Is it ok if my bp eats a live mouse, live?

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In my opinion, if you are responsible for the ending of a life, you should not flinch from looking the creature in the eye and doing it yourself.

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So I'm wondering how you reconcile this when you buy your meat at the grocery store?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Most of the reasoning I've seen behind its being considered inhumane has to do with people screwing it up, and not with its ability to painlessly kill the animal.

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I think that is exactly the point. Since you can't 100% guarantee that every "whack" won't be an instant kill (either by you or by people attempting to emulate you) the damage (or potential damage) done to an animal that is "whacked" incorrectly is what I think is considered inhumane.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I guarantee live-feeding of rodents to snakes will become illegal

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I don't think that anyone can "guarantee" that?

Good subject and great discussion everyone!! :sweeet:

-adam

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Originally Posted by rabernet

So I'm wondering how you reconcile this when you buy your meat at the grocery store?

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LMAO! ... I do love a good steak! Goin to fire up the grill I think! Thanks for the great idea Robin!! :love:

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

LMAO! ... I do love a good steak! Goin to fire up the grill I think! Thanks for the great idea Robin!! :love:

-adam

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I hope you plan on looking that steak in the eye before you kill it!

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Originally Posted by AzureN1ght

I hope you plan on looking that steak in the eye before you kill it!

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You know, even though I spent six years on active duty in the USMC, these days I'm a changed man ... I'm a lover, no longer a killer Kim! :love: ;) :hump:

-adam

Look if you're going to keep snakes, you're going to have to deal with these issues and we've dealt with this ohhhhh...just a time or two here at BPNet.

Smacking a rodent on the head with a book or other similar methods is not humane, nor is it considered such by top labratories, by rodent feeder suppliers who make their living dealing with rodents nor by any reputable snake keeper I know or have spoken with. It is simply an inhumane short cut some take for reasons I've never fully understood.

I am not overstating my position when I say that I believe in respecting the prey that is the single most important item that keeps my snake alive. I can provide the most perfect housing, with the most perfect temps, clean their tubs every other minute, but without the rodents I raise to feed them.....I have 21 dead snakes.

Part of my respect for that prey animal is that I took the time - hours of searching for and reading labratory protocols, research by Brad Moon and others on the true mechanics of constriction, my own close observation of our three species of snakes we have here to understand the similarities and differences in their hunt styles along with reading and talking with others far more experienced than I who feed literally hundreds of snakes each week. When my husband and I made the decisions to breed rats, to create that living food for our snakes to feed live from, I made a conscious decision to do so with as much solid research as I could find. None of that research supports any concept of smacking rodents to death through means that leave far too much room for human error nor does it show that live feeding is in any way cruel or inhumane to the rodent, nor particularily unsafe for the snake.

My thoughts remain as they've always been - if you show little respect or understanding for the rodent that sustains your snake's life - you in turn disrespect and misunderstand your snake and their predator/prey dynamic. A dynamic that's been going on far, far longer than our intrusion into it.

I work for a vet, and I asked her about this today. (She loves small mammals by the way) Her thoughts on this is that if done correctly it is really no more cruel then feeding mice to snakes live.

"Stunning" is part of the process when some livestock is turned into meat for human consumption. It may be "inhumane" but the USDA considers it an acceptable way to treat livestock that is intended to be food. If that is not what a feeder mouse is then....I don't know what else to call it.

Note that the above argument applies to stunning done in the correct manner, not beating a mouse with a book or a shoe or a stick or putting it a bag and swinging it into a wall ect....

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Originally Posted by ArcticBlue

I work for a vet, and I asked her about this today. (She loves small mammals by the way) Her thoughts on this is that if done correctly it is really no more cruel then feeding mice to snakes live.

"Stunning" is part of the process when some livestock is turned into meat for human consumption. It may be "inhumane" but the USDA considers it an acceptable way to treat livestock that is intended to be food. If that is not what a feeder mouse is then....I don't know what else to call it.

Note that the above argument applies to stunning done in the correct manner, not beating a mouse with a book or a shoe or a stick or putting it a bag and swinging it into a wall ect....

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Ok, then how should you stunn a mouse? I was never really told how to btw.
But a quick hit and the mouse is gone..
Now, I feel like I said it wrong (hitting a mouse WITH a book) I hit the mouse ON my book.. ( Math book from school :D )

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Originally Posted by ArcticBlue

Note that the above argument applies to stunning done in the correct manner, not beating a mouse with a book or a shoe or a stick or putting it a bag and swinging it into a wall ect....

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Exactly! :clap:

-adam

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Here's another link that Joanna shared with me about constriction now being believed to stop the heart rather than suffocating the prey:


http://blogs.nationalgeographic.com/channel/blog/2006/01/explorer_supersnake.html

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I haven't finished reading through, but the cardiac arrest theory seems to be widely accepted in the scientific community. I read about it in the "Encyclopedia of Snakes."

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

As for the philosophy behind killing something yourself--that's more complex, and I certainly don't want to tread on toes over a personal belief issue. In my opinion, if you are responsible for the ending of a life, you should not flinch from looking the creature in the eye and doing it yourself. If you are keeping a carnivorous animal, then you're responsible for taking lives to feed it, whether you do it, or someone else does. I don't believe that passing the responsibility off to another person shows respect for the animal...quite the contrary. If you cannot take a life yourself, then you shouldn't be responsible for it being taken either. I also don't believe that allowing your pet to make the kill itself means you aren't responsible for the death.

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We feed F/T (we did live once to break a short fast). We have a dog and a cat, too, and I certainly wouldn't kill their dinner for them either.

I feed live. That said, sometimes I feed prekilled. I usually do this if I am feeding a rat that seems overly aggressive; it is pretty rare. Snakes have been constricting their own food since.. well, a lot of years ago, and they do it fine. I have a concrete floor, and I whack the rat against it and honestly, they always die on impact. If I were not completely confident in my ability to kill them instantly, I would never do this. I definately do Not condone stunning a prey item.. making the poor thing suffer incoherently through even a minute of time is horrible in my opinion. I see nothing different with me killing a rat for food, and an expert marksman taking a large deer with a single shot. In either case, a shoddy and unconfident killer is an insult to the prey item.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I see nothing different with me killing a rat for food, and an expert marksman taking a large deer with a single shot.

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The deer has a chance to get away...A trapped rat doesn't.

just sayin'

:cool:

I guess that that was a bad analogy. it is more like I should have compared the rat to a farmed animal, not a deer. Unless you bring into the equation those "canned hunts" where people pay big money and are guaranteed a deer.. but don't get me started on that topic! I am glad that you brought that up.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I am glad that you brought that up.

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:gj:

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Originally Posted by MelissaFlipski

I haven't finished reading through, but the cardiac arrest theory seems to be widely accepted in the scientific community. I read about it in the "Encyclopedia of Snakes."

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Just a few excerpts from articles you might be interested in Melissa.

The pressures of 6.1–30.9 kPa (46–232 mm Hg) exerted on small mammal prey by constricting snakes range from about half to over twice a mouse's systolic blood pressure, and are probably 10 times larger than the venous pressure. These high pressures probably kill mammalian prey by inducing immediate circulatory and cardiac arrest, rather than by suffocation alone.

(from a research paper authored by Brad Moon, Department of Biology, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI)

In this study, we measured constriction pressure of 5-175 kPa in 12 species and 30 individuals, which varied in diameter from 0.85-12.5 cm. Constriction pressure varied significantly with snake diameter and number of loops in the coil. The measured pressures are high enough to kill many kinds of prey animals by circulatory arrest or spinal fracture, both of which are faster than killing prey by suffocation alone, and therefore are probably safer for the constrictor.

(from Biology of the Boas and Pythons, Pp. 207-212, Brad R. Moon & Rita S. Mehta authors)

Suffocation is one common explanation for how coiling kills. But it takes about four minutes for a rat to die of asphyxiation, whereas a snake can constrict a rodent to death in just one.

(from Natural Curves - How Snakes Use Bending Skills, authored by Carl Zimmer)

For 30 prey capture sequences, the mean time required for striking at and encircling prey was 1.6 seconds.

(From Kinematics and Time Relations of Prey Capture by Gopher Snakes, a study undertaken by O. E. Greenwald where they used high speed film to capture constriction sequences)

Now that's Mother Nature at her best! :)

Sure, I would be perfectly willing to kill a cow for my steak. Alas, I cannot afford an entire cow, nor do I own a ranch, so the opportunity isn't available. I spoke of a willingness to do the deed yourself, though, not an adamant requirement for always doing it yourself. Same goes for dog and cat food. If I were raising livestock, I would butcher my own food. Since I'm not, I rely on others to do it--but I am WILLING to do it. I just put in an order with RodentPro, too, as I need some extras until my rodent colonies are well established.

If someone can explain what is inhumane about smacking a rodent over the head hard enough to cause a death so instantaneous that even reflex twitching is absent, I'll be listening. Not missing, or flinching, or failing to hit it right--but actually doing so correctly, which is remarkably easy to do.

Cervical dislocation, an approved method, involves grasping the rodent by the tail, placing a bar behind its head and pinning down its neck, and then yanking really hard. This seems far easier to screw up than a good hard smack over the head.

Instant brain death is pretty hard to top when it comes to humane ways to kill animals. Given a list of various methods of rodent death here, I know it's the one I would choose for myself. I would not want to be put down with carbon dioxide, have my neck broken, or be squeezed to death by a snake.

If someone isn't hitting a rodent hard enough to kill it, they're flinching. It doesn't take that much force to take out a mouse. I've never had a problem with one still breathing if I didn't intend it to be.
I question any veterinarian claiming that a constrictor's method of killing a rodent is humane. I also very highly doubt that they all agree on the issue. Veterinarian training doesn't automatically make a person's opinion on animals correct, or more valid. That depends entirely on the situation. If any individual vet's opinion was always completely trustworthy, then they would never disagree on anything.

Natural (which is a questionable term when you're dealing with feeding a domesticated rodent to a captive bred snake in a plastic tub) does not equal humane.

I think the reason people dislike the idea of whacking a mouse to kill it is simply because it seems brutal. That's actually apparently a consideration when it comes to dispatching livestock, too--more brutal methods are disfavored because they upset workers. I feel that CO2 is impractical when you're only killing one or two rodents in a day, and that cervical dislocation is actually less humane--because the rodent suffers frightening restraint before it dies, due to the bar placed at the back of its neck. I'm not particularly concerned with what vets have to say on the issue, unless they can show some hard evidence that rodents somehow feel pain after their brain has been smashed, but not after their neck has been broken.
I grit my teeth and get the job done.

What's ironic about all of this is the fact that obviously no one worries about things like death by dehydration in a glue-trap, death by broken spine in a spring-loaded mouse trap, or the horrible death due to hemorraging suffered by rodents that eat rat poison.

Compared with those very widely accepted methods of killing rodents, I think a whack over the head is beyond any shadow of a doubt quite humane. I see no reason to make a distinction between a domestic rodent and a wild one that's gotten the label of 'pest'.

The funny part about that is, when I lived in a place that had mice, I used live-traps to capture them, rather than any of those methods. :) I don't believe in causing death needlessly.

Brain trauma is approved as a means to dispatch livestock--a metal bolt through the brain, for example. This means that it is, in fact, considered a humane way to kill an animal. The SOLE reason it's not used for rodents has to do with some people flinching, and not hitting the animals hard enough, and also with the fact that laboratories generally need their rodents uncrushed. Since I don't have that problem, I am confident that the rodents I kill this way all die instantly, without emotional trauma or pain.

There seems to be some idea that I must be a cruel or brutal person, while those who feed live aren't...this is odd. lol I may be one of the few people in the world who will stab a pan fish through the brain before cleaning it.

I see people adamantly defending their decision to feed live. That's fine, but don't claim it's more humane than pre-killing the rodents...that's just silly. It's also completely beside the point. Different people have different views on the level of distress that it's acceptable to inflict on an animal that's destined to be food. They aren't wrong because they disagree with you. It's a personal choice based on personal beliefs.

I'm not better because I choose to feed f/t to everything as soon as I can get them to accept it. You're not better because you choose to feed live. The guy who feeds live is not better than the guy who smashes a rodent's skull in with a hard object first, or vice versa. A person feeding purchased f/t is not better than one that raises and kills their own rodents...or vice versa. None of these is a 'better' way of doing things, so long as our snakes are healthy and uninjured.

People seem to forget that the dead or stunned rodent is immediately constricted by the hungry snake. That pretty much precludes it waking up, since as has been claimed repeatedly, the squeezing knocks it out. If it's unconscious, it won't be feeling broken bones either. This all occurs in well under a minute. I've seen a constriction of a live, unstunned animal last twice that long, so I can't imagine why it would be considered less humane.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

If someone can explain what is inhumane about smacking a rodent over the head hard enough to cause a death so instantaneous that even reflex twitching is absent, I'll be listening. Not missing, or flinching, or failing to hit it right--but actually doing so correctly, which is remarkably easy to do.

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Just because it's "remarkably easy" for YOU to do, doesn't mean that it is "remarkably easy" for EVERYONE .... The point that that AVMA has made about "whacking" is that it is inhumane because if it is done INCORRECTLY, the rodent could be left still alive but in SEVERE pain. All you'd have to do is read around this very message board a little and you'll find threads posted by people that have "whacked" a rodent only to be shocked a few minutes later when it "wakes up" and is limping around the snakes enclosure.

If you have a specific methodology for "whacking" your rodents to death that works 100% of the time, good for you ... unfortunately, there are many many people that swing the animals around by the tail and knock them into a wall, place them in pillow cases and slam them on the ground, hit them with a book, or even throw them against something that aren't 100% successful 100% of the time ... those are the people and methods that have caused the AVMA to deem "whacking" inhumane.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

If you have a specific methodology for "whacking" your rodents to death that works 100% of the time, good for you ... unfortunately, there are many many people that swing the animals around by the tail and knock them into a wall, place them in pillow cases and slam them on the ground, hit them with a book, or even throw them against something that aren't 100% successful 100% of the time ... those are the people and methods that have caused the AVMA to deem "whacking" inhumane.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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That I would consider kinda' harsh...
On this topic, people have different opinions on feeding f/t, pre-killed or live.. so maybe we should just leave it at that?

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Originally Posted by BallPythonsRule

That I would consider kinda' harsh...

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How is what Adam said harsh??? what exactly is so harsh about his post?

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Originally Posted by BallPythonsRule

On this topic, people have different opinions on feeding f/t, pre-killed or live.. so maybe we should just leave it at that?

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And you are correct...Everybody does have different opinions so why is it that you think that he shouldn't post his...or anybody else for that matter.

Simple enough...If you don't like what you are reading..don't read it.


Hope this helps.

Memes

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On this topic, people have different opinions on feeding f/t, pre-killed or live.. so maybe we should just leave it at that?

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If no one discussed WHY their opinions differ... what would be the point of a forum at all?

Just curious...

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Just a few excerpts from articles you might be interested in Melissa.

The pressures of 6.1–30.9 kPa (46–232 mm Hg) exerted on small mammal prey by constricting snakes range from about half to over twice a mouse's systolic blood pressure, and are probably 10 times larger than the venous pressure. These high pressures probably kill mammalian prey by inducing immediate circulatory and cardiac arrest, rather than by suffocation alone.

(from a research paper authored by Brad Moon, Department of Biology, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI)

In this study, we measured constriction pressure of 5-175 kPa in 12 species and 30 individuals, which varied in diameter from 0.85-12.5 cm. Constriction pressure varied significantly with snake diameter and number of loops in the coil. The measured pressures are high enough to kill many kinds of prey animals by circulatory arrest or spinal fracture, both of which are faster than killing prey by suffocation alone, and therefore are probably safer for the constrictor.

(from Biology of the Boas and Pythons, Pp. 207-212, Brad R. Moon & Rita S. Mehta authors)

Suffocation is one common explanation for how coiling kills. But it takes about four minutes for a rat to die of asphyxiation, whereas a snake can constrict a rodent to death in just one.

(from Natural Curves - How Snakes Use Bending Skills, authored by Carl Zimmer)

For 30 prey capture sequences, the mean time required for striking at and encircling prey was 1.6 seconds.

(From Kinematics and Time Relations of Prey Capture by Gopher Snakes, a study undertaken by O. E. Greenwald where they used high speed film to capture constriction sequences)

Now that's Mother Nature at her best! :)

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Wow great post thanks for that.

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

If no one discussed WHY their opinions differ... what would be the point of a forum at all?

Just curious...

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This thread was just me asking if it's ok if my snake swallows a mouse live..
it now turned in to whats humane and what not... so dunno.

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Originally Posted by BallPythonsRule

That I would consider kinda' harsh...

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Originally Posted by BallPythonsRule

On this topic, people have different opinions on feeding f/t, pre-killed or live.. so maybe we should just leave it at that?

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so Adam is harsh :confuzd: .

How about you, what are you???

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To tell you guys the truth, to me, I don't care about the mouse's feelings when it's getting eaten, it's a mouse, it was going to die any way. I started hitting a mouse with a book to "stunn" it so it wouldn't bite my snake. Too bad for the mouse is all I can say.

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I would say cruel and inhumane!

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Originally Posted by GA_Ball_Pythons

so Adam is harsh :confuzd: .

How about you, what are you???

I would say cruel and inhumane!

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I then corrected that and said I hit the mouse on the book...
If you have a problem with that... good for you.
I didn't even say Adam is harsh.. I said the method he stated on whacking the mouse is harsh.. I def. don't do that..

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

If you have a specific methodology for "whacking" your rodents to death that works 100% of the time, good for you ... unfortunately, there are many many people that swing the animals around by the tail and knock them into a wall, place them in pillow cases and slam them on the ground, hit them with a book, or even throw them against something that aren't 100% successful 100% of the time ... those are the people and methods that have caused the AVMA to deem "whacking" inhumane.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Originally Posted by BallPythonsRule

This thread was just me asking if it's ok if my snake swallows a mouse live..
it now turned in to whats humane and what not... so dunno.

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No....this is grown ups having a discussion.

pull up a chair...your welcome to join.

:gj:

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Originally Posted by BallPythonsRule

To tell you guys the truth, to me, I don't care about the mouse's feelings when it's getting eaten, it's a mouse, it was going to die any way.

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That sounds pretty cruel to me... yes, it's going to die. But for what reason? To sustain your snake. That alone should give you enough respect for the feeder that you should care for it to have as painless a death as possible. Not to mention just being a humane person in general....


And yes, this is a discussion... This is how discussions work. Your answer was given within the first few posts, and the rest of the thread then continued on a similar topic. What's so wrong about that?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Just because it's "remarkably easy" for YOU to do, doesn't mean that it is "remarkably easy" for EVERYONE .... The point that that AVMA has made about "whacking" is that it is inhumane because if it is done INCORRECTLY, the rodent could be left still alive but in SEVERE pain. All you'd have to do is read around this very message board a little and you'll find threads posted by people that have "whacked" a rodent only to be shocked a few minutes later when it "wakes up" and is limping around the snakes enclosure.

If you have a specific methodology for "whacking" your rodents to death that works 100% of the time, good for you ... unfortunately, there are many many people that swing the animals around by the tail and knock them into a wall, place them in pillow cases and slam them on the ground, hit them with a book, or even throw them against something that aren't 100% successful 100% of the time ... those are the people and methods that have caused the AVMA to deem "whacking" inhumane.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Rep Troll

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Adam_Wysocki again.

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:rockon:

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

That sounds pretty cruel to me... yes, it's going to die. But for what reason? To sustain your snake. That alone should give you enough respect for the feeder that you should care for it to have as painless a death as possible. Not to mention just being a humane person in general....

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It seems like you're getting very "PETA" on me...
I have respect for feeders because they feed my snake.. other than that I have zero.. I hate rodents and that's just me..

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Originally Posted by BallPythonsRule

It seems like you're getting very "PETA" on me...

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That is a childish statement...I invited you personally to join in a "grown up" conversation.

;)

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Originally Posted by BallPythonsRule

I have respect for feeders because they feed my snake

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No...you don't.

and this is why...

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Originally Posted by BallPythonsRule

I hate rodents and that's just me..

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Do you realize what bad image people owning snakes are suffering from?
Do you really think that with comments such as this

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To tell you guys the truth, to me, I don't care about the mouse's feelings when it's getting eaten, it's a mouse, it was going to die any way. I started hitting a mouse with a book to "stunn" it so it wouldn't bite my snake. Too bad for the mouse is all I can say.

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people, will have a better image of snake owners?

Owning a snake requires a good comprehension of the prey/ predator dynamic and requires respecting the prey whether you like it or not.

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Originally Posted by GA_Ball_Pythons

Do you realize what bad image people owning snakes are suffering from?
Do you really think that with comments such as this
people, will have a better image of snake owners?

Owning a snake requires a good comprehension of the prey/ predator dynamic and requires respecting the prey whether you like it or not.

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I'm sorry that I'm not as passionate about rodents as some of you guys... that's just what I think. If I wouldn't have snakes I would have never touched any mice/rats. They are disgusting to me and that's all I have to say...

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Originally Posted by BallPythonsRule

I'm sorry that I'm not as passionate about rodents as some of you guys... that's just what I think. If I wouldn't have snakes I would have never touched any mice/rats. They are disgusting to me and that's all I have to say...

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Sorry, but I have to jump in here.... Doesn't that attitude parallell some people's hatred of snakes? Personally, I attempt to respect all animals whether I like them or not.

We tried humane traps for our pantry mice, but discovered that they just came running back in the house. We only went to inhumane methods once I couldn't stand the 3 a.m. gnawing that kept me awake. It's too bad we can't give "wild" mice to our BP. Then two problems would be solved.

FrankyKeno, thanks for all the references, etc. Great post!

O and I also wanted to add that those glue traps..do not cause dehydration.

What happens is the mouse tries to get on it to eat it cause it smells sweet and they become stuck...they try to push off with every body part and eventually their faces get stuck on them and they suffocate.

They are not really humane...they just don't leave a mess, they are small and fit under things like your fridge or stove and are easier to manage than a conventional mouse trap.

just sayin'

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Originally Posted by MelissaFlipski

Sorry, but I have to jump in here.... Doesn't that attitude parallell some people's hatred of snakes? Personally, I attempt to respect all animals whether I like them or not.

We tried humane traps for our pantry mice, but discovered that they just came running back in the house. We only went to inhumane methods once I couldn't stand the 3 a.m. gnawing that kept me awake. It's too bad we can't give "wild" mice to our BP. Then two problems would be solved.

FrankyKeno, thanks for all the references, etc. Great post!

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I guess it does... but I don't go into the woods (or outside my house) to find a mouse and kill it... I wouldn't do that to any animal.
I just hate rodents... not a phobia, I just can't stand them.. just like some people hate spiders or bugs.

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Originally Posted by BallPythonsRule

I'm sorry that I'm not as passionate about rodents as some of you guys... that's just what I think. If I wouldn't have snakes I would have never touched any mice/rats. They are disgusting to me and that's all I have to say...

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Did I talk about my passion for rodents in any of my post? :confuzd: .

All I talked about was your actions and statements that can only add to the bad image some have of snake owners.

Also for the record I am not passionate about rat and mice, I see them as food and not pets however this is not incompatible with having respect for them.

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Originally Posted by BallPythonsRule

It seems like you're getting very "PETA" on me...

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You obviously don't know much about PETA then... Any member of the PETA cult will gladly call me an evil, sadistic SOB because I feed live prey to my snake. Because apparently feeding live prey to a snake is "unnatural". :confuzd:

http://blog.peta.org/archives/bunny/

Aw, I peeled a mouse off of a glue trap once, and set it loose in a wooded area. (Not the easiest thing to do without injuring the mouse, btw). It was stuck by its butt. Its nose likely wouldn't have ever reached the glue.

I'm sure there are people who try to hit a rodent to kill it, and flinch--perhaps they're afraid of making a mess if they hit it too hard.
But really, if you hit a mouse with anything, including a book, hard enough, then it will be dead instantly without pain. It really is NOT difficult to apply sufficient force to do that. Yes, I am confident that I will kill the mouse 100% of the time. There might be a few overkill cases, but no underkill ones.
The snakes don't generally mind if their meal is a little flatter than usual.
Gruesome, but effective, and not at all inhumane.

And I still advocate and use stunning as part of the process of converting a stubbon snake over to eating f/t food. If it is marginally less humane than feeding live (due to the possibility of the animal waking--it isn't inhumane if the rodent doesn't wake up), then at least it's being done in the cause of reducing future inhumane killings of rodents by the snake itself. Not a black and white ethical issue. :)

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

You obviously don't know much about PETA then... Any member of the PETA cult will gladly call me an evil, sadistic SOB because I feed live prey to my snake. Because apparently feeding live prey to a snake is "unnatural". :confuzd:

http://blog.peta.org/archives/bunny/

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I know alot about PETA, It's just some of the statements were PETA-ish, with the attitude of some of the PETA members..

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Aw, I peeled a mouse off of a glue trap once, and set it loose in a wooded area. (Not the easiest thing to do without injuring the mouse, btw). It was stuck by its butt. Its nose likely wouldn't have ever reached the glue.

I'm sure there are people who try to hit a rodent to kill it, and flinch--perhaps they're afraid of making a mess if they hit it too hard.
But really, if you hit a mouse with anything, including a book, hard enough, then it will be dead instantly without pain. It really is NOT difficult to apply sufficient force to do that. Yes, I am confident that I will kill the mouse 100% of the time. There might be a few overkill cases, but no underkill ones.
The snakes don't generally mind if their meal is a little flatter than usual.
Gruesome, but effective, and not at all inhumane.

And I still advocate and use stunning as part of the process of converting a stubbon snake over to eating f/t food. If it is marginally less humane than feeding live (due to the possibility of the animal waking--it isn't inhumane if the rodent doesn't wake up), then at least it's being done in the cause of reducing future inhumane killings of rodents by the snake itself. Not a black and white ethical issue. :)

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Good post... :)

good rep comin' your way

Well, if we are going to get into a big discussion...the best way to feed is to use frozen/thawed mice or rats...that is the safest and most snakes will adjust to this if given the chance...

our baby balls ate sm mice (not pinkies) when they were babies...now, at about 3months-4 months, they are eating weaned rats...they can eat things that you wouldn't think they could...their jaws can open wider than seemingly possible!

Thanks!:carrot:

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Originally Posted by leoares27

Well, if we are going to get into a big discussion...the best way to feed is to use frozen/thawed mice or rats...

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I would have to disagree with you.

:)

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Originally Posted by leoares27

that is the safest

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says who? How?

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Originally Posted by leoares27

and most snakes will adjust to this if given the chance...

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How many have you converted?

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Well, if we are going to get into a big discussion...the best way to feed is to use frozen/thawed mice or rats...

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I will have to disagree with you too, live feeding can be perfectly safe and the bottom line is to be aware of your options, feed responsibly, and feed what works for the BP and is convenient for the owner.

There is not one way better than another and that come from someone feeding both ;) .

I cannot believe there are still people who will actually say that feeding f/t is not safer than feeding live.
But I do hope that subject doesn't hijack this thread.
:sabduel:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I cannot believe there are still people who will actually say that feeding f/t is not safer than feeding live.
But I do hope that subject doesn't hijack this thread.
:sabduel:

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If the bp is fed the proper sized meal it IS just as safe as feeding f/t.

:cool:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I cannot believe there are still people who will actually say that feeding f/t is not safer than feeding live.
But I do hope that subject doesn't hijack this thread.
:sabduel:

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And I cannot believe there is still people trying to make there way of feeding the way that everyone else should go by :confuzd:

Like I said before to each their own both can be perfectly safe, and it should be up to the owners to decide what is best for them based on the knowledge they have acquired rather than someone saying one is better than the other.

Snakes are made to kill and eat live prey. There really is no need to stun it.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

then at least it's being done in the cause of reducing future inhumane killings of rodents by the snake itself.

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What is inhumane about a natural process of predator vs. prey?

Well it's not very hard to realize that a F/T doesn't produce nearly as much threat to a snake as a live mouse/rat. Cmon people.. I thought we were intellegent adults.

As for MeMe's comment on the size of the rodent, it doesn't really matter. If your snake isn't hungry, the rodent (regardless of size) is going to come up and knaw on your snake at some point. That alone is enough proof to say that F/T is safer.

The debate should be whether or not it is humane. And in my opinion the debate on that is completely subjective, because everyone stands on different moral grounds.

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Originally Posted by chz

As for MeMe's comment on the size of the rodent, it doesn't really matter. If your snake isn't hungry, the rodent (regardless of size) is going to come up and knaw on your snake at some point. That alone is enough proof to say that F/T is safer.

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The ONLY time a rodent is going to come up and "GNAW on your snake at some point" is if you leave it in with your snake, unattended overnight with no access to food or water. A rodent doesn't go into an enclosure and go "oh, a snake, it hasn't eaten me, I think I'll go gnaw on it for the hell of it".