Colony Collapse - Food Tainted

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Heres my two cents, Sean was having an issue with a Purina food, lost 300 rats. I get a new shipment of Purina food and in 24 hours 7 of mine die.

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Perhaps there is a connection, perhaps not. You lost 7 rats in 24 hours. He lost his rats over the course of weeks. You fed a Purina product. He fed a product that was formulated at a small mill that happens to have an affiliation of some sort with Purina. There simply has not been enough information provided here to conclude a cause/effect relationship.

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It is also easy to say some one is over reacting when your on the other side of the story with no issues, not having to worry about how if all your breeder rats die how will you feed 20+adult ball pythons and an unknown number of hatchling at 2.50 a rat and still replace you 100 + 300 lost rats and time building you colony back.

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I'm not "on the other side of the story." I have hundreds of ball pythons, boas, and carpet pythons that I have to worry about feeding day in and day out...but I'll do my best to relate to where you're coming from. :rolleyes:

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Yes a risk like handing a gun to a child is a risk. Driving drunk is a risk. Swimming in shark infested waters is a risk.

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Those examples of "risks," within the context of this conversation, are just silly. :rolleyes:

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Risks are something that once made aware of, people tend to go out of their way to avoid. Saying I don't want to knowingly feed my rats a possibly contaminated food and letting others that might also benefit from my loss know of the risk is not over reacting its called being aware of my responsibility's as a rat breeder and doing what I can to ensure the well being of animals I have taken in to my care.

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You're right about one thing...you have a responsibility to your animals to look out for their welfare. However, as I have already stated, there is limited evidence (at best) to suggest that any of Purina's product lines are contaminated...let alone all of them. In case you forgot, "Purina" didn't make the rodent chow that lord jackel fed his rats.

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Originally Posted by Dr Owens

In case you forgot, "Purina" didn't make the rodent chow that lord jackel fed his rats.

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

Purina foods is doing the testing...as my supplier is owned by them.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

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Originally Posted by Dr Owens

In case you forgot, "Purina" didn't make the rodent chow that lord jackel fed his rats.

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

Purina foods is doing the testing...as my supplier is owned by them.

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Ok...I think that some of the disconnect here is based on a lack of understanding of how the milling industry works. Nestle Purina has a number of pet product processing plants located throughout the country. These plants produce the majority of their pet foods (of all types). However, they also own, or have affiliations with, dozens of smaller mills throughout the country that produce products of all types...some for Purina, and some for other companies, or even (as in this case) individuals. To say that "Purina" produced the rat food in question, while it may be technically accurate, is not the same thing as saying that it was produced by the mill that manufactures LabDiet, and Mazuri rodent chow.

So...unless you can tell me that lord jackel had his rodent food produced in the PMI Nutrition International plant located in Richmond, Indiana (where both Mazuri rodent chow, and LabDiet are manufactured), then you can not draw a connection between what he fed his animals, and the products produced in that plant.

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Originally Posted by Dr Owens

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So...unless you can tell me that lord jackel had his rodent food produced in the PMI Nutrition International plant located in Richmond, Indiana (where both Mazuri rodent chow, and LabDiet are manufactured), then you can not draw a connection between what he fed his animals, and the products produced in that plant.

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I agree 100%

But we also don't know that the tainted Koran soybean meal that was use purchased by Purina, and use at Purina plat to produce Seans rat food wasn't also purchased and shipped to the Purina plant that Muzari rat food plant. Sounds right to me company buys cheapest meal from one supplier and that who they use when they buy soybean meal. I can almost guarantee... in fact I'd bet my pay check for a year says that soybean meal was not purchased and used for the sole reason of making Seans rat food and only distributed to him.

But lets say that they did and Sean is the only one out of all the products that meal was used in out of all the mills Purina owns that Sean got the only bad Soybean meal. It is still one more thing in a long line of issues of Purina having contaminate products in there food and costing animal lives.

Also if Purina wants to put their name on it regardless of who produced it they are responsible. GM makes loads of different brands of cars and truck.. If tomorrow Cadillac SUV's started blowing up because of faulty fuel pumps and then later Buicks doing the same thing. Can GM say oh well the two weren't related cause this car was made in this Cadillac plant by this maker and this SUV was made in this plant by Buick?

In the end people just need to watch and if you start seeing animals dies see what kind of food you are feeding not asking for a witch hunt just a weather eye.

Still don't understand how you see no risk. There is a chance, though limited. He has much invested into his colony, he doesn't want to take a risk, and informs others to watch their own rats for sickness or death.

These two circumstances may be totally unrelated, regardless, he just bought mazuri, and some of his rats are dead.

You may not be able to affirmatively draw the connections based on what little data he has presented, but you cannot just dismiss it either. That's what I personally have been saying this whole time.

We aren't inciting riots, we didnt even say Purina's whole chow line is condemned and tainted, but I think the closeness of the two incidents, and the parent company for both being Purina, there is enough to go on to limit or supervise the rats closer than normal.

It's all under investigation to find out what the cause is, but it sounds like your trying to dissuade people from having concerns. It's OK to have concerns about your feed. It's OK to tell others to monitor their own animals. All this thread has ever been was a big concerning note to others.

wow....looks like some people have a problem here, I WILL STAY OUT OF IT.

I'm so sorry to hear of your loss Lord Jackel, and to all those who have suffered from the same experience, my condolences.

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Originally Posted by Dr Owens

So...unless you can tell me that lord jackel had his rodent food produced in the PMI Nutrition International plant located in Richmond, Indiana (where both Mazuri rodent chow, and LabDiet are manufactured), then you can not draw a connection between what he fed his animals, and the products produced in that plant.

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PSSSSSTTT I'll give you three guesses where Sean lives

Here I'll help

unless he has moved
it starts with an "I" and ends in "ndiana"

:gj::gj::gj::gj::gj::gj:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Still don't understand how you see no risk.

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but it sounds like your trying to dissuade people from having concerns.

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That's not the case. No where did I say that there was no risk. What I said was that it seemed that people were jumping to conclusions about Purina's product lines. It's one thing to exercise caution, and it's quite another to make broad ASSumptions based on extremely limited information. That is my point.


btw, Sean, I'm really sorry that this happened to your animals. The whole thing sucks. I know that you don't know me, and I don't know where you're located, but if you're anywhere around my part of the country, I'd be more than happy to share some adult females with you in order to help you rebuild.

Wow, someone is a Purina representative.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

PSSSSSTTT I'll give you three guesses where Sean lives

Here I'll help

unless he has moved
it starts with an "I" and ends in "ndiana"

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That's interesting. Perhaps he'll also tell us where he had the food formulated. Depending on what he says, people might then have more reliable information upon which to draw conclusions, and then take any necessary precautions as that information indicates.

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Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

Wow, someone is a Purina representative.

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Yeah...ok. :rolleyes:

Hey Gang...Sorry I have been really busy with lots of travel so I haven't been able to post as much or as quickly as I normally could.

After catching up on this thread I am not sure why anyone would challenge or worry about some people being overly cautious...there is nothing wrong with that especially since there are so many unknowns. Remember it was all these "big" producers who claimed their pet foods were safe last year and they weren't involved to only later come back and try to play it off that they had tainted food. I never said PMI foods were bad, what I said was that my supplier was owned by PMI (what I was told on the phone - though maybe "owned" isn't a 100% accurate description of the relationship does it really matter?)

I purchase my food from Martin's Feed Mills a small mill owned/invested in/somehow related to/subsidiary of/ known by/whatever they want to call it PMI. When we first started to consider the fact that it could be the food we contacted PMI who has some connection to all or part of the grain/process that is used in the food I was buying (per the mill). PMI did the testing and made the determination of what was wrong. The food is based on Labdiets 5013 blend.

After I posted (originally never saying where my feed came from) Ed posted saying he was seeing unexplained deaths. RED FLAGS shoot up...he too is feeding a diet based on the same ingredients from potentially the same source. My posted recommendation - " stop feeding for a while or at least monitor your colony closely till we know more". In NO way did anyone post that PMI was to blame or that all their foods were bad...but why not be safe rather than sorry. Before Ed posted that his deaths stopped we didn't know if we had a wide spread food issue or not. That was the point of this thread just an FYI...once others started to notice issues and post - assumptions were made (none of which are bad - this is why we start threads so others know or at least are aware of ANY potential issues - even if none come out).

I am happy that Ed's wasn't a food issue but mine was and I shared that experience so others would know. I am sorry that some got hung up on who was to blame or making sure we didn't blame a company with a poor track record wrongly...but again I ask does it really matter if for a short time people pay more attention and look for any issues? Where is the harm in being vigilant toward our furry friends?

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

Hey Gang...Sorry I have been really busy with lots of travel so I haven't been able to post as much or as quickly as I normally could.

After catching up on this thread I am not sure why anyone would challenge or worry about some people being overly cautious...there is nothing wrong with that especially since there are so many unknowns. Remember it was all these "big" producers who claimed their pet foods were safe last year and they weren't involved to only later come back and try to play it off that they had tainted food. I never said PMI foods were bad, what I said was that my supplier was owned by PMI (what I was told on the phone - though maybe "owned" isn't a 100% accurate description of the relationship does it really matter?)

I purchase my food from Martin's Feed Mills a small mill owned/invested in/somehow related to/subsidiary of/ known by/whatever they want to call it PMI. When we first started to consider the fact that it could be the food we contacted PMI who has some connection to all or part of the grain/process that is used in the food I was buying (per the mill). PMI did the testing and made the determination of what was wrong. The food is based on Labdiets 5013 blend.

After I posted (originally never saying where my feed came from) Ed posted saying he was seeing unexplained deaths. RED FLAGS shoot up...he too is feeding a diet based on the same ingredients from potentially the same source. My posted recommendation - " stop feeding for a while or at least monitor your colony closely till we know more". In NO way did anyone post that PMI was to blame or that all their foods were bad...but why not be safe rather than sorry. Before Ed posted that his deaths stopped we didn't know if we had a wide spread food issue or not. That was the point of this thread just an FYI...once others started to notice issues and post - assumptions were made (none of which are bad - this is why we start threads so others know or at least are aware of ANY potential issues - even if none come out).

I am happy that Ed's wasn't a food issue but mine was and I shared that experience so others would know. I am sorry that some got hung up on who was to blame or making sure we didn't blame a company with a poor track record wrongly...but again I ask does it really matter if for a short time people pay more attention and look for any issues? Where is the harm in being vigilant toward our furry friends?

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Sean,
I don't have time to post much, but I wanted to say, 'thanks for the info." For what it's worth, I didn't take exception to anything you said. What I took issue with was some of the conclusions that people were jumping to based on the limited info that you shared. Posts like this:

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Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

When I worked at pet stores Purina was one of the "garbage" food brands out there. With all this formaldehyde stuff, it definitely makes me want to stay FAR FAR away.

What I want to know is why formaldehyde was in there.

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I'm not saying that Purina is the best company, or that they make the best pet foods on the market (albeit I am a fan of their Mazuri line foods, but most of their dog foods leave a little to be desired). What I'm saying is that it's unfair to blame them prematurely for something that may or may not have anything to do with them.

I just received an email from Purina.

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to csilvern12@gmail.com,
cc "Kramer, James" <JDKramer@landolakes.com>,
"Herlyn, Jeremey J." <Jeremey.Herlyn@purinamills.com>,
"Brown, Steven" <SCBrown@landolakes.com>,
"Featherston, Beth A." <Beth.Featherston@purinamills.com>,
"Rorabaugh, Matt T." <Matthew.Rorabaugh@purinamills.com>,
date Jan 17, 2008 2:58 PM
subject RE: Contact Purina Mills - www.purinamills.com

hide details 2:58 PM (59 minutes ago)



Reply


Connie, thank you for sharing your concerns with us. I am pretty sure, however, that we do not
obtain any ingredients from any Asian countries. I am copying management on this for verification
of this, and will have someone contact you to see about obtaining a sample of this feed for analysis.

Matt, please contact Connie regarding obtaining a sample of the feed in question. Thanks!


Carol Sharamitaro
Animal Care Specialist
800-227-8941
314-317-5153
fax: 314-317-5284

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Really thats intresting

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Really thats intresting

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I agree...that is counter to what I was told.

But I should qualify that I wasn't speaking to PMI but my supplier when I was told this.

Wonder if communication got crossed up or maybe the person just did know whether or not they got grain for Asia

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from Sharamitaro, Carol A. <Carol.Sharamitaro@purinamills.com>
to "Sharamitaro, Carol A." <Carol.Sharamitaro@purinamills.com>,
csilvern12@gmail.com,
cc "Kramer, James" <JDKramer@landolakes.com>,
"Herlyn, Jeremey J." <Jeremey.Herlyn@purinamills.com>,
"Brown, Steven" <SCBrown@landolakes.com>,
"Featherston, Beth A." <Beth.Featherston@purinamills.com>,
"Rorabaugh, Matt T." <Matthew.Rorabaugh@purinamills.com>,
date Jan 17, 2008 4:14 PM
subject RE: Contact Purina Mills - www.purinamills.com

hide details 4:14 PM (56 minutes ago)



Reply


Connie, I have been assured by our management that this rumor is not true. There apparently is some
blogging going on the internet saying that our product has been tainted with soybean meal imported
from Korea containing formaldehyde....this is not true.

If you have any further questions or concerns, please feel free to call me at the toll-free number listed
below.


Carol Sharamitaro
Animal Care Specialist
800-227-8941
314-317-5153
fax: 314-317-5284

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Clogging on the net...LOL

What about first hand like with Sean

And the last one...

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from Koutsos, Elizabeth <Liz.Koutsos@mazuri.com>
to csilvern12@gmail.com,
date Jan 17, 2008 3:32 PM
subject FW: Contact Purina Mills - www.purinamills.com

hide details 3:32 PM (2 hours ago)



Reply


Connie,

I am sorry to hear about the issues with rodent colonies! I am not familiar with formaldehyde issues with Asian-sourced soybean meal, but it is not an issue with our diets anyway, because all of our soybean (and other major ingredients) are sourced from the United States. I hope that this alleviates your concern with feeding Mazuri Rodent Diets, and I can assure you that we take your concerns very seriously. Thanks for your business, and please let me know if you have any other questions or concerns that I may address.

Sincerely,


Liz Koutsos, Ph.D.
Mazuri Exotic Animal Nutrition (www.mazuri.com)
Nutrition and Technical Services
Land O'Lakes, Inc.
Liz.Koutsos@mazuri.com

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Wonder if communication got crossed up or maybe the person just did know whether or not they got grain for Asia

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Very possible...and also I am not feeding a direct PMI product so what they are saying could very well be true...that is not to say other mills (operated, financed or whatever) don't import (like mine). It is also interesting that they say ALL their grains are domestic and we know that isn't true...since they were part of the big pet food recall last year due to imported tainted grains. :rolleyes:

Oh well time to move on...I have 30 rats now using a new batch of food and no deaths to date in about 2 weeks...so looks like the bad stuff is behind me. :D

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

Very possible...and also I am not feeding a direct PMI product so what they are saying could very well be true...that is not to say other mills (operated, financed or whatever) don't import (like mine). It is also interesting that they say ALL their grains are domestic and we know that isn't true...since they were part of the big pet food recall last year due to imported tainted grains. :rolleyes:

Oh well time to move on...I have 30 rats now using a new batch of food and no deaths to date in about 2 weeks...so looks like the bad stuff is behind me. :D

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Cool! Hope you can get everything back up to normal in a few months! good luck!:D

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

It is also interesting that they say ALL their grains are domestic and we know that isn't true...since they were part of the big pet food recall last year due to imported tainted grains. :rolleyes:

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No...they didn't import tainted grains. They imported wheat gluten, which is a manufactured product that was produced in China.

Quite frankly, it doesn't even make sense to say that a large company like Purina would import grain. There is more grain available, and for a lower price, in this country than anywhere in the world. Rice might be the only exception to this.

On 1/16/08 I sent the following email to Mazuri:

To whom it may concern,

I am a reptile breeder. I raise my own rodents to feed my snakes. I use Mazuri 6F5M30 rodent food exclusively.

It has recently been brought to my attention, that a thread on one of the internet reptile forums that I visit occasionally, has an active thread that at least implies that there may be a problem with Mazuri 6F5M30 rodent feed being contaminated with Formaldehyde. Would it be possible for you to have someone read the thread in question (I'm including a link to the thread) and respond with any information that you have available.

Thank you in advance for any help you can provide. Here is the link to the thread:

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=58962

Louis Kirkland
Cornerstone Reptiles

On 1/17/08 I received the following replies:

Hi Louis,

Thank you for your email and thank you for your business. We do appreciate your use of Mazuri Rodent 6F and expect it to be meeting and exceeding your needs. I will read the thread on the link you've sent and respond appropriately, but wanted to assure you up front that there is no formaldehyde in any of Mazuri diets. Once I read the thread I will provide interpretation to you.

Thank you again for your email and I'll be in touch soon.

Carrie

Carrie Kuball, M.S.
Mazuri Exotic Animal Nutrition


Mr. Kirkland,

Thank you for contacting Mazuri and sharing your concerns with us. We do not obtain any ingredients from Asian countries to manufacture Mazuri diets (the rumor being formaldehyde tainted soybean meal from an Asian country). I am copying the quality manager at our specialty manufacture facility for verification of this and will have someone contact you. Please let me know if you have any other questions.

Tricia A. Lutman
Marketing/Technical
Communications Manager
LabDiet/TestDiet/Mazuri

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Originally Posted by Dr Owens

They imported wheat gluten, which is a manufactured product that was produced in China.
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This is simply a technicality. Wheat gluten is a grain product to say they don't import is misleading. This would be like someone saying Tropicanna isn't real Orange Juice cause they use juice concentrate.

However, I agree with the PMI responses (and your earlier point) even Purina is assuming that we are saying Muzuri is tainted and in NO post so far has anyone said that. All the emails and calls to Purina were based on a supposition or trying to connect the dots between what happened to me (a custom made food NOT Muzuri)...and that Ed had some deaths and he DOES use Muzuri. As soon as it was determined his weren't a food issue it should have stopped this assumption.

On 1/18/08 I received the following email:

Good Morning Louis,

I have read the blog of emails regarding formaldehyde and have a few important points to bring up:

First of all and most importantly, Mazuri products are made with US based ingredients only. All ingredients in all Mazuri products are sourced in the US, nothing is imported. We may pay more for our ingredients being US based but by doing so, we know there are regulations in place and we avoid situations such as this one.

We take the manufacturing of our products very seriously and have extreme quality measures in place. We spend a fair bit of time and money testing testing each batch of ingredients being used and then the finished products we produce. After all, we are feeding highly endangered exotic animals and pets! (Many smaller companies making "custom" diets do not have the manufacturing knowledge required or the quality measures in place that we are able to have.)

Mazuri is the leading exotic animal nutrition company in the world for a reason. We take pride in our products and stand behind each ton of our very own manufactured feeds. Very few (if any other) exotic animal feed companies have the capability to manufacture feed. We have a strong team of in house nutritionists developing diets, doing research with many of the leading zoos, aquariums, and private collectors/breeders in the world, and we have our own manufacturing plants controlling the manufacturing of each diet we develop.

Unfortunately there are a lot of misconceptions regarding nutrition and animal feed out there. Thank you for taking the time to come to us with questions. Please let me know if you have any further concerns regarding our products. I'd be happy to help you.

Have a wonderful day.
Carrie

Carrie Kuball, M.S.
Mazuri Exotic Animal Nutrition

I gave everyone back their Mazuri after I got those emails. It's nearly impossible for me to feed Harlan, and I do like Mazuri. I'm confident in that each of our responses, I'm glad they got back to us as quickly as they did.

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Originally Posted by Louis Kirkland

On 1/18/08 I received the following email:

Good Morning Louis,

I have read the blog of emails regarding formaldehyde and have a few important points to bring up:

First of all and most importantly, Mazuri products are made with US based ingredients only. All ingredients in all Mazuri products are sourced in the US, nothing is imported. We may pay more for our ingredients being US based but by doing so, we know there are regulations in place and we avoid situations such as this one.

We take the manufacturing of our products very seriously and have extreme quality measures in place. We spend a fair bit of time and money testing testing each batch of ingredients being used and then the finished products we produce. After all, we are feeding highly endangered exotic animals and pets! (Many smaller companies making "custom" diets do not have the manufacturing knowledge required or the quality measures in place that we are able to have.)

Mazuri is the leading exotic animal nutrition company in the world for a reason. We take pride in our products and stand behind each ton of our very own manufactured feeds. Very few (if any other) exotic animal feed companies have the capability to manufacture feed. We have a strong team of in house nutritionists developing diets, doing research with many of the leading zoos, aquariums, and private collectors/breeders in the world, and we have our own manufacturing plants controlling the manufacturing of each diet we develop.

Unfortunately there are a lot of misconceptions regarding nutrition and animal feed out there. Thank you for taking the time to come to us with questions. Please let me know if you have any further concerns regarding our products. I'd be happy to help you.

Have a wonderful day.
Carrie

Carrie Kuball, M.S.
Mazuri Exotic Animal Nutrition

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Wow great talk up about their product.. Where did they address the fact that a mill owned by them produced a product tested by them showed resultes found by them to contain formaldehyde??

They didn't.. Sounded more like a sales pitch.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Wow great talk up about their product.. Where did they address the fact that a mill owned by them produced a product tested by them showed resultes found by them to contain formaldehyde??

They didn't.. Sounded more like a sales pitch.

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Ed...I would only caveat this by saying my info is via a call with the mill and what I was told. I could have gotten the sales pitch too - pass the buck sort of thing :rolleyes:. (Also, as came out earlier...I was able to figure out "owned" in this case isn't accurate there is some other relationship)

I think what PMI is and has been saying is that Muzuri is safe and well tested which wasn't really in question in the first place.

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

I think what PMI is and has been saying is that Muzuri is safe and well tested which wasn't really in question in the first place.

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Well I'll start feeding my 6f again and see what happens

Guys I think the original purpose of this thread has gotten lost somewhere. If I have contributed to this fact in any way I am sorry.
It was neither Sean's nor my intention to have people writing PMI asking questions or starting a panic of any kind. We were merely pointing out that Sean had issues with food and I also was having rats die in large numbers inexplicably while feeding a food that was related to the the food Sean was using, and that people should be cautious and watch their rats for any unusual or unexplained deaths and if you start seeing them die in large number look to the food as a reason.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Guys I think the original purpose of this thread has gotten lost somewhere. If I have contributed to this fact in any way I am sorry.
It was neither Sean's nor my intention to have people writing PMI asking questions or starting a panic of any kind. We were merely pointing out that Sean had issues with food and I also was having rats die in large numbers inexplicably while feeding a food that was related to the the food Sean was using, and that people should be cautious and watch their rats for any unusual or unexplained deaths and if you start seeing them die in large number look to the food as a reason.

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I agree Ed 100%. Dr. Owens had it right...It is one thing to be cautious and watch for potential problems because a couple people have issue (Ed and I - and my only goal in posting my story originally) It is quite different to start making connections (where they don't really exist - as I said several times I DO NOT FEED MUZURI) that lead to people contacting a manufacturer claiming their product is bad (which isn't said anywhere in this thread).

I for one think it is time for this thread to die.

I guess I still don't see how it's over reacting to contact a manufacturer to make sure your feed is ok. I posted my responses to help ease other people's minds as I have received good confirmation that Mazuri is A-OK. :)

How else should we have acted? Waiting for them to tell us it's okay without us taking any action to get the answer? We needed answers, and we got them. Simple ;)

As a matter of fact, I think they handled this really well.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I guess I still don't see how it's over reacting to contact a manufacturer to make sure your feed is ok. I posted my responses to help ease other people's minds as I have received good confirmation that Mazuri is A-OK. :)

How else should we have acted? Waiting for them to tell us it's okay without us taking any action to get the answer? We needed answers, and we got them. Simple ;)

As a matter of fact, I think they handled this really well.

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My apologies as we didn't explain it well enough. If you follow this thread closely it appears that some are "jumping to conclusions" that Muzuri is tainted...and as such they contacted PMI stating this. The concern is that Ed and I (the only ones who had any problems) don't feed Muzuri, and Ed came back very quickly and said it didn't look like feed was his issue at all. I agree with you that it isn't over-reacting to contact a manufacture to make sure their food is safe...but some are contacting them about a food that isn't in question. As Dr. Owens reminded everyone PMI makes tons of brands and foods so to go from my custom food to "Muzuri is tainted" is a long stretch...and one that Ed and I wanted to suggest backing off of.

We suggested caution and to watch your rats...not start contacting a 3rd party when you don't have any issues (PS...I am not saying this directly to you Connie just the thread posters in general).

I just didn't want to start a panic though that is what it appears I have done so I apologize , but rather tell what happened to me so everyone would know "IF" they had unexplained deaths pop up.

Hope this is a little clearer

Don't beat yourselves up, I don't think it caused a panic. I think maybe 4 other posters were concerned enough to post on this thread as well.

Over all, I think it's panned out well enough (even with the little back and forth banter that took up a few pages)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

As a matter of fact, I think they handled this really well.

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I agree!

I just received a call from a representative of Purina/Mazuri thanking me for my inquiry and inviting me to call them personally if I ever have any questions or concerns involving their product.

I am VERY impressed with the way they addressed my concerns.

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Originally Posted by Louis Kirkland

I agree!

I just received a call from a representative of Purina/Mazuri thanking me for my inquiry and inviting me to call them personally if I ever have any questions or concerns involving their product.

I am VERY impressed with the way they addressed my concerns.

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So did I, unfortunately I'm at work and couldn't take the call. But again, it shows something that they called directly to address our personal concerns.

You guys shouldn't be sorry, you shared meaningful information. To simply stop feeding a certain brand and ask the company some questions is hardly a panic. Purina looks like they handled very well, along with similar responses from two different representatives.

To have someones whole collection being wiped out is a pretty serious inccident and you guys shouldn't feel bad for sharing that info. You can never be too cautious sometimes.:gj:

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

This is simply a technicality. Wheat gluten is a grain product to say they don't import is misleading. This would be like someone saying Tropicanna isn't real Orange Juice cause they use juice concentrate.

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No...it's not a "technicality." It has been said several times that Purina imported "tainted grains." The implication being that if they did it once, then they could do it again. However, the simple fact is that they didn't import "tainted grains." What happened is they bought (through a supplier) a processed food product (wheat gluten) from a company whose production facility is in China.

To compare wheat gluten to orange juice concentrate simply illustrates that you don't understand what wheat gluten is. Wheat gluten is a manufactured food product that is derived from wheat, much like tofu is derived from soy beans. The melamine that was in the wheat gluten was introduced during the manufacturing process as a filler, and as a means by which to artificially (falsely) elevate the protein level in the product (melamine is very high in nitrogen)...this was an underhanded attempt by the Chinese company to lower their production costs (i.e. more protein, and more volume for less production expense.)

The purpose of wheat gluten in canned dog food is to act as a high protein filler and texturizing agent that is cheaper than animal by-product (i.e. it lowers production costs).

So, the bottom line is this...Purina did not, in either situation, "import tainted grains."

Once again, I do not work for Purina, nor do I have any sort of affiliation with them. I simply hate to see disinformation, and ASSumptions being passed off as fact. It is a pet peeve.

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

I agree Ed 100%. Dr. Owens had it right...It is one thing to be cautious and watch for potential problems because a couple people have issue (Ed and I - and my only goal in posting my story originally) It is quite different to start making connections (where they don't really exist - as I said several times I DO NOT FEED MUZURI) that lead to people contacting a manufacturer claiming their product is bad (which isn't said anywhere in this thread).

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Thank you for trying to straighten the conclusions that were (unfortunately) "jumped to."

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I for one think it is time for this thread to die.

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I agree.

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Originally Posted by Dr Owens

So, the bottom line is this...Purina did not, in either situation, "import tainted grains."

Once again, I do not work for Purina, nor do I have any sort of affiliation with them. I simply hate to see disinformation, and ASSumptions being passed off as fact. It is a pet peeve.

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Okay, still have a problem with this response...

The disinformation? Please explain, what information was "made up" in this thread?

Where were any assumptions ever being passed off as fact?

It's great that you've been the herald of positive thinking in this entire thread (considering that the food scare was over at page 5)

You jumped in after all was 'almost' said and done to tell us we're fools for taking it a little more seriously than you'd like.

I still stand by the fact, that if Purina's name was being tossed around after Ed's post about his colony, we had every reason to contact them about it, if only to straighten things out.

Try to ease off the 'I told you so' when in light of the situation, you never brought us anything more concrete other than the chances were "slim at best" that both Ed and Sean got something of the same ingredients in both of their feeds.

It was a great idea, not like I hadn't thought about it and teased it, but trying to ease our concerns by telling us that we shouldn't 'jump to conclusions' (still, don't know how we did in this case) probably didn't come off as you had liked.

With as little information as was posted, even the most objective mind would find it difficult to not connect a few dots. At least, not until some other fact was brought forward to convince us otherwise. (i.e. The several emails and calls from Purina)

Again, very positive and thinking 'glass half full thoughts' towards the situation, even if it didn't have as much tact as it probably could have, it is okay to state what you think is important.

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Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

When I worked at pet stores Purina was one of the "garbage" food brands out there. With all this formaldehyde stuff, it definitely makes me want to stay FAR FAR away.

What I want to know is why formaldehyde was in there.

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I also hear lots of bad comments on Purina, which makes me feel uneasy to find out from this thread that they own Mazuri. Because I had consider Mazuri to be the best pet feeds in the market.:confused::confused: