern often in these threads:

1) Somebody makes a blanket claim about the safety of live feeding.
2) Somebody says "my snake has been injured" or something to that effect.
3) Somebody else starts asking questions in attempt to find fault in the keeper with questions like "But how big was the rat?" etc.

So all I'm saying is that I think that the original claim should be "Live feeding is very safe as long as ...". I think that, without the qualifiers, statements about the safety of live feeding can be dangerous.

Adam, I'll be sure to check out your more detailed thread on the issue.

Cheers!

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Originally Posted by bcampos

They eat live in the wild right?

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Well yes, as far as I know they are not scavengers of dead prey normally. However, equating wild feeding behaviours to captive, controlled live feedings isn't, in my opinion, of any real use. Wild is wild, captive is quite another thing.

I've long given up trying to figure out how many live feeds I've supervised with our collection. I will not state it's impossible that a snake might one day be injured, I will only say what is my personal experience and what we do to minimize risk.

In my own experience, with the current collection of 26 snakes, of various ages, from three different species we've yet to see a live feeding injury. We follow very specific guidelines, we have very rigid feeding protocols that we don't deviate from, we know each and every snake and what it is capable of, we offer only well fed, well hydrated live prey that we ourselves produce, we stay to specific sizes for specific snakes. It's a lot of attention to detail, however, for us and our snakes it's worth it.

Not one bite from a prey item and the only scars our snakes carry are from injuries sustained prior to us owning them. None of the scars by the way are from prey bites. They are the permanent marks of poor care and neglect from humans.

I feed F/T because

1 - She eats f/t, no problem
2 - I feel bad for the prey
3 - I've got no way to keep the prey should she not feed, F/T stores easier
4 - I'm not experienced enough to feed live. I'm afraid I wouldn't know what to do should an bit/attack happen. What can I say, I'm a chicken!

BUT - I have heard that the F/T rodents do lose nutrients (or whatever) that the snake needs. I may consider later on to feed live if this is indeed the case and I am confident enough to feed live. I would in no way put my snake in any kind of harm because of my lack of experience. Just not worth it, IMO. While some bites might come from a stroke of bad luck, I do believe that most of it is due to experience or a lack of.

If somebody can point me in the direction on the benefits of feeding live over F/T I would appreciate it. I don't know who to believe anymore. I mean, one source will say one thing and another will say the complete opposite. UGH!

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Originally Posted by TanyaL

I feed F/T because

1 - She eats f/t, no problem
2 - I feel bad for the prey
3 - I've got no way to keep the prey should she not feed, F/T stores easier
4 - I'm not experienced enough to feed live. I'm afraid I wouldn't know what to do should an bit/attack happen. What can I say, I'm a chicken!

BUT - I have heard that the F/T rodents do lose nutrients (or whatever) that the snake needs. I may consider later on to feed live if this is indeed the case and I am confident enough to feed live. I would in no way put my snake in any kind of harm because of my lack of experience. Just not worth it, IMO. While some bites might come from a stroke of bad luck, I do believe that most of it is due to experience or a lack of.

If somebody can point me in the direction on the benefits of feeding live over F/T I would appreciate it. I don't know who to believe anymore. I mean, one source will say one thing and another will say the complete opposite. UGH!

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Benefits:

Some snakes won't eat f / t.

It is easier for some keepers to feed live.

Some keepers like to watch the snake doing what a snake does best...

If your snake already eats regularly on f / t... there is no reason to switch them to live unless you have a good reason to.

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Originally Posted by TanyaL

I don't know who to believe anymore. I mean, one source will say one thing and another will say the complete opposite. UGH!

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Tanya, there isn't anyone to "believe" dear. It's not about live is better than frozen/thawed, or live is too dangerous or whatever. It is exactly about what you posted. You've actually in your inexperience said what should be said about feeding, as far as I'm concerned.

Feed what works - what you feel most comfortable feeding at your experience level - what your instincts tell you is right for you and for your snake - what your snake is feeding on and doing well on.

Everything else is opinions and experience and of value of course. Learn from them, consider them, and add them to your growing knowledge. Never stop being open to learning but in the end, do what you personally feel you can handle. As long as you are a happy, confident owner and your snake is healthy and doing well....it's all good. :)

Well, so far 62 people have voted. 8 of these votes claimed scaring as a result of correctly feeding live. HOWEVER most of the people that voted this way broke the golden rule and talked about what has happened to other people... things they heard of.

Only 2 people have been able to post picture "proof" of the scaring....

1 of these IN MY OPINION clearly shows where a rodent was allowed time alone with the rodent.. as it had obviously been chewed on over an extended area. The owner claimed that as he watched, the rat immediately attacked the snake and bit multiple times.... before the owner could react. yeah... :gj:

The other was a claim that a 1200 gram ball was scared by a MOUSE of average size... :rolleye2:

Many BIG names on this site... Ones that have collections us meer mortals can only dream of explain how after thousands and thousands of live feedings, they have never had a problem... Of course people accuse them of lying... or even said that they have to many snakes to even notice! LOL! I think it is safe to say when adam sells one of his 1500 dollar snakes, he is aware of any scars!!!!

Interesting... very interesting...

Suggesting that people are lying about their snake's injuries is silly.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I said I was skeptical that there has never even been a scratch or bite.

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I'm not sure what I've ever done to give you the impression that the information I share on this message board is less than accurate, but I say what I mean and mean what I say.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I wasn't even necessarily suggesting he's lying

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Well ... thank you ... I think.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

- mild injuries would be easy to miss especially with that many snakes.

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Maybe they would be for you, but not for me ... my animals are my life ... each one is closely inspected each week for all sorts of potential health problems and a rodent related injury would be noticed immediately.

I'm not trying to "convince" anyone that live feeding is SAFE ... only that it can be done safely, and that's only because that is a feat that I've managed to accomplished on a large scale for a long time.

I've extended the invite before for anyone that wishes to come to my shop on feeding day and feed 700+ ball pythons live to see how many get bit ... it still stands.

-adam

i feed live exlusively, had a mouse attempt to bite ONCE, stopped that with tweezers, the chances of them getting a serious bite in, with the 25-30 seconds of life they have left are very slim, 99% of the time the prey is a little more focused on trying to breathe, i supervise the whole feed until the prey is fully swallowed, it seems some people drop the prey in and wait 10 mins then act, from the pages i've read in this thread just the impression i got, a snake is a very effective predator, prey items around here don't stand a chance

Well once again you cant read!!! But hey its ok to post 57 times and call other people liars that you have never met or even conversed with. Everyone has an opinion. I am curious how many animals you really have and for how long. No need in replying though IN MY OPINION I am too old to give a crap about your opinion any longer than I have. You go on and continue to make judgements about people from behind your computer. Have a great day.

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Originally Posted by mcavana

Well, so far 62 people have voted. 8 of these votes claimed scaring as a result of correctly feeding live. HOWEVER most of the people that voted this way broke the golden rule and talked about what has happened to other people... things they heard of.

Only 2 people have been able to post picture "proof" of the scaring....

1 of these IN MY OPINION clearly shows where a rodent was allowed time alone with the rodent.. as it had obviously been chewed on over an extended area. The owner claimed that as he watched, the rat immediately attacked the snake and bit multiple times.... before the owner could react. yeah... :gj:

The other was a claim that a 1200 gram ball was scared by a MOUSE of average size... :rolleye2:

Many BIG names on this site... Ones that have collections us meer mortals can only dream of explain how after thousands and thousands of live feedings, they have never had a problem... Of course people accuse them of lying... or even said that they have to many snakes to even notice! LOL! I think it is safe to say when adam sells one of his 1500 dollar snakes, he is aware of any scars!!!!

Interesting... very interesting...

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Originally Posted by firehop

Well once again you cant read!!! But hey its ok to post 57 times and call other people liars that you have never met or even conversed with. Everyone has an opinion. I am curious how many animals you really have and for how long. No need in replying though IN MY OPINION I am too old to give a crap about your opinion any longer than I have. You go on and continue to make judgements about people from behind your computer. Have a great day.

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agreed:gj:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I'm not sure what I've ever done to give you the impression that the information I share on this message board is less than accurate, but I say what I mean and mean what I say.



Well ... thank you ... I think.



Maybe they would be for you, but not for me ... my animals are my life ... each one is closely inspected each week for all sorts of potential health problems and a rodent related injury would be noticed immediately.

I'm not trying to "convince" anyone that live feeding is SAFE ... only that it can be done safely, and that's only because that is a feat that I've managed to accomplished on a large scale for a long time.

I've extended the invite before for anyone that wishes to come to my shop on feeding day and feed 700+ ball pythons live to see how many get bit ... it still stands.

-adam

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HAHA. Ok, Adam, I'll say unequivocably that I don't think you're lying at all. And, if you keep that close an eye on all those snakes then that's great and I believe you. I only called the "nary a bite or scratch" into question because it suggests that a rodent never even gets a chance. In the feedings I've witnessed a strike to the rear of the rodent gives it a small window of time to do something. Occasionally, it has the presence of mind to actually twist back and try to bite. No doubt, nearly every time I've seen this the retaliation is totally ineffective and is met by even more squeezing force. So, we'll rule ineffective bites/scratches out of the conversation.

I read your safe-feeding list and I have some things to add and/or question:

* Prey size definately has a huge impact. My carpet sustained several nasty rat bites when I was feeding him large rats. I switched to feeding him mediums and so far I have not noticed any new injuries. I make up for the change in size by occasionally feeding multple rats.

* I'm still debating the value of leaving everything in the cage. I can understand the value of leaving the snake's home undisturbed but I have noticed that poor strikes are more common when there are obstacles in the "kill-zone". My BP's eye scratch was from a small mouse that he took butt-first from around a corner. Because he had to pull the mouse back to get it to a point where he could constrict, it had more than average reaction time. The mouse used this time to double back and bite at my BP's face and eye.

My theory on this subject is that people with tubs tend to have simple cage layouts and perhaps overlook the effect of furniture in a decorative enclosure. In general, I think its easy for anybody giving advice to unknowingly assume that the snake's environment is the same as theirs.

* Does BP advice apply to bigger snakes? I'm leaning towards "no" on this. I think its true that a snake should always be able to overpower a smaller prey item. But, I don't think its true that it can prevent the rodent from retaliating 100% of the time. This is where the other part comes in: how well armored is the snake? I have not found it to be true that larger snakes are always proportionately more armored. Case in point: my 6' carpet has big, thick scales while my 10' olive has thin, fine scales even smaller than my BP. There is no doubt in my mind that the jumbo rats she eats could chew through her skin like paper (if they were live that is).


Cheers!

True that. I had a Burmese python that I had to feed large rats to. I fed him live at the time... he struck, and as he opened his mouth for the death blow, so did the rat, and the rat bit through the top of his head into his mouth. Yes, a hold from the head to the mouth.

I read everyone's responses, and there is a third option that I haven't heard anyone mention yet. There is F/T, there is dropping a live rodent in... then there's the not so pretty way of feeding your snake a live rodent that's... how should I say... incompasitated? It's a little icky for a beginner or the kind at heart, but the way I see it, that rat/mouse is going to die either way, so I'd rather not have a hole in my snakes.

Do I really need to describe how this is done, or do you get what I'm saying?

Ouchy! Did he recover OK?

I've considered stunned but I wonder about the value. One thing that I've heard alot about in other places is that F/T has a much lower parasite risk. If its not a true live feed then I know of no advantage to not going F/T - except that its a pain.

A number of people have said that the risk with stunning is that the rodent might wake up early and be really P.O.'d.

The other option I've considered is "de-arming" of the prey item. Of course, a little claw clipping is no big deal but when it comes to the teeth I can't think of anything that isn't too cruel or too risky.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

HAHA. Ok, Adam, I'll say unequivocably that I don't think you're lying at all. And, if you keep that close an eye on all those snakes then that's great and I believe you.

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Well color me lucky I guess. ;)

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I only called the "nary a bite or scratch" into question because it suggests that a rodent never even gets a chance. In the feedings I've witnessed a strike to the rear of the rodent gives it a small window of time to do something.

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The way I feed and have my animals dialed in, the rodent never does get a chance ... 99.99% of the time, my snakes lunge out of their tubs and snatch the rodent off of the tongs throwing coils around them so fast if you blink you'll miss it. Most of them have to be lifted back in to the tub because they are dangling in mid air wrapped around the rodent. I have less than a handful of animals that need to eat in the privacy of their own tubs with no one around and for them, reducing stress by leaving the enclosure in tact is critical.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

* I'm still debating the value of leaving everything in the cage. I can understand the value of leaving the snake's home undisturbed but I have noticed that poor strikes are more common when there are obstacles in the "kill-zone". My BP's eye scratch was from a small mouse that he took butt-first from around a corner. Because he had to pull the mouse back to get it to a point where he could constrict, it had more than average reaction time. The mouse used this time to double back and bite at my BP's face and eye.

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My guess would be that the problem is more about your "routine" than anything to do with "obstacles in the kill zone" ... your snake has evolved over millions of years to be one of the most efficient predators in the history of this planet ... things in it's way aren't a problem ... it's having live rodents thrown into it's environment unexpectedly that usually messes them up.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

My theory on this subject is that people with tubs tend to have simple cage layouts and perhaps overlook the effect of furniture in a decorative enclosure. In general, I think its easy for anybody giving advice to unknowingly assume that the snake's environment is the same as theirs.

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Why would you believe that I don't have snakes set up in decorative enclosures?

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Originally Posted by bearhart

* Does BP advice apply to bigger snakes?

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I have no idea ... I only work with ball pythons.

Your questions seem to be based all around things going wrong after the rodent is presented to the snake ... what I advocate is to prepare your snake in advance and there won't be any time for the rodent to do anything. If live feedings are done properly by the keeper, the rodent should be out of commision fractions of a second after being presented to the ball python. That's how I do it at least.

-adam

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Ouchy! Did he recover OK?

I've considered stunned but I wonder about the value. A number of people have said that the risk with stunning is that the rodent might wake up early and be really P.O.'d.

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The rat/mouse never has a chance to wake up early. I stun, then offer by tongs or fingers (in a glove) as they "twitch", and they'll strike and constrict. If they have no interest after about 20 seconds, I'll offer it to the next snake. I never let the rat/mouse out of my hands unless it's into the snake's mouth.

As for the bitten burmese, yeah, he recovered nicely. I didn't have to make him a helmet.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Well color me lucky I guess. ;)

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np. :-)

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The way I feed and have my animals dialed in, the rodent never does get a chance ... 99.99% of the time, my snakes lunge out of their tubs and snatch the rodent off of the tongs throwing coils around them so fast if you blink you'll miss it. Most of them have to be lifted back in to the tub because they are dangling in mid air wrapped around the rodent. I have less than a handful of animals that need to eat in the privacy of their own tubs with no one around and for them, reducing stress by leaving the enclosure in tact is critical.

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Interesting - off the tongs eh? Is this because of your routine and pre-scenting? I do a little bit of pre-scenting but I have limited it because I drop the rodent in and have had problems with my snakes striking the glass and/or screen top. However, they are always aware it's coming. Also, my BP isn't that aggressive. He doesn't require privacy but he's very much into waiting for the ambush.

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My guess would be that the problem is more about your "routine" than anything to do with "obstacles in the kill zone" ... your snake has evolved over millions of years to be one of the most efficient predators in the history of this planet ... things in it's way aren't a problem ... it's having live rodents thrown into it's environment unexpectedly that usually messes them up.

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See above. My other snakes (including my juvenile corn) have a "come and get it" attitude. This is not true with my Sep '06 BP. He's a great eater and has only refused a meal once.

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Why would you believe that I don't have snakes set up in decorative enclosures?

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I was speaking generally - I imagined you might.

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I have no idea ... I only work with ball pythons.

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Yea, I figured this. However, I added something about larger snakes because my point is about blanket claims around the safety of live feeding.

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Your questions seem to be based all around things going wrong after the rodent is presented to the snake ... what I advocate is to prepare your snake in advance and there won't be any time for the rodent to do anything. If live feedings are done properly by the keeper, the rodent should be out of commision fractions of a second after being presented to the ball python. That's how I do it at least.

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I would agree with this but I still feel like something is missing. I can buy that a snake taking a rodent off of the tongs is safer primarily because you are practially guaranteeing a strike on the front half of the prey's body. However, you didn't seem to think that this was key. I don't feed my snakes "un-awares" and so I still can't see what I'd be doing different from you.

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Originally Posted by bait4snake

The rat/mouse never has a chance to wake up early. I stun, then offer by tongs or fingers (in a glove) as they "twitch", and they'll strike and constrict. If they have no interest after about 20 seconds, I'll offer it to the next snake. I never let the rat/mouse out of my hands unless it's into the snake's mouth.

As for the bitten burmese, yeah, he recovered nicely. I didn't have to make him a helmet.

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How do you stun them?

It involves holding a tail, their head, and a hard surface.

Some may call it cruel... I'd rather not see another hole in any of my snakes... THAT'S cruel. Been there, done that. Like I said, the rat/mouse will be dead either way... I'm just helping along the process. You just need to have the stomach for it.

My snakes won't eat F/T consistently, so this is the way I go.

BTW, my method... zero chance of a snake injury.

What an interesting thread! I've never heard much about live feeding before, it's definitely been a bit eye-opening.

I personally feed f/t. I really dislike having breeding rats and mice in my house (even when we tried keeping them in the garage) and it's WAY cheaper for me to keep a freezer full of meals than to buy fresh and wiggling every time I feed.

I used to feed live occasionally, especially when I first had ball pythons and that's what they had been eating before I bought them, and they turned their noses up when I offered f/t. Also, if I couldn't get f/t for the boas in the right size at the pet store, I'd grab a live one and supervise very closely.

The last time I fed a live mouse to my ball pythons, it was to my little boy "Lizard". He struck, grabbed hard, and coiled, but the mouse managed to make about three puncture wounds along his back, and they just barely bled. It really scared me because I was right there, supervising with tongs just in case, but the head of the rodent was buried deep in coils and I couldn't see him getting bit. The wounds healed up quickly and there wasn't really any major problems other than him being a bit sore (I'm assuming) and me being a bit traumatized. None of the punctures left a scar.

I left him alone for a few weeks, dangled a f/t wean rat outside his hide, and he ate it and never looked back.

Really, though, it boils down to experience, technique, vigilance, and personal preference. There are definitely extremists on both ends of the spectrum out there. :P

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

WORD!! I would never feed a DEAD rodent to my snakes. They are not Voltures you know??

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Yeah, I think everyone knows that, they're not VULTURES either.

I feed mine f/t because it is more convenient for me. All my snakes have strong feeding responses as well and always constrict their prey. I have seen first hand pics of snakes that have been bitten by rats and don't want to subject my snakes to that, it's just not worth it.

I dont feel that my english is that good so I can sit and debate about the subject. But here is is video of my Fire male eating a mouse. I'm not saying that this is the right way, but this is the way I do it. I dont think that the snake is in any danger and theres not much to supervise :)
But whatever works for you!

http://s222.photobucket.com/albums/d...t=DSC00055.flv

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Originally Posted by mcavana

Well, so far 62 people have voted. 8 of these votes claimed scaring as a result of correctly feeding live. HOWEVER most of the people that voted this way broke the golden rule and talked about what has happened to other people... things they heard of.

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While it may not have been what OP wanted to hear, I think it was great information and I for one am happy that the 'golden rule' was broken!

Mistakes are going to happen to me, to you and to everybody else on this board. Why must I make the same mistake that somebody else has already made if they are willing to share what not to do?

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Originally Posted by bearhart

blanket claims around the safety of live feeding.

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I've never made any such "blanket" claim.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I don't feed my snakes "un-awares" and so I still can't see what I'd be doing different from you.

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Apparently a lot. Unfortunately, teaching someone to feed live the way that I do isn't something that can be done via messages on an internet forum. All I can say is that feeding live can be done safely ... I know this, because I do it ... week in and week out.

But, there is good news ... I'm in the process of filming a video called "8 Ball Pythons - Feeding Day" that will show me feeding tons and tons of ball pythons and my 'method' for getting it done. Keep an eye out on my YouTube page for it ... shouldn't be long now ...

8 Ball on YouTube

-adam

I feed live. Much easier than f/t. My snakes also have much better feeding responses now. When feeding live I believe the health and condition of the feeder is important as well as the keepers experience.

Ball pythons are coddled WAY too much. Do you people not recieve cuts and scratches in your everyday life? Do you not have a dog or cat? I mean most of you act as if the snake gets bite and its over. Put some ointment on, and move on. If fed responsibily that shouldn't happen though.

Do any of you will snakes getting bitten try to intervene? I just stick my feeding tongs in the feeders mouth if they get a bad strike. Only had to do it once so far.

100+ rodents fed, 0 cuts or bleedings, 1 intervention.

It's true, I think that if a snake does get scratched, it's not the end of the world. My WC girl has scars and marks all over her... but she is healthy as a horse.

Well, I don't have pictures but I will share my experience..........

I don't feed live anymore because I had two bad experiences. Neither one had anything to do with leaving rats in with the snakes.

Incident No. 1 - I was feeding a 5' female woma a live medium rat using tongs. She struck the rat immediately but instead on constricting it, she pinned it against the side of the enclosure with a coil. This is fairly normal behavior for a woma. As I reached in to grab the rat and re-offer it to her in an effort to get her to constrict it the rat bit her hard - drawing blood and putting a good size divot in her.

Again, the rat was not dropped in there and the second I saw she was pinning it, I stepped in to remove it. It happened lightning fast.

Incident No. 2 - Feeding a small rat to a 3' yellow tailed cribo. Again, using tongs and offering head first. Cribo strikes but rat bites the inside of the snake's mouth as the snake is drawing it back into the enclosure. The cribo begins to slam the rat against the sides of the enclosure finally killing the rat but in the process, gets three bad bites to the tissue inside his mouth.

Point is, these things happen. I have no doubt that some people have done this thousands of times without incident. I've been keeping snakes for 22 years and have not only experienced it but have seen other knowledgeable and responsible owners have the occassional issue.

Another point here - many people here keep snakes other than ball pythons. Aspidites and Drymarchon species are perfect examples of snakes that may be more prone to injuries from rodents because they don't necessarily constrict their prey.

If people feed live and prefer it - well, it obviously works for them and that's fine and dandy. However, to answer the OP's questions - it's not an old wives tale. Serious injuries can and do happen to snakes during live feedings even when their keepers do everything by the book.

My GF had a BP, and she says that it died because it refused to eat, due to she fed it live once, the rodent bit it, and I guess it turned it away from eating. I feed mine live, ive seen small spots where he was bitten, but nothing major, and he still eats. So I dont know.:confused:

I've been feeding live for five years now without problems.

Both of my balls when I first got them (i got them both less around 3-4 months old) did bite the wrong end of a mouse at one point and got bit back. The skin broke on one but did not bleed and the other didnt even break the skin. Since then neither have been bit.

On the other hand my old roommate (who thought he was an expert with reptiles) fed his 4 ft ball one large rat a month. On more than one occasion he went 2 months without feeding it and thought it was super hungry so he gave him 2 large rats at the same time. He NEVER once at the 2nd rat but I think he did this at least 4 times. One time he left the extra rat in overnight and when he checked on the snake 2 very large portions of its back had been eaten. I didnt know him at the time, Ive only seen the massive ugly scars. He didnt try to treat it or take it to the vet, just left it alone to heal. Im suprised this only happened once. Anyways the snake has now passed do to improper care (no heat, he thought fluorescent light was enough, no humidity, he figured since it was from africa why should it need humidity). I dont talk to him anymore but I hope he doesnt get one again.

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Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

I feed live. Much easier than f/t. My snakes also have much better feeding responses now. When feeding live I believe the health and condition of the feeder is important as well as the keepers experience.

Ball pythons are coddled WAY too much. Do you people not recieve cuts and scratches in your everyday life? Do you not have a dog or cat? I mean most of you act as if the snake gets bite and its over. Put some ointment on, and move on. If fed responsibily that shouldn't happen though.

Do any of you will snakes getting bitten try to intervene? I just stick my feeding tongs in the feeders mouth if they get a bad strike. Only had to do it once so far.

100+ rodents fed, 0 cuts or bleedings, 1 intervention.

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Sweet post...

I feed all my BP's live - rats - mice - ASF's and have for years...I have had a few bites (no scarring) and scatches but no major problems that required intervention...I won't feed any snake over a live medium rat - But that's just me...Do what works for you and to each their own...

BT

I use to feed f/t and it was a pain and half the time my bp turned his nose up @ it. And I didn't blame him...ugh it was disgusting.
Since I switched to live not a problem. All three of my younger bp's have been getting live mice since they day I brought them home from the breeder.
I tend to keep a little more of a watchful eye when switching from mice to rats until the bp becomes use to the larger prey size.
I have had a couple scratches from the rats little claws but nothing that ever broke the skin.

I mean really they are wild animals even if captive breed and born. They don't have their instincts breed out of them.
In the wild they don't eat f/t they eat live and seem to carry on and make it. I don't get the whole f/t live debate.
I figure it came out of someone who was not a responsible feeder.

I agree that some tend to make this a whole lot harder than it really is. Sometimes way to much thinking put in to it rather than just tending to the task at hand.

Excellent post Jody! Especially this bit....

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Originally Posted by jotay

I agree that some tend to make this a whole lot harder than it really is. Sometimes way to much thinking put in to it rather than just tending to the task at hand.

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Like you I think common sense, knowing your snake(s) and just trusting your own instincts as a keeper are some of the best things you can do. :)

Live is easier for me.

As long as you are vigilant, on top of things, and can pay attention when there is something amiss, there should be no problems.

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Ball pythons are coddled WAY too much. Do you people not recieve cuts and scratches in your everyday life? Do you not have a dog or cat? I mean most of you act as if the snake gets bite and its over. Put some ointment on, and move on. If fed responsibily that shouldn't happen though.

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Right on.

I used to a firm follower of the F/T church, and subscribing to the belief that feeding live means certain death for any snake. But I wisened up. Snakes deal with live prey in nature. Why should it be an issue in captivity? (shrugs)

Most animals, unless they don't take well to captivity (or domestication), have much shorter lifespans "in the wild" - just like people.

Snakes are eaten by predators in the wild. Snakes are subject to abnormal weather conditions in the wild. Snakes starve in the wild. Snakes get ticks in the wild. Snakes get diseases in the wild. And, snakes get injured by their prey in the wild.

Saying "snakes eat live prey in the wild" is true but I don't think it necessarily means its not dangerous.

I suppose it also depends on what you consider "dangerous". If somebody isn't bothered by a few small scars, and is able to get the snake proper care in case of an infection, then live feeding would be considered as dangerous to them.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I've never made any such "blanket" claim.



Apparently a lot. Unfortunately, teaching someone to feed live the way that I do isn't something that can be done via messages on an internet forum. All I can say is that feeding live can be done safely ... I know this, because I do it ... week in and week out.

But, there is good news ... I'm in the process of filming a video called "8 Ball Pythons - Feeding Day" that will show me feeding tons and tons of ball pythons and my 'method' for getting it done. Keep an eye out on my YouTube page for it ... shouldn't be long now ...

8 Ball on YouTube

-adam

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Looking forward to your video Adam!!

My Burm and my Ball will readily take either. I've been out of frozen, and it's usually more convenient to stop by the close LPS and grab a couple of live critters than it is to drive way over on the other side of town where the frozen goods are.

Personally, I haven't had a rodent bite my snakes yet. I try to pay close attention when they initially grab and begin constricting, to see the position of the rodent's mouth, and if it would pose a threat to my babies...so far, so good!!

:2cent:

Just an afterthought: I think I read somewhere before that sometimes, you can "scent" the feeding enclosure some how? Something along the lines of putting the box with the live rodent on top of the screen? Something so that the snake "knows" it's fixing to be feeding time...I don't think that was mentioned in this thread.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Most animals, unless they don't take well to captivity (or domestication), have much shorter lifespans "in the wild" - just like people.

Snakes are eaten by predators in the wild. Snakes are subject to abnormal weather conditions in the wild. Snakes starve in the wild. Snakes get ticks in the wild. Snakes get diseases in the wild. And, snakes get injured by their prey in the wild.

Saying "snakes eat live prey in the wild" is true but I don't think it necessarily means its not dangerous.

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Can't speak for anyone else, but out of all the WC snakes (ballpark of around 1000) I've come across over the past 14 yrs, only a handful had any kind of skin blemish or scarring. And thats not to say that of all the scarred ones, each injury had come from a prey item. Coulda been something else.

Just putting that out there...

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Originally Posted by Ophiuchus

Can't speak for anyone else, but out of all the WC snakes (ballpark of around 1000) I've come across over the past 14 yrs, only a handful had any kind of skin blemish or scarring. And thats not to say that of all the scarred ones, each injury had come from a prey item. Coulda been something else.

Just putting that out there...

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That also doesn't account for the ones that you never saw because they died from the initial injuries or secondary infections. I took all my snakes into the vet for wellness checks a couple of weeks ago and he asked me about the scars on my carpet. I told him I fed him live prey and he mentioned F/T and then went on to tell me that they has gotten some boas in with nasty infections from bites.

But, your experience is interesting nonetheless. Its funny because when somebody tells about how their snake was bitten the usual response is "How big was the rodent?" - of course implying that it may have been the keeper's mistake of feeding an overly large prey item. But somehow I don't think that snakes are that picky in the wild. They are certainly known to take very large prey for their size.

Perhaps it has to do with the actual prey items. Mice are one thing but I wonder how often the larger snakes actually eat big rats. Perhaps there are other prey available that aren't as effective in retaliating.

Perhaps it has to do with the artificial boundaries of the cage affecting the snake's movement.

I wonder if anybody has ever done a study on snake mortality in the wild. It would be an interesting read - perhaps I'll search for that today if I have time.

Cheers!


I would say that balls would tend to have fewer

When I bought my BP, I had a month before I picked him up, so I asked for the breeder to switch him from live to F/T for me. Auryn had been feeding live. When I picked him out (I had many options!), I went in person and I noticed he had two scars on his back from what must have been bites from old feedings. I know that he was being fed mice. After a year with me and several sheds, his scars are much less noticeable. The breeder I bought him from are people I respect and who are respected in the industry. They certainly know how to feed their animals--but, an injury obviously happened.

I'm not sure if it happening to my snake at the breeder's before I bought him counts as second-hand. But whatever. I chose to switch him to F/T because:
A> He will eat F/T without a problem
B> It's more convenient and cost effective for a college student with only one snake to keep F/T on hand instead of breeding/buying mice.

Over the summer when I ran out of F/T (and refuse to feed the PetCo F/T), I fed him live twice without a problem. I don't have anything against the people who do feed live. I also don't think that we should tell them that they're incompetent if an accident happened in the split second it took for their snake to grab prey wrong.

The day I picked Auryn out, we snapped some pictures. His scales are shiny, so the scars are a little harder to see. There was one very obvious one, and another smaller one a little farther up. Up close, they look like little puckers in his skin. But, as I said, they're better now. These photos were from a year ago :)

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r...t/DSCF0041.jpg

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r...t/DSCF0042.jpg

The scars are to the right of the big blushing spot (I call it his "vampire bite :D)--the less noticeable one is first, and then in the next little spot on his back is the more noticeable one.

In my opinion mice are more dangerous than rats. I say this because a harmless rat pup is the size of an adult mouse. Yet an adult mouse is much more aggressive and protective.

I prefer live, and when done correctly is generally safe. Correctly means correct size, nothing bigger than a small rat for an adult. Anything close to medium(for big, big girls) I usually pre kill using CO2

To me the biggest advantage for prekilled is no escapees AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! It happens:tears:

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

To me the biggest advantage for prekilled is no escapees AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! It happens:tears:

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:rofl:

Karl: Hey babe, what's up?

Me: (frustrated tone) I've just had an accident!!!!

Karl: Are you ok?

Me: Not that kind of accident, I tipped over the rat enclosures and 3 week old babies when everywhere!!! I think I got them all through

Karl:...........dead silence..............what do you mean you THINK you got them all???? Don't you know how many there were????

That was a fun day!

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Originally Posted by rabernet

:rofl:

Karl: Hey babe, what's up?

Me: (frustrated tone) I've just had an accident!!!!

Karl: Are you ok?

Me: Not that kind of accident, I tipped over the rat enclosures and 3 week old babies when everywhere!!! I think I got them all through

Karl:...........dead silence..............what do you mean you THINK you got them all???? Don't you know how many there were????

That was a fun day!

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LOL, that's great!! Sounds alot like the conversation I had with my husband when I tipped over a huge bin of hissing cockroaches!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

:rofl:

Karl: Hey babe, what's up?

Me: (frustrated tone) I've just had an accident!!!!

Karl: Are you ok?

Me: Not that kind of accident, I tipped over the rat enclosures and 3 week old babies when everywhere!!! I think I got them all through

Karl:...........dead silence..............what do you mean you THINK you got them all???? Don't you know how many there were????

That was a fun day!

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if there was a possablility of a mouse on the loose, i would be shot dead. no questions asked!

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Originally Posted by ChAMOUFLAGED

LOL, that's great!! Sounds alot like the conversation I had with my husband when I tipped over a huge bin of hissing cockroaches!

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Lordy if there were hissing cockroaches loose in my house, I'd be heading for the nearest motel. I will happily wrange snakes all day long but I'm a total wuss about big bugs. :O

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Lordy if there were hissing cockroaches loose in my house, I'd be heading for the nearest motel. I will happily wrange snakes all day long but I'm a total wuss about big bugs. :O

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And you would head for a Motel?? OMG!! lol..

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

And you would head for a Motel?? OMG!! lol..

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:whisper: Just humor her John and nod your head, then back very slowly out of the room. Bless her heart, she doesn't know any better. :P

Omg HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, I never realized how that would be. Shows what happens when I post tired (or that I stay at the nicer places :P)