Lesser female and Butter Female Comparsion!

I only own one butter, but that thing is a growing machine. He is an 07 and is already larger than my 06 pinstripe and one of my 06 pastels. He doesn't get anymore food than anyone else does either. He always seems very hungry too.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Has anyone ever crossed a butter with a lesser and if so, what was produced?

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The tricky part, is breeding the BEL to a normal and figuring out what the offspring are. Because the Lessers and Butters appear so much alike, I doubt you'd be able to say whether the Lessers and Butters are genetically identical (and the "high yellow" of the Butter comes from selective breeding) or if they are alleles variations.

I used to like the Butters better, until I saw some really amazing Lessers. Since that point, I've determined (in MY opinion) Butters aren't worth the price they are commanding. Until I've seen irrefutable evidence suggesting that Butters are a different allele, then I'm moving back to the Lesser fan club :).

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Originally Posted by kavmon

raul, with all the lessers and butters that ralph has, did he mention anything about butters eating better than lessers? i think he has a big enough sample to get a general idea from.:D

i've actually got a spider female that is a picky eater. but i don't go around talking about poor eating spider females...:rolleyes:


vaughn

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I never asked him that question.

lesser get more green as they age

and butters keep there yelloiw and sometimes get brighter...

if you've never seen the two morphs side to side in real life you will never understand or see the difference between the two morphs...

pics are deciving and dont capture true colors so yea my :2cent:

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Originally Posted by lovepig78

lesser get more green as they age

and butters keep there yelloiw and sometimes get brighter...

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And I've seen the opposite. You put a greened-out butter against a high-yellow lesser and I'm not sure there are many people that will get it right. Again, this goes back to "buy the animal not the line". Butters are drastically ruducing in price now that everyone is seeing insignifigant differences between the combo morphs.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

And I've seen the opposite. You put a greened-out butter against a high-yellow lesser and I'm not sure there are many people that will get it right. Again, this goes back to "buy the animal not the line". Butters are drastically ruducing in price now that everyone is seeing insignifigant differences between the combo morphs.

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i agree justin!!:D


vaughn

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

Vaughn


It is easy for me to tell them apart as babies. They do vary as all snakes do. The Butters eat good for me especially in the female dept and I have had problems with the Lessers getting up to size. I am sure that you understand when you have a snake that you hatched and you really want it to grow because you want to breed it and make a special morph. In my case I want to hatch my own lucy's so the anticipation is killing me. My only regret is that I didn't hold back more Butter females from last year. As for what other people experience with the Butters and Lessers and feeding experiences I guess we are going to have to ask them. I know Ralph has both and I think that the Bells have both. I will ask Mark next weekend what he thinks.

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So let me get this straight, are you saying that not only do butters eat better than lessers, you are saying that the females eat better than all the rest? Do you have any hard data to back that up? I'm pretty sure the answer is "no"...in order for that claim to be legitimate, you'd need to do a full analysis on a sample size in the hundreds...otherwise...you're opinion on that is nothing more than an observation in your own experience...IMO...that's not such a good idea to do when you sell a butter to someone that ends up not eating well...

In my experience with balls, they all have their own distinct personalities, regardless of the morph/age/sex/whatever...how well they eat and grow are just two factors among many.

Furthermore, from what I've seen, the only people plugging butters as "better" than lessers are the ones who are also selling butters for a higher price than lessers. It'd be like NERD coming out and saying that their Lemon line eats better and grows faster than the Graziani line or vice versa. I'll come out and say that I'm 99% convinced that lessers and butters are the same thing, and anyone who is familiar with line breeding can understand why one might carry on distinctly different coloration over another.

Don't shoot...just thought you might value the opinion of a passionate consumer of ball python morphs. ;)

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

So let me get this straight, are you saying that not only do butters eat better than lessers, you are saying that the females eat better than all the rest? Do you have any hard data to back that up? I'm pretty sure the answer is "no"...in order for that claim to be legitimate, you'd need to do a full analysis on a sample size in the hundreds...otherwise...you're opinion on that is nothing more than an observation in your own experience...

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The Butters eat good for me especially in the female dept and I have had problems with the Lessers getting up to size.

Isn't it pretty clear he's talking about HIS experience? 99.9% of the time when statements are made on this site, it's about personal experience. Now I sincerely doubt Butters are better eaters than Lessers on the grand scale, but I don't have either. As such, my "opinion" is worth far less than his, because I simply don't know.

I would love to see someone with Butters and Lessers counter Brock's argument to ensure that it isn't really an issue. But, unless I'm mistaken, no one has commented here that have both Lessers and Butters... hopefully someone does, because I'd really like to see if this goes beyond Brocks experience.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

I would love to see someone with Butters and Lessers counter Brock's argument to ensure that it isn't really an issue. But, unless I'm mistaken, no one has commented here that have both Lessers and Butters... hopefully someone does, because I'd really like to see if this goes beyond Brocks experience.

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Even then, would it really matter for the person who buys a snake from him that expects to get a rodent vacuum...and ends up with a picky eater? I'm just saying it's not the best "move" to make for someone intent on selling morphs, that's all.

It's just reality that there are sellers out there that will say anything - this snake is more yellow, the females eat better, etc - to add value to a project.

Both of them look amazing Brock. Keep posting them pictures...

Brad



Even then, would it really matter for the person who buys a snake from him that expects to get a rodent vacuum...and ends up with a picky eater? I'm just saying it's not the best "move" to make for someone intent on selling morphs, that's all.

It's just reality that there are sellers out there that will say anything - this snake is more yellow, the females eat better, etc - to add value to a project.

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So I will say anything to make a sell huh? Interesting because I don't remember selling you a snake before and I am pretty sure that we haven't talked. I checked out your myspace page and then it all came clear to me where your motives lay. I give a opinion and you jump down my throat about it please come on! Grow up. People who have purchased Butters from me this year are very happy with them. They paid more from them then they would have a Lesser. That was their choice. No one made them do it! So what is your vested interest in all this and with your comments? Just a question.

Also I paid 30k for my male Butter at the end of 2005 when I already had a few Lessers in stock. There were a couple of big breeders that purchased Butters that year even when they had Lessers. Next year they are going to be priced just a little above Lessers anyway I can see that happening. If you don't want a Butter don't buy one! Now if you have Lessers for sale and you see me selling Butters and you think that they are the same thing go ahead and complain because in the end it is the customer who is right! It is their money to do with as they please! I know that every time I post here I will be attacked. Trust me it is rather amusing anymore. I was not out trying to make purchase a Butter just showing a comparison shot and then look what happens here on bP.net.

I do love that I will say anything comment. Have you ever been to a big snake show?

wow!
Brock

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Even then, would it really matter for the person who buys a snake from him that expects to get a rodent vacuum...and ends up with a picky eater? I'm just saying it's not the best "move" to make for someone intent on selling morphs, that's all.

It's just reality that there are sellers out there that will say anything - this snake is more yellow, the females eat better, etc - to add value to a project.

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Sure, but I haven't heard a complaint from any of Brock's customers. We can't be making judgements on what he tells his customers. Perhaps he forewarns them that Butters eat well for him, but his customers results may vary.

I don't know Brock. But I'm the type that lets a person make their own bed. I can't deny his claim, because I have no experience with Lessers or Butters. All I can say, is that if he tells his customers that Butters are great eaters, and a customer gets a picky eater, it's his bed to lay in. I don't know what he tells his customers... all I know, is that he says in HIS collection, Butters are better eaters. I have no reason NOT to take him at his word.

Motives? I don't understand how my myspace page would explain any "motives?" My only motive here is just to share my opinion on the comparison between lessers and butters! Isn't that what you started the thread for? Just because you don't like my opinion doesn't mean you have to jump down my throat either!

I was at Daytona this year...thanks for asking...it was a BLAST!

I wasn't jumping down your throat just disagreeing with your opinion last I heard I think that we can do that.


In Daytona what kind of shirt did you wear? That is a real question.

Brock

Checking my myspace page and asking what kind of clothes I wear is mildly disturbing. Can we stay on topic?

posting in an epic thread

let the panties fly!

I feel everyone has a right to their own opinion. At the end of the day it is up to what the customer wants. I dont believe that saying butters are more yellow than lessers is a marketing ploy, it is just an opinion!!!I think that butters typically add more color to a project. But that is just my opinion. To each their own!! See ya this weekend Brock try to stay out of trouble! Take care, Brad

The issue between butters and lessers...forced me to look into fires...and for now i prefer them.

I wish there was someway to differentiate butters/lessers/platinums/phantoms/mojaves...those are all i can think of wit the same super form

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Originally Posted by mricyfire

The issue between butters and lessers...forced me to look into fires...and for now i prefer them.

I wish there was someway to differentiate butters/lessers/platinums/phantoms/mojaves...those are all i can think of wit the same super form

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I don't get any of this post.

What do Fires have to do with Butters and Lessers?

How do all of those you mentioned have the same super form?

Let me expand on that last post. There has only been 1 Black Eyed Lucy produced that doesn't have some coloring on it. The Super Phantom is nothing like a Butter x Butter or Lesser x Lesser Blue Eyed Lucy. Super Mojaves don't even compare in my opinion.

Hi,


Jamie,


Can I ask your opinion on what the differences are (if any) between a butter x butter BEL and a lesser X lesser BEL or even a butter x lesser BEL?

Most of the pictures I have been able to find with my weak google-fu are just labled BEL with no listings of the parents so I just wondered.


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,


Jamie,


Can I ask your opinion on what the differences are (if any) between a butter x butter BEL and a lesser X lesser BEL or even a butter x lesser BEL?

Most of the pictures I have been able to find with my weak google-fu are just labled BEL with no listings of the parents so I just wondered.


dr del

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Out of those you mentioned, the super Lesser is the only one I have seen in person. I can say its a pure white snake with bright blue eyes. Somebody else will have to answer to the super butter and the butter x lesser.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I don't get any of this post.

What do Fires have to do with Butters and Lessers?

How do all of those you mentioned have the same super form?

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Fires have nothing to do with butters and lessers except for the fact that they make a lucy. I was just saying that all this confusion forced me to look elsewhere on a snake that makes an all white snake. I have been wondering the differences for months now...here is my thread from back in the day

As far as i know/have seen lessers and butters and mojaves make a BEL...and according to RDR phantoms also make a BEL...and doesnt russo have a snake the makes a BEL

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Originally Posted by mricyfire

Fires have nothing to do with butters and lessers except for the fact that they make a lucy. I was just saying that all this confusion forced me to look elsewhere on a snake that makes an all white snake. I have been wondering the differences for months now...here is my thread from back in the day

As far as i know/have seen lessers and butters and mojaves make a BEL...and according to RDR phantoms also make a BEL...and doesnt russo have a snake the makes a BEL

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Yes, het Russo make BELs. Super Phantoms are NOT all white snakes (see Ralphs Super Phantom male here).

Butter X Butter = ?
Lesser X Butter = ?

Not too brushed up on the genetics of these but very interested in them.

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Originally Posted by ConstrAddiction

Butter X Butter = ?
Lesser X Butter = ?

Not too brushed up on the genetics of these but very interested in them.

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Both=Blue Eye Lucy

Fires make the Black eyed Leucistic - but this snake is not pure white either, normally has some yellow on it.

So does the butter X butter have the same clean look as lesser's?

it appears as though they do from the pics